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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Testosterone Basics & Questions
Standard E2 test vs. Sensitive E2 test
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<blockquote data-quote="tareload" data-source="post: 247958"><p>Here's an old post that should help:</p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://forums.t-nation.com/t/are-these-side-effects-from-hcg-and-or-anastrozole/257850/159[/URL]</p><p></p><p>Since TNation now has these posts as Member's only I will reproduce the post for those who don't have access.</p><p></p><p>=====</p><p></p><p></p><p>Hi, great question. I’ve listened to the lectures and I understand how this comment can be frustrating:</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>It’s going to be extremely difficult for someone not trained in the field to try to make sense of this. This issue is further clouded by the fact that no distinction between RIA and LC/MS estradiol methods is being made.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Let’s go to a definitive study of over 3,000 “normal” men age 40 and over:</p><p></p><p></p><p><a href="https://eje.bioscientifica.com/view/journals/eje/166/6/983.xml" target="_blank">Comparison of serum testosterone and estradiol measurements in 3174 European men using platform immunoassay and mass spectrometry; relevance for the diagnostics in aging men.</a></p><p></p><p><img src="https://global.discourse-cdn.com/tnation/uploads/default/original/3X/3/c/3c639f4a8be4e5c86450257c568df74b9a30935a.png" class="bbImage" alt="" data-url="https://global.discourse-cdn.com/tnation/uploads/default/original/3X/3/c/3c639f4a8be4e5c86450257c568df74b9a30935a.png" style="" /></p><p></p><p></p><p>Go straight to the 99%+tile for testosterone and E2 (Fig. 1 of paper). You can see men top out at 35 nmol/l (T) and 150 pmol/l (E2). Converting this to more commonly used units (on this forum) we get about 1010 ng/dl (Test) and 40.9 pg/ml (E2). That’s a ratio of about 25, which is a function of aromatization (obesity, etc). Compare these values against Arup’s (reference laboratory) upper range:</p><p></p><p> </p><h3>[URL unfurl="true"]https://ltd.aruplab.com/Tests/Pub/0093247[/URL]</h3><p></p><p> </p><p>[ATTACH=full]29837[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p></p><p>Also compare the T/E2(LCMS) ratio computed above to the average ratio in Table 1:</p><p></p><p><img src="https://global.discourse-cdn.com/tnation/uploads/default/optimized/3X/6/c/6c845523bfddcea048583871cbef7ff335ed72e4_2_690x228.png" class="bbImage" alt="" data-url="https://global.discourse-cdn.com/tnation/uploads/default/optimized/3X/6/c/6c845523bfddcea048583871cbef7ff335ed72e4_2_690x228.png" style="" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Look at these parity plots (as they are typically called). Below, you can see the RIA method for testosterone matches well against LC/MS method. Each point is an individual. E2 immunoassay (non-sensitive) is typically (majority of folks) but not always higher than the LC-MS (sensitive) E2 test. Some of these guys are below the parity line on the plots below.</p><p></p><p><img src="https://global.discourse-cdn.com/tnation/uploads/default/optimized/3X/b/7/b735fe0750a19ae93cc9e498a162d60c623e4518_2_301x500.png" class="bbImage" alt="" data-url="https://global.discourse-cdn.com/tnation/uploads/default/optimized/3X/b/7/b735fe0750a19ae93cc9e498a162d60c623e4518_2_301x500.png" style="" /></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ok, let’s take an example of some freak 20 year old walking around with total testosterone level of 1500 ng/dl and assume his aromatization rate is normal (T/ LCMS E2 ratio of 25). Using LC/MS E2 assay he would measure about 60.7 pg/ml (1500/1010*40.9). Now let’s say he gets E2 tested using typical RIA method instead of LC/MS method. Using correlation in second panel of Fig. 3 above we get:</p><p></p><p></p><p>E2 (RIA method) = 4.28 + 1.19*60.7 = 76.5 pg/ml estradiol</p><p></p><p></p><p>So are “most” 20-25 year olds walking around with estradiol levels of 75-100? Well we need to qualify which estradiol test we are talking about and the units. Using gold standard LC/MS method accurate for men, the answer is NO. But in the example calculation above I do demonstrate it’s possible using RIA method. For young men with reasonably high T levels and also higher aromatization ratios, it’s also possible but would seem an exception rather than the rule.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The Devil is in the Details so you can’t throw out numbers <strong>unless you qualify the units AND the method when it comes to estradiol.</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>EDIT: a rather long-winded post to demonstrate the answer to the question. Going straight to Arup’s website (link above), the VAST majority of males over 18 are walking around with actual estradiol levels between 10-42 pg/ml (LC/MS method).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tareload, post: 247958"] Here's an old post that should help: [URL unfurl="true"]https://forums.t-nation.com/t/are-these-side-effects-from-hcg-and-or-anastrozole/257850/159[/URL] Since TNation now has these posts as Member's only I will reproduce the post for those who don't have access. ===== Hi, great question. I’ve listened to the lectures and I understand how this comment can be frustrating: It’s going to be extremely difficult for someone not trained in the field to try to make sense of this. This issue is further clouded by the fact that no distinction between RIA and LC/MS estradiol methods is being made. Let’s go to a definitive study of over 3,000 “normal” men age 40 and over: [URL='https://eje.bioscientifica.com/view/journals/eje/166/6/983.xml']Comparison of serum testosterone and estradiol measurements in 3174 European men using platform immunoassay and mass spectrometry; relevance for the diagnostics in aging men.[/URL] [IMG]https://global.discourse-cdn.com/tnation/uploads/default/original/3X/3/c/3c639f4a8be4e5c86450257c568df74b9a30935a.png[/IMG] Go straight to the 99%+tile for testosterone and E2 (Fig. 1 of paper). You can see men top out at 35 nmol/l (T) and 150 pmol/l (E2). Converting this to more commonly used units (on this forum) we get about 1010 ng/dl (Test) and 40.9 pg/ml (E2). That’s a ratio of about 25, which is a function of aromatization (obesity, etc). Compare these values against Arup’s (reference laboratory) upper range: [HEADING=2][URL unfurl="true"]https://ltd.aruplab.com/Tests/Pub/0093247[/URL][/HEADING] [ATTACH type="full" alt="1678199854807.png"]29837[/ATTACH] Also compare the T/E2(LCMS) ratio computed above to the average ratio in Table 1: [IMG]https://global.discourse-cdn.com/tnation/uploads/default/optimized/3X/6/c/6c845523bfddcea048583871cbef7ff335ed72e4_2_690x228.png[/IMG] Look at these parity plots (as they are typically called). Below, you can see the RIA method for testosterone matches well against LC/MS method. Each point is an individual. E2 immunoassay (non-sensitive) is typically (majority of folks) but not always higher than the LC-MS (sensitive) E2 test. Some of these guys are below the parity line on the plots below. [IMG]https://global.discourse-cdn.com/tnation/uploads/default/optimized/3X/b/7/b735fe0750a19ae93cc9e498a162d60c623e4518_2_301x500.png[/IMG] Ok, let’s take an example of some freak 20 year old walking around with total testosterone level of 1500 ng/dl and assume his aromatization rate is normal (T/ LCMS E2 ratio of 25). Using LC/MS E2 assay he would measure about 60.7 pg/ml (1500/1010*40.9). Now let’s say he gets E2 tested using typical RIA method instead of LC/MS method. Using correlation in second panel of Fig. 3 above we get: E2 (RIA method) = 4.28 + 1.19*60.7 = 76.5 pg/ml estradiol So are “most” 20-25 year olds walking around with estradiol levels of 75-100? Well we need to qualify which estradiol test we are talking about and the units. Using gold standard LC/MS method accurate for men, the answer is NO. But in the example calculation above I do demonstrate it’s possible using RIA method. For young men with reasonably high T levels and also higher aromatization ratios, it’s also possible but would seem an exception rather than the rule. The Devil is in the Details so you can’t throw out numbers [B]unless you qualify the units AND the method when it comes to estradiol.[/B] EDIT: a rather long-winded post to demonstrate the answer to the question. Going straight to Arup’s website (link above), the VAST majority of males over 18 are walking around with actual estradiol levels between 10-42 pg/ml (LC/MS method). [/QUOTE]
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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Testosterone Basics & Questions
Standard E2 test vs. Sensitive E2 test
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