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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Testosterone Basics & Questions
Shallow Testosterone IM versus SubQ Injections - Lab Results
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<blockquote data-quote="madman" data-source="post: 211259" data-attributes="member: 13851"><p><strong><em>A note on the testosterone testing. In June the labs did not use the LC/MS/MS for the Total Testosterone and did not use the Ultra Filtration on the Free T. </em></strong> <strong><em>Therefore, I did not use those assays on this round of testing so the testing would be apples to apples.</em></strong></p><p></p><p>When it comes to comparing blood levels you should have used the most accurate assays TT (LC-MS/MS) and FT (Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration) to see where your levels truly sat.</p><p></p><p>We can nitpick here on the TT as there should not be a significant difference between the standard and LC-MS/MS unless we get into the lower-end ranges.</p><p></p><p>Free T is a different story as the piss poor direct immunoassay is inaccurate and should not be used.....period!</p><p></p><p>Your trough TT(IM) 1055--->778 ng/dL (SUB-Q).....TT dropped 277 ng/dL which is a fair amount but far from drastic.</p><p></p><p>Not going to even compare the FT results as it means nothing seeing as you used the piss poor direct immunoassay.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong><em>Total T and Free T dropped significantly on SubQ. Total T dropped 26.8% while Free T fell 47.2%.</em></strong><em><strong> While the SubQ testosterone numbers are not terrible, they are much lower that the testosterone on shallow IM</strong></em></p><p></p><p>Your TT dropped 277 ng/dL and your SHBG barely budged.....highly doubtful your FT was cut almost in half.</p><p></p><p>Just to get a rough idea:</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]17389[/ATTACH]</p><p>[ATTACH=full]17390[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong><em>*After reading numerous articles and opinions over the last year about the <u>differences and variances in shallow IM verse SubQ it got me thinking maybe I should try the SubQ route</u>. A study from UC showed increased testosterone, lower E2, and lower HCT injecting SubQ as compared to shallow IM. In the study there was no change in PSA. </em></strong></p><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p><strong><em>*You'll notice that my labs under the shallow IM were pretty good so one might ask why I would change if I was so dialed in........<u>I guess curious to see if I could improve the numbers</u>. <u>I figured if the numbers did not impress me I would just go back to the shallow IM which I knew worked for me</u>.</em></strong></p><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p><strong><em>*Plus, regardless of the number, it is about how I feel that is the most important and not a number.</em></strong></p><p></p><p>When it comes to how you feel.....most definitely but you have to admit that a big part of your trial was to compare NUMBERS!</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong><em>How do I feel? <u> I feel pretty good but not as good as I felt on the shallow IM injections</u>. I don't feel like I have quite the energy I had on shallow IM. I've never had an acne problem but I did notice some small acne on my chest and back that I did not have on the shallow IM. I didn't like that.</em></strong></p><p></p><p>As you and many that have been on the forum long enough should very well know when comparing labs:</p><p></p><p><strong>1. <em>The protocol needs to be kept the same (ester/dose T/injection frequency)</em></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>2</strong>. <strong><em>4-6 weeks for blood levels to stabilize before getting blood work done (6 weeks)</em></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>3.</strong> <strong><em>Testing is done at the true trough</em></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>4.</strong> <strong><em>Using the same lab</em></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>5.</strong> <strong><em>Using the same assays (most accurate) TT/e2 (LC-MS/MS) and FT (Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration)</em></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>6.</strong> <strong><em>6. Each protocol needs to be given 12 weeks</em></strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>Then and only then can you make a true comparison between injecting IM vs SUB-Q!</p><p></p><p>You were<strong> <em>on point from 1-4</em></strong> but <strong><em>out to lunch on 5</em> </strong>especially when it comes to FT and <strong><em>bailed out on 6.</em></strong></p><p></p><p>At least you tried strictly sub-q and know that you do not feel as good overall when compared to IM.</p><p></p><p>Let alone injecting strictly sub-q has you hitting a lower TT 1055--->778 ng/dL which would result in a lower FT but highly doubtful your FT dropped significantly.</p><p></p><p>Good job overall but you should have known better not to waste your time using a piss poor known to be inaccurate assay when it comes to testing your FT.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="madman, post: 211259, member: 13851"] [B][I]A note on the testosterone testing. In June the labs did not use the LC/MS/MS for the Total Testosterone and did not use the Ultra Filtration on the Free T. [/I][/B] [B][I]Therefore, I did not use those assays on this round of testing so the testing would be apples to apples.[/I][/B] When it comes to comparing blood levels you should have used the most accurate assays TT (LC-MS/MS) and FT (Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration) to see where your levels truly sat. We can nitpick here on the TT as there should not be a significant difference between the standard and LC-MS/MS unless we get into the lower-end ranges. Free T is a different story as the piss poor direct immunoassay is inaccurate and should not be used.....period! Your trough TT(IM) 1055--->778 ng/dL (SUB-Q).....TT dropped 277 ng/dL which is a fair amount but far from drastic. Not going to even compare the FT results as it means nothing seeing as you used the piss poor direct immunoassay. [B][I]Total T and Free T dropped significantly on SubQ. Total T dropped 26.8% while Free T fell 47.2%.[/I][/B][I][B] While the SubQ testosterone numbers are not terrible, they are much lower that the testosterone on shallow IM[/B][/I] Your TT dropped 277 ng/dL and your SHBG barely budged.....highly doubtful your FT was cut almost in half. Just to get a rough idea: [ATTACH type="full" alt="Screenshot (8835).png"]17389[/ATTACH] [ATTACH type="full" alt="Screenshot (8837).png"]17390[/ATTACH] [B][I]*After reading numerous articles and opinions over the last year about the [U]differences and variances in shallow IM verse SubQ it got me thinking maybe I should try the SubQ route[/U]. A study from UC showed increased testosterone, lower E2, and lower HCT injecting SubQ as compared to shallow IM. In the study there was no change in PSA. *You'll notice that my labs under the shallow IM were pretty good so one might ask why I would change if I was so dialed in........[U]I guess curious to see if I could improve the numbers[/U]. [U]I figured if the numbers did not impress me I would just go back to the shallow IM which I knew worked for me[/U]. *Plus, regardless of the number, it is about how I feel that is the most important and not a number.[/I][/B] When it comes to how you feel.....most definitely but you have to admit that a big part of your trial was to compare NUMBERS! [B][I]How do I feel? [U] I feel pretty good but not as good as I felt on the shallow IM injections[/U]. I don't feel like I have quite the energy I had on shallow IM. I've never had an acne problem but I did notice some small acne on my chest and back that I did not have on the shallow IM. I didn't like that.[/I][/B] As you and many that have been on the forum long enough should very well know when comparing labs: [B]1. [I]The protocol needs to be kept the same (ester/dose T/injection frequency)[/I] 2[/B]. [B][I]4-6 weeks for blood levels to stabilize before getting blood work done (6 weeks)[/I] 3.[/B] [B][I]Testing is done at the true trough[/I] 4.[/B] [B][I]Using the same lab[/I] 5.[/B] [B][I]Using the same assays (most accurate) TT/e2 (LC-MS/MS) and FT (Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration)[/I] 6.[/B] [B][I]6. Each protocol needs to be given 12 weeks[/I][/B] Then and only then can you make a true comparison between injecting IM vs SUB-Q! You were[B] [I]on point from 1-4[/I][/B] but [B][I]out to lunch on 5[/I] [/B]especially when it comes to FT and [B][I]bailed out on 6.[/I][/B] At least you tried strictly sub-q and know that you do not feel as good overall when compared to IM. Let alone injecting strictly sub-q has you hitting a lower TT 1055--->778 ng/dL which would result in a lower FT but highly doubtful your FT dropped significantly. Good job overall but you should have known better not to waste your time using a piss poor known to be inaccurate assay when it comes to testing your FT. [/QUOTE]
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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
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Shallow Testosterone IM versus SubQ Injections - Lab Results
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