ExcelMale
Menu
Home
What's new
Latest activity
Forums
New posts
Search forums
What's new
New posts
Latest activity
Videos
Lab Tests
Doctor Finder
Buy Books
About Us
Men’s Health Coaching
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
New posts
Search forums
Menu
Log in
Register
Navigation
Install the app
Install
More options
Contact us
Close Menu
Forums
Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Blood Test Discussion
My TRT Odyssey: Lab Results and More
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="madman" data-source="post: 272242" data-attributes="member: 13851"><p><em><strong>Assuming my response is proportional to dose, increasing from 140 to 175 mg should only move my free T from 17 to 21 ng/dL. With EOD SC injections, that trough value shouldn't be too far off my average value either. My friend hits 27 ng/dL trough with 160 mg a week EOD, so I think I'm just a below average responder. According to my calculations, I would predict needing a dose of 222 mg weekly (!!) to reach my buddy's 27 ng/dL trough free T on this EOD protocol.</strong></em></p><p></p><p></p><p>May very well be but I would still go with a 20-25 mg T/week increase in dose.</p><p></p><p>Yes, you still have room to bring up your FT but keep in mind pushing your trough up towards the 30s is very high.</p><p></p><p>No natty healthy young male is running around with a trough FT 30 ng/dL.</p><p></p><p>Look up where the 50-97.5 TH percentile sits!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><em><strong><em>35 mg a week sounds like a big jump, but does 4 ng/dL free T sound like a huge jump? I don't think it's too crazy and neither did Ben at Defy. Yes, my total T is going to be high, but I have high SHBG so I ignore total T. I just recorded a robust total T of 606 ng/dL with 5 ng/dL free T -- <u>in my opinion, Total T is worthless for this process of diagnosing and treating low T</u>. <u>I probably wouldn't even order it if it wasn't bundled with the Free T test. Total T is the noise that distracts from the signal</u>.</em></strong></em></p><p></p><p></p><p>So your pre-trt SHBG was absurdly high when you were hitting a robust TT 606 ng/dL?</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]40413[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p></p><p>On your most recent labs, your SHBG 44 nmol/L is highish but far from very high, and with a very high trough TT 893 ng/dL, you are still hitting a healthy/higher-end trough FT 17 ng/dL which is higher than where a healthy young male would sit and this it at the peak!</p><p></p><p>Even then the natty peak is short-lived!</p><p></p><p>If you end up with a trough FT 21 ng/dL on your new protocol then you would be on the top-end (cFTV).</p><p></p><p>No need to tell me when it comes to looking at TT/FT, altered SHBG, SHBG: T binding let alone assays/reference ranges as I was the one preaching the importance of FT since I came on the forum.</p><p></p><p>Many are still clueless when it comes to assays, reference ranges, and so on.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong><em>About the range of Free T that different practitioners prefer, I have been following this TRT space closely for two years now and I still don't know who to believe. We have the seeming voices of reason that advocate for staying within reference ranges and we have the TOT practitioners who have collectively many, many thousands of men that by their account are thriving in supraphysiologic territory. You know who they are and what ranges they like, but just as an example, I took the data highpull from t-nation posted on his patients' labs and calculated a simple average of the values. Here they are, keeping in mind these are a mix of E3.5D and E7D protocols when you see these trough values:</em></strong></p><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p><strong><em>Total T: 1029 ng/dL</em></strong></p><p><strong><em>Free T (EqD): 242 pg/mL</em></strong></p><p><strong><em>SHBG: 25 nmol/L</em></strong></p><p><strong><em>Free T (calc): 29 ng/dL</em></strong></p><p><strong><em>E2: 57 pg/mL</em></strong></p><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p><strong><em>Highpull states that these men are "all happy with their results" and I believe him, just like I believe Dave Lee and others when they share details of their TRT practices. I also believe the men who have negative side effects at high doses and fix all their woes by reducing their dose to 100 mg or less weekly.</em></strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>Would not get too caught up on all these so-called HRT gurus let alone forums on the internet as they represent a small slice of the HRT pie.</p><p></p><p>I know numerous top uros and many outside of the net that have 100s and 100s of patients that do well with trough FT 16-31 ng/dL range keeping in mind the troughs/injection frequency of the protocol.</p><p></p><p>Far from common that everyone needs to be hitting this absurd trough 30+ ng/dL to experience relief/improvement of low-T symptoms and feel great overall.</p><p></p><p>Just to be clear hitting a trough FT 30 ng/dL is absurd on a once-weekly protocol.</p><p></p><p>Even when injecting twice weekly (every 3.5 days) is very high.</p><p></p><p>Pure nonsense pushed by the so-called optimal is where it's at clan!</p><p></p><p>My doctor is one of the top uros in Canada and has been treating men for low-T since the early 2000s.</p><p></p><p>Considered a pioneer when it comes to subcutaneous injections as he was one of the first in Canada to use this method almost 2 decades ago!</p><p></p><p>He has treated 100s of men and you would be hard-pressed to find many running those absurdly high trough FT levels.</p><p></p><p>He would agree that many tend to do better on the higher end but within reason.</p><p></p><p>Comes down to the individual.</p><p></p><p>Too many are caught up on those forums which are loaded with misinformation let alone many of those blast-n cruizerzzz preaching that more T is better mentality.</p><p></p><p>Complete shit show!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><em><strong>It is difficult to reconcile these two camps by reading and analysis alone or I would have by now. <u>I am going to have to experience these things for myself, and for me, I think that looks like gradually raising the dose until things start getting worse. I have literally no side effects right now as I stated earlier, so naturally, I want to explore in the direction of more</u>.</strong></em></p><p><em><strong>Your point about the benefits of TRT taking 3-6 months to manifest is well taken. I am not so much trying to rush that process as I am trying to reach free T levels that will be maximally beneficial and discovering what levels and doses I can comfortably tolerate. At what point would it start negatively affecting things like sleep, BP, heart rate, skin, etc? There's only one way to find out.</strong></em></p><p></p><p></p><p>Agree and yes this is the only way you would know.</p><p></p><p>As long as one has given the protocol a fighting chance (12 weeks) blood markers remain healthy, minus any sides and they feel there may be room for improvement then it would make sense to bring up your trough FT further.</p><p></p><p>Shitkicker here is you and most have never even given the protocol a fighting chance.</p><p></p><p>You are already eager to bump up your dose 8 weeks in.</p><p></p><p>You have been on here long enough to know that this is a big mistake.</p><p></p><p>If your trough FT level was too low 6 weeks in I would say go nuts and increase your dose.</p><p></p><p>Again hormones are in flux during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized and it is common to experience ups/downs during the transition as the body is trying to adjust.</p><p></p><p>More importantly, once levels have stabilized it will still take time (a few months or longer) for the body to adapt to the new set-point and this is the critical time period when one needs to gauge how they truly feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-T symptoms and overall well-being.</p><p></p><p>Otherwise, you will never know whether the protocol was truly a success or failure.</p><p></p><p>This is the main reason why many struggle in the long run.</p><p></p><p>Many lack the understanding of how exogenous T works.</p><p></p><p>Misinformed and brainwashed.</p><p></p><p>I do not feel well 6-8 weeks in time to increase my dose.</p><p></p><p>My libido/erectile function is not where it is at 6-8 weeks in time to increase my dose.</p><p></p><p>My trough TT needs to be 1000+ ng/dL.</p><p></p><p>My trough FT is only 20 ng/dL I need to get to that magical 30 ng/dL.</p><p></p><p>You get the point!</p><p></p><p>As I have stated previously do what you feel is best for YOU!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="madman, post: 272242, member: 13851"] [I][B]Assuming my response is proportional to dose, increasing from 140 to 175 mg should only move my free T from 17 to 21 ng/dL. With EOD SC injections, that trough value shouldn't be too far off my average value either. My friend hits 27 ng/dL trough with 160 mg a week EOD, so I think I'm just a below average responder. According to my calculations, I would predict needing a dose of 222 mg weekly (!!) to reach my buddy's 27 ng/dL trough free T on this EOD protocol.[/B][/I] May very well be but I would still go with a 20-25 mg T/week increase in dose. Yes, you still have room to bring up your FT but keep in mind pushing your trough up towards the 30s is very high. No natty healthy young male is running around with a trough FT 30 ng/dL. Look up where the 50-97.5 TH percentile sits! [I][B][I]35 mg a week sounds like a big jump, but does 4 ng/dL free T sound like a huge jump? I don't think it's too crazy and neither did Ben at Defy. Yes, my total T is going to be high, but I have high SHBG so I ignore total T. I just recorded a robust total T of 606 ng/dL with 5 ng/dL free T -- [U]in my opinion, Total T is worthless for this process of diagnosing and treating low T[/U]. [U]I probably wouldn't even order it if it wasn't bundled with the Free T test. Total T is the noise that distracts from the signal[/U].[/I][/B][/I] So your pre-trt SHBG was absurdly high when you were hitting a robust TT 606 ng/dL? [ATTACH type="full" alt="Screenshot (31810).png"]40413[/ATTACH] On your most recent labs, your SHBG 44 nmol/L is highish but far from very high, and with a very high trough TT 893 ng/dL, you are still hitting a healthy/higher-end trough FT 17 ng/dL which is higher than where a healthy young male would sit and this it at the peak! Even then the natty peak is short-lived! If you end up with a trough FT 21 ng/dL on your new protocol then you would be on the top-end (cFTV). No need to tell me when it comes to looking at TT/FT, altered SHBG, SHBG: T binding let alone assays/reference ranges as I was the one preaching the importance of FT since I came on the forum. Many are still clueless when it comes to assays, reference ranges, and so on. [B][I]About the range of Free T that different practitioners prefer, I have been following this TRT space closely for two years now and I still don't know who to believe. We have the seeming voices of reason that advocate for staying within reference ranges and we have the TOT practitioners who have collectively many, many thousands of men that by their account are thriving in supraphysiologic territory. You know who they are and what ranges they like, but just as an example, I took the data highpull from t-nation posted on his patients' labs and calculated a simple average of the values. Here they are, keeping in mind these are a mix of E3.5D and E7D protocols when you see these trough values: Total T: 1029 ng/dL Free T (EqD): 242 pg/mL SHBG: 25 nmol/L Free T (calc): 29 ng/dL E2: 57 pg/mL Highpull states that these men are "all happy with their results" and I believe him, just like I believe Dave Lee and others when they share details of their TRT practices. I also believe the men who have negative side effects at high doses and fix all their woes by reducing their dose to 100 mg or less weekly.[/I][/B] Would not get too caught up on all these so-called HRT gurus let alone forums on the internet as they represent a small slice of the HRT pie. I know numerous top uros and many outside of the net that have 100s and 100s of patients that do well with trough FT 16-31 ng/dL range keeping in mind the troughs/injection frequency of the protocol. Far from common that everyone needs to be hitting this absurd trough 30+ ng/dL to experience relief/improvement of low-T symptoms and feel great overall. Just to be clear hitting a trough FT 30 ng/dL is absurd on a once-weekly protocol. Even when injecting twice weekly (every 3.5 days) is very high. Pure nonsense pushed by the so-called optimal is where it's at clan! My doctor is one of the top uros in Canada and has been treating men for low-T since the early 2000s. Considered a pioneer when it comes to subcutaneous injections as he was one of the first in Canada to use this method almost 2 decades ago! He has treated 100s of men and you would be hard-pressed to find many running those absurdly high trough FT levels. He would agree that many tend to do better on the higher end but within reason. Comes down to the individual. Too many are caught up on those forums which are loaded with misinformation let alone many of those blast-n cruizerzzz preaching that more T is better mentality. Complete shit show! [I][B]It is difficult to reconcile these two camps by reading and analysis alone or I would have by now. [U]I am going to have to experience these things for myself, and for me, I think that looks like gradually raising the dose until things start getting worse. I have literally no side effects right now as I stated earlier, so naturally, I want to explore in the direction of more[/U]. Your point about the benefits of TRT taking 3-6 months to manifest is well taken. I am not so much trying to rush that process as I am trying to reach free T levels that will be maximally beneficial and discovering what levels and doses I can comfortably tolerate. At what point would it start negatively affecting things like sleep, BP, heart rate, skin, etc? There's only one way to find out.[/B][/I] Agree and yes this is the only way you would know. As long as one has given the protocol a fighting chance (12 weeks) blood markers remain healthy, minus any sides and they feel there may be room for improvement then it would make sense to bring up your trough FT further. Shitkicker here is you and most have never even given the protocol a fighting chance. You are already eager to bump up your dose 8 weeks in. You have been on here long enough to know that this is a big mistake. If your trough FT level was too low 6 weeks in I would say go nuts and increase your dose. Again hormones are in flux during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized and it is common to experience ups/downs during the transition as the body is trying to adjust. More importantly, once levels have stabilized it will still take time (a few months or longer) for the body to adapt to the new set-point and this is the critical time period when one needs to gauge how they truly feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-T symptoms and overall well-being. Otherwise, you will never know whether the protocol was truly a success or failure. This is the main reason why many struggle in the long run. Many lack the understanding of how exogenous T works. Misinformed and brainwashed. I do not feel well 6-8 weeks in time to increase my dose. My libido/erectile function is not where it is at 6-8 weeks in time to increase my dose. My trough TT needs to be 1000+ ng/dL. My trough FT is only 20 ng/dL I need to get to that magical 30 ng/dL. You get the point! As I have stated previously do what you feel is best for YOU! [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Share this page
Facebook
Twitter
Reddit
Pinterest
Tumblr
WhatsApp
Email
Share
Link
Sponsors
Forums
Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Blood Test Discussion
My TRT Odyssey: Lab Results and More
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
Accept
Learn more…
Top