Higher numbers needed

[Tim L]

I am 53 years old, business owner, in the gym 3 days a week. I have a rock soild diet, and in great physical shape. Been on a TRT program for over 1 year. I have been monitoring my blood every 60-90 days. I started with a low doseage of gel 20Ml per day. My base line when started was 474 (Total).

I have been as low as 296/ 6.4, I believe this low was due to how and where I was applying. My best numbers to date are at 653/ 19.5 free.this was due to me applying on my scrotum area. I am using a compound cream 300mg per day
Here are my other numbers as of 5-7-15
total 653
free 19.5
Dihydrotestost 291
DHTA 278
Estradiol 26.9
PSA .05
IGF-1 140
IGR-BP3 3641
I am 6-2" , 200lb

Please comment and let me know what I should be doing in order to get my numbers higher. I understand alot of you are on injectables, is it realistic to get higher numbers from creams?
Thank you
Tim L

 

[bigfred32]

Out of curiosity, why do you want higher numbers?

How do you feel?

Im on 150mg compounded cream daily and average in the high 600-700 range and feel great in all areas related to TRT and overall well being.
If your on a good protocol and your balanced you should feel fantastic. Im the same age as you and also hit gym 3 days a week and cardio 6 with great results.
Your DHT seems really high, probably because your applying it to your nut sack. Watch out for PSA elevation numbers that high, i notice I break out alittle with acne when my DHT gets high.

 

[Tim L]

Why do I need higher #s?
While I see and feel better improvements from 400 to 600. I am not feeling a improvement in the Libido area. Erections are great and performance during.
Also my energy is low in the early to mid afternoons. I want to gain more lean muscle.( is the Goal)
I agree my DHT is high due to where I am applying. My PSA #s are rock solid however
No Acne issues


total 653 348- 1197
free 19.5 7.2 - 24
Dihydrotestost 291
DHTA 278 71.6 - 375.4
Estradiol 26.9 7.6 - 42.6
PSA .05 0.0 - 4.0
IGF-1 140 61 -200
IGR-BP3 3641 2251 - 5808




I have tried applying to other areas but with little success, Comments?

 

[Gene Devine]

Can you use the edit button and add reference ranges for each lab?

 

[Jay]

Tim,

I was on cream 20% six clicks a day. my DHT jumped real high like you (290 range 3-85). As a result my Blood Pressure also jumped to 180/120 (had it checked by several sources over several weeks). I since switched to injections 160 mg week and DHT went down to 47. As a result, my BP dropped to 130/80. Keep an eye on BP, it could have just been me...not sure if DHT has any affect on BP. Nelson or Gene might know more on this.

Jay

 

[HarryCat]

Tim,

I was on cream 20% six clicks a day. my DHT jumped real high like you (290 range 3-85). As a result my Blood Pressure also jumped to 180/120 (had it checked by several sources over several weeks). I since switched to injections 160 mg week and DHT went down to 47. As a result, my BP dropped to 130/80. Keep an eye on BP, it could have just been me...not sure if DHT has any affect on BP. Nelson or Gene might know more on this.

Jay

Did you notice a difference in libido?

 

[HarryCat]

I am using a compound cream 300mg per day

What percentage concentration T cream are you using?

 

[Tim L]

I started out with a lower dosage, but soon found I needed a higher amount to keep my numbers up. I started a whole wellness program a year and a half ago. My BP then was like 128/78, My current BP is 108/74
I am using a local Compound lab to produce mine. About 6 months ago I switch labs because I was questioning the consistency of the product. I believe my current lab is a good one plus my wife has been using them for years.They are mixing up 150 mg per ml for me . I am using 2 ml daily = 300mg. I am concerned about the DHT, but have been on a few supplements to lower the number. I think it would be higher otherwise.

 

[HarryCat]

How long after applying the cream do you get a blood draw? The serum concentration will peak 2-3 hours after applying. If you don't get you blood drawn at the same time after application that can have a big effect on you results.

Plus, Nelson recently posted about a study that showed a wide variation is 2 hour serum concentration for Androgel, so that could potentially apply to the cream as well.
Large Testosterone Blood Level Variations Found with the Use of Androgel


As you probably already know, the best way to get consistent high levels would be to switch to injections.

 

[Tim L]

I apply before bed around 9pm, All of my blood test have been @ 7am the next morning.
I am trying to find out what are the highest numbers possible with creams/gels?
Before I switch to injections.
Thank you for your help
Tim

 

[HarryCat]

I apply 0.75ml of 15% cream in the morning after a shower. 2 hours later my TT is usually about 500 at Quest, where the reference range is 250-827. The last time I was tested, I waited 3 hours and my level was at 877, over the top of the range.

FWIW, I don't fell any improvement in libido at these levels.

 

[Vettester Chris]

In my own experiences, much of the libido subject tends to be weighted on E2. Once total and free test levels are in a decent area, it's equally as important to get your E2 dialed in. Based on your posted labs, that doesn't appear to be an E2 sensitive - male specific assay, so it's a bit speculative to have any idea where your overall E2 really sits.

 

[Tim L]

I understand I need more blood work data. I will post updates as soon as I have them.
Thank you for your help
Tim

 

[Tim L]

Updates on numbers
I understand I need to get a full blood report done in order to have a complete picture. In the mean time I
have some updates, still not complete but working on it.

5-7-15 7-9-15
total 653 717
free 19.5 25.8
Dihydrotestost 291 249
DHTA 278 263.8
Estradiol 26.9 38.8
PSA .05 0.5
IGF-1 140 160
IGR-BP3 3641 4100

this was a 60 day window between test
I understand the DHT # is high but went down
The Estradiol did go up but not much
I am applying on my scrotum area, using a compound cream 300mg per day at bed time (approx 5 months now)

Question
1.My energy during the day is still low, Maybe apply additional on shoulders in Am?
2. Can any one tell me, on average what I can expect by using cream? Max numbers? (on the fence w/ injecting)
3. What could I take to lower my DHT #'s ?

Thanks for everyones comments and input to date.
Tim

 

[ERO]

I would not worry about lowering your DHT since your PSA is only at 0.5. High DHT is only a problem if you have a high PSA score and/or you are loosing your hair. DHT is needed for libido.

Was this E2 test the sensitive test?

Low energy *might* be due to things unrelated to your TRT, say for example, thyroid issues or adrenal issues.

 

[HarryCat]

Agree with ERO, have you had any thyroid labs done?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Tim

I would not get on TRT with your lab values.

Explore sleep hygiene issues and get your free T3 and TSH measured if you can.

 

[Tim L]

I would not get on TRT with your lab values
? Not sure what you mean? I am on a TRT

I am working on getting updates on all of my levels
I did find my last year #'s for the following

TSH 1.350 Ref 0.450 - 4.500
T4, Free(Direct) 1.34 Ref 0.82 - 1.77
Thyroxine (T4) 8.7 Ref 4.5 - 12.0
T3 Uptake 28 Ref 24-39
Free Thyroxine Index 2.4 Ref 1.2-4.9
Comments?

Thanks for everyones comments and input to date.
Tim

 

[Vince Carter]

I don't see anything wrong with your Thyroid, I will defer to others more in the know that I am. I might suggest next tests to be a 4x Salivary Cortisol test, and an added test for DHEA-S, and SHBG.

With your updated numbers....any improvement how you feel? I'd hold on changing to injectables until you're run as far as you can on the cream.