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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Blood Test Discussion
high hematocrit/hemoglobin - what to do
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<blockquote data-quote="tareload" data-source="post: 216114"><p>[USER=40983]@Jurek Kletsy[/USER]</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.excelmale.com/forum/threads/the-effect-of-route-of-testosterone-on-changes-in-hematocrit.24628/post-214623[/URL]</p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.excelmale.com/forum/threads/high-hematocrit-increases-blood-viscosity-does-that-matter-in-men-on-trt-effect-of-altitude.18114/[/URL]</p><p></p><p>Maybe these links will help, maybe not. Gory detail about what elevated Hct means (as you correctly point out - erythrocytosis, Not PV). Higher Hct means higher blood viscosity which means more work for your heart. Integrate (math term for area under the curve) that extra work over 20 years and it may or may not be a problem for you as an individual. There are many papers looking at the optimal Hct for various animals which try to balance the extra oxygen carrying capacity vs the extra blood viscosity - hence tradeoff analysis.</p><p></p><p>The study you are looking for does not exist. What's the objective function? Live as long as possible; have fun for 10 years then drop dead? Hard to really define.</p><p></p><p>But that doesn't stop the astute researcher or hobbyist from being cautious especially if they have other issues like inflammation, elevated cRP--->increased plasma viscosity.</p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://forums.t-nation.com/t/does-high-hematocrit-lead-to-complications-for-men-on-trt/268171[/URL]</p><p></p><p>From this link:</p><p></p><p><em>The primary concern with elevated blood viscosity is hypertension, increased shear stress to the lumen (I’m sure you are familiar with what that does), and risk of ischemia and reduced perfusion for compromised patients / older patients. Also, what’s the concern with young person running high blood viscosity for years? Ask AAS abusers what the long term implications of elevated Hct are? Integrate out over 20 years the cost of making your heart do extra, measurably more work. Combine that with a patient who has limited vasodilation ability.</em></p><p></p><p> </p><p>So according to this logic, no worries with elevating serum viscosity, just let it ride? For a patient with plenty of mileage on the heart, pre-CHF or CHF, no worries with cranking up the blood viscosity? Harmless?</p><p></p><p><em>This response is lazy and avoids having to discuss the fact the heart is a pump and a pump is designed to operate on a pump curve (just to keep it simple). Depending on the viscosity of the fluid the pump is pumping, you will land on a point on that curve. Surely you understand the long term implications of running a pump too high on the gpm vs hp curve? Any concerns for long term issues if you want that pump in service for a while? We aint talking about a pump in a manufacturing facility that can be replaced rather easily. We are talking about a heart.</em></p><p></p><p><img src="https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/tnation/uploads/default/original/4X/9/2/0/920e90c39b1a4d326b939e4abdb9278bcf34335a.png" class="bbImage" alt="" data-url="https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/tnation/uploads/default/original/4X/9/2/0/920e90c39b1a4d326b939e4abdb9278bcf34335a.png" style="" /></p><p></p><p><em>For folks who talk about optimization, you seem to not understand or ignore the penalty function associated with performance vs longevity. For readers, I’ve shared what I think is important for you to consider. Take care of your cardiovascular system. That means use reasonable caution. Running your Hct above 50, or even 55 is not that. But given the TT levels you guys are recommending, I can see how this little inconvenience causes an issue. Elevated Hct has to be harmless in your practice otherwise you have to have your patients doing an oil drain on a regular, painful basis.</em></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://forums.t-nation.com/t/does-high-hematocrit-lead-to-complications-for-men-on-trt/268171/6[/URL]</p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://forums.t-nation.com/t/does-high-hematocrit-lead-to-complications-for-men-on-trt/268171/7[/URL]</p><p></p><p>...the same Hct in two persons doesn't always equate to the same whole blood viscosity.</p><p><img src="https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/tnation/uploads/default/original/3X/3/b/3b3cf8a8ed7002273b2c3663ffe7e7453fa5fc82.png" class="bbImage" alt="" data-url="https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/tnation/uploads/default/original/3X/3/b/3b3cf8a8ed7002273b2c3663ffe7e7453fa5fc82.png" style="" /></p><p></p><p>Personally, I haven't found a free lunch. There are many times consequences for pushing your physiology outside where it's designed/equilibrated to operate. Not a good everyday long term strategy IMO. If you are going to fiddle, you better be smarter than your body or be very cautious.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tareload, post: 216114"] [USER=40983]@Jurek Kletsy[/USER] [URL unfurl="true"]https://www.excelmale.com/forum/threads/the-effect-of-route-of-testosterone-on-changes-in-hematocrit.24628/post-214623[/URL] [URL unfurl="true"]https://www.excelmale.com/forum/threads/high-hematocrit-increases-blood-viscosity-does-that-matter-in-men-on-trt-effect-of-altitude.18114/[/URL] Maybe these links will help, maybe not. Gory detail about what elevated Hct means (as you correctly point out - erythrocytosis, Not PV). Higher Hct means higher blood viscosity which means more work for your heart. Integrate (math term for area under the curve) that extra work over 20 years and it may or may not be a problem for you as an individual. There are many papers looking at the optimal Hct for various animals which try to balance the extra oxygen carrying capacity vs the extra blood viscosity - hence tradeoff analysis. The study you are looking for does not exist. What's the objective function? Live as long as possible; have fun for 10 years then drop dead? Hard to really define. But that doesn't stop the astute researcher or hobbyist from being cautious especially if they have other issues like inflammation, elevated cRP--->increased plasma viscosity. [URL unfurl="true"]https://forums.t-nation.com/t/does-high-hematocrit-lead-to-complications-for-men-on-trt/268171[/URL] From this link: [I]The primary concern with elevated blood viscosity is hypertension, increased shear stress to the lumen (I’m sure you are familiar with what that does), and risk of ischemia and reduced perfusion for compromised patients / older patients. Also, what’s the concern with young person running high blood viscosity for years? Ask AAS abusers what the long term implications of elevated Hct are? Integrate out over 20 years the cost of making your heart do extra, measurably more work. Combine that with a patient who has limited vasodilation ability.[/I] So according to this logic, no worries with elevating serum viscosity, just let it ride? For a patient with plenty of mileage on the heart, pre-CHF or CHF, no worries with cranking up the blood viscosity? Harmless? [I]This response is lazy and avoids having to discuss the fact the heart is a pump and a pump is designed to operate on a pump curve (just to keep it simple). Depending on the viscosity of the fluid the pump is pumping, you will land on a point on that curve. Surely you understand the long term implications of running a pump too high on the gpm vs hp curve? Any concerns for long term issues if you want that pump in service for a while? We aint talking about a pump in a manufacturing facility that can be replaced rather easily. We are talking about a heart.[/I] [IMG]https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/tnation/uploads/default/original/4X/9/2/0/920e90c39b1a4d326b939e4abdb9278bcf34335a.png[/IMG] [I]For folks who talk about optimization, you seem to not understand or ignore the penalty function associated with performance vs longevity. For readers, I’ve shared what I think is important for you to consider. Take care of your cardiovascular system. That means use reasonable caution. Running your Hct above 50, or even 55 is not that. But given the TT levels you guys are recommending, I can see how this little inconvenience causes an issue. Elevated Hct has to be harmless in your practice otherwise you have to have your patients doing an oil drain on a regular, painful basis.[/I] [URL unfurl="true"]https://forums.t-nation.com/t/does-high-hematocrit-lead-to-complications-for-men-on-trt/268171/6[/URL] [URL unfurl="true"]https://forums.t-nation.com/t/does-high-hematocrit-lead-to-complications-for-men-on-trt/268171/7[/URL] ...the same Hct in two persons doesn't always equate to the same whole blood viscosity. [IMG]https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/tnation/uploads/default/original/3X/3/b/3b3cf8a8ed7002273b2c3663ffe7e7453fa5fc82.png[/IMG] Personally, I haven't found a free lunch. There are many times consequences for pushing your physiology outside where it's designed/equilibrated to operate. Not a good everyday long term strategy IMO. If you are going to fiddle, you better be smarter than your body or be very cautious. [/QUOTE]
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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Blood Test Discussion
high hematocrit/hemoglobin - what to do
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