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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Testosterone and Men's Health Articles
Evidence of high Testosterone levels achieved naturally
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<blockquote data-quote="IronKnight" data-source="post: 102943" data-attributes="member: 17473"><p>So, we all know Testosterone lab ranges are BS, as they simply include the healthy and the sick, remove the top and bottom 5% outliers and simply do the average (this is from Dr. Crisler's book, btw). Also, Testosterone levels are declining due to pollution, plastics, etc. and therefore labs also decrease their ranges, making ranges even more useless. For example, LabCorp in the US reduced the upper range from 1200 to 900, and in Poland the range is 175-781. Meaning docs will tell you a level of 180 is "normal" and a value of 800 is "too high", both of which are ridiculous.</p><p></p><p>Don't take my word for it, there's even a study about it:</p><p> "<strong>Laboratory reference values for testosterone vary widely, <u>and are established without clinical considerations.</u></strong> [...] <strong>the upper value ranged from 486 to 1,593 ng/dL</strong>" </p><p>Source: <p style="text-align: left"><a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17100942" target="_blank"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17100942</span></span></a></p><p></p><p>So the question is: <strong>What evidence can you find for high Testosterone levels in an ideal world without pollution, without plastic, with a proper diet, sleep and exercise? <u>Because this, and only this is the "upper range"</u></strong></p><p></p><p>Trying to answer this question, I found the following evidence:</p><p>St. Luke Hospital (US, 2010) - 262 - <strong>1593 ng/dL</strong> - <a href="https://www.slhduluth.com/documents/11-10-issue684d.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.slhduluth.com/documents/11-10-issue684d.pdf</a></p><p>"The normal ranges for progesterone is 0.27&#8211;0.9 ng/ml and for testosterone 262&#8211;<strong>1593 ng/dl</strong>." - <a href="https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bri/2010/409640/" target="_blank">https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bri/2010/409640/</a></p><p></p><p>Anecdotally I found the following in this Forum from Dr Saya:</p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Evidence of natural patients > 1400 ng/dL:</span></span></p><p>"<strong>I've seen 1400's (a couple) naturally</strong>. Just last week had a 58yo man with natural 980...wonder what his level was when he was 21yo</p><p> [...]</p><p> On a related interesting topic, <strong>I've seen over a dozen of my clomid guys achieve T 1400 range</strong>. Although these aren't "natural" levels per se, they have achieved physiologic LH levels (upper range) meaning that those same levels were at least POSSIBLE for them naturally (if the "stars were to align" as it were)" - <a href="https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?11061&p=75464&viewfull=1#post75464" target="_blank">https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?11061&p=75464&viewfull=1#post75464</a></p><p></p><p>But this raises the question, how much <strong>Free T</strong> would be the real upper range? I found the following:</p><p> "normal testosterone levels: 8.7 to <strong>54.7 pg/ml</strong>" - <a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10458351" target="_blank">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10458351</a></p><p></p><p>So, in short the upper natural range of Testosterone seems to be really around:</p><p>- <strong>Total Testosterone</strong>: 1400-<span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">1,593 ng/dL</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span>- <strong>Free Testosterone</strong>: 42.5-54.7 pg/ml (42.5 pg/ml = upper range in Spain years ago)</p><p></p><p>Has anybody else tried to answer this question and found solid evidence of high natural T values?</p><p>If we document this evidence, we could use this thread to educate doctors that, for example, 1400 is a natural level.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="IronKnight, post: 102943, member: 17473"] So, we all know Testosterone lab ranges are BS, as they simply include the healthy and the sick, remove the top and bottom 5% outliers and simply do the average (this is from Dr. Crisler's book, btw). Also, Testosterone levels are declining due to pollution, plastics, etc. and therefore labs also decrease their ranges, making ranges even more useless. For example, LabCorp in the US reduced the upper range from 1200 to 900, and in Poland the range is 175-781. Meaning docs will tell you a level of 180 is "normal" and a value of 800 is "too high", both of which are ridiculous. Don't take my word for it, there's even a study about it: "[B]Laboratory reference values for testosterone vary widely, [U]and are established without clinical considerations.[/U][/B] [...] [B]the upper value ranged from 486 to 1,593 ng/dL[/B]" Source: [LEFT][URL="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17100942"][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17100942[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][/LEFT] So the question is: [B]What evidence can you find for high Testosterone levels in an ideal world without pollution, without plastic, with a proper diet, sleep and exercise? [U]Because this, and only this is the "upper range"[/U][/B] Trying to answer this question, I found the following evidence: St. Luke Hospital (US, 2010) - 262 - [B]1593 ng/dL[/B] - [URL]https://www.slhduluth.com/documents/11-10-issue684d.pdf[/URL] "The normal ranges for progesterone is 0.27–0.9 ng/ml and for testosterone 262–[B]1593 ng/dl[/B]." - [URL]https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bri/2010/409640/[/URL] Anecdotally I found the following in this Forum from Dr Saya: [LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]Evidence of natural patients > 1400 ng/dL:[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT] "[B]I've seen 1400's (a couple) naturally[/B]. Just last week had a 58yo man with natural 980...wonder what his level was when he was 21yo [...] On a related interesting topic, [B]I've seen over a dozen of my clomid guys achieve T 1400 range[/B]. Although these aren't "natural" levels per se, they have achieved physiologic LH levels (upper range) meaning that those same levels were at least POSSIBLE for them naturally (if the "stars were to align" as it were)" - [URL]https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?11061&p=75464&viewfull=1#post75464[/URL] But this raises the question, how much [B]Free T[/B] would be the real upper range? I found the following: "normal testosterone levels: 8.7 to [B]54.7 pg/ml[/B]" - [URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10458351[/URL] So, in short the upper natural range of Testosterone seems to be really around: - [B]Total Testosterone[/B]: 1400-[COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]1,593 ng/dL [/FONT][/COLOR]- [B]Free Testosterone[/B]: 42.5-54.7 pg/ml (42.5 pg/ml = upper range in Spain years ago) Has anybody else tried to answer this question and found solid evidence of high natural T values? If we document this evidence, we could use this thread to educate doctors that, for example, 1400 is a natural level. [/QUOTE]
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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Testosterone and Men's Health Articles
Evidence of high Testosterone levels achieved naturally
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