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Danazol not available in Canada?!?!
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<blockquote data-quote="madman" data-source="post: 150837" data-attributes="member: 13851"><p>Most importantly although your SHBG is absurdly high at 108 nmol/L......as long as you hit a high enough TT you will still be able to achieve a healthy FT level.</p><p></p><p>Seeing as in Canada we do not have access to the most accurate testing for Free Testosterone such as the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration we had to rely on the direct immunoassay for years which is known to be inaccurate.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><a href="https://www.fptherapies.com/trut.html" target="_blank">Function Promoting Therapies</a> </p><p></p><p>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p><span style="font-size: 22px"><strong>Current problems with accurate free testosterone determination</strong></span></p><p><strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">Current methods for measuring free testosterone (fT) are technically challenging and not accurate.</span></strong> <span style="color: rgb(26, 188, 156)"><strong>The widely used direct immunoassay and tracer analog techniques for measuring fT have been shown to be inaccurate</strong></span><strong>.</strong> <strong><span style="color: rgb(251, 160, 38)">Equilibrium dialysis, the reference method</span> against which other methods are compared, is labor-intensive and cumbersome, and therefore has had limited clinical adoption.</strong> <strong><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">As an alternative, free testosterone can be computed from the <em>total</em> testosterone, SHBG, and albumin concentrations.</span></strong><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"> <strong>Recently, Endocrine Society’s Expert Panel acknowledged the experimental problems in fT measurements and concluded that</strong></span></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><strong>...the calculation of free testosterone is the most useful estimate of free testosterone in plasma...</strong></span></p><p><strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">However,</span> <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">we have demonstrated that even </span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">the</span> <span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">calculated fT values derived from the prevailing equations, based on linear law-of-mass action models or </span><span style="color: rgb(84, 172, 210)">empiric equations</span>, <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">differ systematically from free testosterone measured by</span></strong><span style="color: rgb(251, 160, 38)"><strong> equilibrium dialysis </strong></span><strong><span style="color: rgb(26, 188, 156)">by as much as </span></strong><span style="color: rgb(26, 188, 156)"><strong>40%.</strong></span></p><p>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p></p><p>In Canada as of 2014-2015 the 2 main labs Dynacare and Lifelabs dropped the <strong><span style="color: rgb(26, 188, 156)">direct immunoassay</span></strong> and replaced it with the <strong><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">linear law-of-mass action Vermeulen calculated method </span></strong><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><a href="http://www.issam.ch/freetesto.htm" target="_blank">Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator</a></span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">.....</span>which was shown at the time to be fairly accurate when compared to the gold standard equilibrium dialysis but that was until the recent discovery of testosterone partitioning.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]7612[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p><a href="https://www.dynacare.ca/DYN/media/DYN/eng/Notices-Services/2014/Client-Notice-Change-in-Methodology-for-Measurement-of-Free-Testosterone-Levels-Sep-5-2014(ENG).pdf" target="_blank"><img src="https://www.gamma-dynacare.com/images/pdf.png" class="bbImage" alt="" data-url="https://www.gamma-dynacare.com/images/pdf.png" style="" />Client Notice - Change in Methodology for Measurement of Free Testosterone Levels [PDF]</a></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><a href="http://www.lifelabs.com/Pages/newsarticle.aspx?articleID=55" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 18px"><strong>News: Calculated Free Testosterone to Replace the Analog ... - LifeLabs</strong></span></a></p><p><a href="http://www.lifelabs.com/Pages/newsarticle.aspx?articleID=55" target="_blank">www.lifelabs.com/Pages/newsarticle.aspx?articleID=55</a></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p><span style="font-size: 22px"><strong>Improved TruT Companion Diagnostics</strong></span></p><p><strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">Based on the fundamental discovery of testosterone partitioning, our team has developed an accurate free testosterone determination method. </span></strong><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><strong>While examining the mechanistic origin of this systematic inaccuracy in free testosterone values using the linear model of </strong></span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><strong>SHBG:testosterone association,</strong></span><strong> <span style="color: rgb(251, 160, 38)">we discovered that the SHBG dimer exhibits conformational allostery in binding testosterone. Our </span><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">TruT™</span> <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">companion diagnostic,</span><span style="color: rgb(251, 160, 38)"> incorporating the correct parameters and non-linear dynamics in </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">T:SHBG association</span><span style="color: rgb(251, 160, 38)"> has resulted in a framework for accurate determination of free testosterone values.</span></strong></p><p></p><p><strong>The<span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)"> TruT algorithm improves the accuracy of fT calculations</span>, reducing the potential for misdiagnosis, and better informing providers when designing treatments.</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">Our</span> <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">patent protected</span>, <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">novel TruT™ companion diagnostic framework provides accurate determination of free testosterone concentrations</span></strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">.</span> <strong>This algorithm is based on experimental data <span style="color: rgb(251, 160, 38)">demonstrating that testosterone’s binding to SHBG is a multi-step process involving an allosteric interaction between the two binding sites on the SHBG dimer.</span></strong> <strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">Estimates of free testosterone derived incorporating the allosteric coupling of SHBG monomers within the dimer provide accurate determination of free testosterone without systematic deviation from values obtained using</span><span style="color: rgb(251, 160, 38)"> equilibrium dialysis. </span></strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>When testing FT seeing as we do not have access to the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration and now we know the linear law-of-mass action models or empiric equations are flawed.....we luckily have access to the newer calculated <a href="https://tru-t.org/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 18px"><strong>TruT <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">Free Testosterone Calculator by </span>FPT</strong></span></a></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p><strong>Why <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">TruT™</span>?</strong></p><p><strong>The <em>only</em> <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">FDA-registered</span> free testosterone calculator</strong></p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Improved biophysical characterizations have have suggested <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">the importance of models that consider allosteric coupling of testosterone with dimeric SHBG. </span>This model, as implemented by<span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)"> TruT™</span> provides the most accurate estimates for free testosterone.</strong></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">Commonly available free testosterone calculators </span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">(issam.ch, nebido.com, pctag.uk)</span> <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">use models of testosterone:SHBG binding </span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">(proposed by Vermeulen et al. and Sodergard et. al)</span> <span style="color: rgb(251, 160, 38)">which were developed before the crystal structure for SHBG:T complexes were available. </span><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">These models assume that the two SHBG monomers behave identically in binding testosterone. </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">Detailed experimental data show that the </span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">"simplified linear model is erroneous."</span> </strong><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><a href="https://tru-t.org/evidence/#existing-calculators-are-inaccurate" target="_blank">References</a>.</span></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: rgb(26, 188, 156)"><strong>The Endocrine Society has issued position statements which highlights the laboratory- and operator-dependent variability inherent in direct free testosterone measurements.</strong> </span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><strong>For this reason they advocate for indirect "calculator" based methods </strong><a href="https://tru-t.org/evidence#endocrine-society-position" target="_blank">References</a>.</span></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">The </span><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">TruT™</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"> calculator provides the ideal solution by using measurements of total testosterone, SHBG, </span></strong><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><strong>and albumin to calculate free testosterone</strong></span> <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)"><strong>while taking into account the complex, non-linear allostery in SHBG's association with testosterone. </strong></span><strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">TruT™ </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">is the only calculator available that uses this more complex formulation. </span></strong><a href="https://tru-t.org/evidence#trut-improvements" target="_blank">References</a></li> </ul><p>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p></p><p></p><p>Now if we take your<strong> TT 44.4 nmol/L (1279.5 ng/dL)</strong>,<span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)"><strong> SHBG 108 nmol/L </strong></span>and <span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><strong>Albumin 4.3 g/dL (mean)</strong></span> than your<span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)"><strong> FT is 37.28 ng/dL </strong></span><strong>(above the top end of the reference range <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">16-31 ng/dL</span>)</strong></p><p>[ATTACH=full]7613[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>Seeing as you are injecting 130 mg/week and your once weekly injection is Tuesday morning.....since you had blood work done only 3 days later (Friday morning) than your TT/FT levels are high and would be even higher 24-48 hrs post Monday morning injection as T levels will peak 24-48 hrs post injection and I would say closer to 24 hrs.</p><p></p><p>You stated.....<strong><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">"<strong>S</strong>ince the increase in my dose I’ve noticed quite a bit more bloat, some tenderness and a lump under my right nipple"</span> </strong><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">and also stated....<strong>.</strong></span><strong>"As to how I’m feeling.<span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)"> I feel really good. Mood is awesome most days (90% of the time). Libido is great, morning wood 3/4 days a week. No complaints really </span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">other than the blot and nipple stuff going on. I gained about 10 pounds that feels like mostly water to me since starting trt in December"</span></strong></p><p></p><p>So I would say that even with your absurdly high SHBG of 108 nmol/L......injecting 130 mg/week is putting your TT/FT levels in a healthy range and although your e2 may be elevated due to the symptoms you are experiencing we will not truly know where your e2 sits until you receive your results from the estradiol sensitive (LC/MS-MS) results come back.</p><p></p><p>I would say overall your TT/FT levels are robust.....but next set of labs make sure you test at trough as this is the proper way to see where your TT/FT/e2 levels truly sit at your lowest point.</p><p></p><p>Even though you tested 3 days post injection your <strong>TT 1279.5 ng/dL</strong> and <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)"><strong>FT 37.28 ng/dL</strong></span> are robust and by day 7 (trough) levels should still be in a healthy range as you stated.....<strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">"I feel really good. Mood is awesome most days (90% of the time). Libido is great, morning wood 3/4 days a week. No complaints really"</span></strong><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">..... which is KEY!</span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="madman, post: 150837, member: 13851"] Most importantly although your SHBG is absurdly high at 108 nmol/L......as long as you hit a high enough TT you will still be able to achieve a healthy FT level. Seeing as in Canada we do not have access to the most accurate testing for Free Testosterone such as the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration we had to rely on the direct immunoassay for years which is known to be inaccurate. [URL="https://www.fptherapies.com/trut.html"]Function Promoting Therapies[/URL] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [SIZE=22px][B]Current problems with accurate free testosterone determination[/B][/SIZE] [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]Current methods for measuring free testosterone (fT) are technically challenging and not accurate.[/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=rgb(26, 188, 156)][B]The widely used direct immunoassay and tracer analog techniques for measuring fT have been shown to be inaccurate[/B][/COLOR][B].[/B] [B][COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)]Equilibrium dialysis, the reference method[/COLOR] against which other methods are compared, is labor-intensive and cumbersome, and therefore has had limited clinical adoption.[/B] [B][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]As an alternative, free testosterone can be computed from the [I]total[/I] testosterone, SHBG, and albumin concentrations.[/COLOR][/B][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)] [B]Recently, Endocrine Society’s Expert Panel acknowledged the experimental problems in fT measurements and concluded that[/B][/COLOR] [INDENT][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][B]...the calculation of free testosterone is the most useful estimate of free testosterone in plasma...[/B][/COLOR][/INDENT] [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]However,[/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]we have demonstrated that even [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]the[/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]calculated fT values derived from the prevailing equations, based on linear law-of-mass action models or [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(84, 172, 210)]empiric equations[/COLOR], [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]differ systematically from free testosterone measured by[/COLOR][/B][COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)][B] equilibrium dialysis [/B][/COLOR][B][COLOR=rgb(26, 188, 156)]by as much as [/COLOR][/B][COLOR=rgb(26, 188, 156)][B]40%.[/B][/COLOR] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Canada as of 2014-2015 the 2 main labs Dynacare and Lifelabs dropped the [B][COLOR=rgb(26, 188, 156)]direct immunoassay[/COLOR][/B] and replaced it with the [B][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]linear law-of-mass action Vermeulen calculated method [/COLOR][/B][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][URL='http://www.issam.ch/freetesto.htm']Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator[/URL][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)].....[/COLOR]which was shown at the time to be fairly accurate when compared to the gold standard equilibrium dialysis but that was until the recent discovery of testosterone partitioning. [ATTACH=full]7612[/ATTACH] [URL='https://www.dynacare.ca/DYN/media/DYN/eng/Notices-Services/2014/Client-Notice-Change-in-Methodology-for-Measurement-of-Free-Testosterone-Levels-Sep-5-2014(ENG).pdf'][IMG]https://www.gamma-dynacare.com/images/pdf.png[/IMG]Client Notice - Change in Methodology for Measurement of Free Testosterone Levels [PDF][/URL] [URL='http://www.lifelabs.com/Pages/newsarticle.aspx?articleID=55'][SIZE=18px][B]News: Calculated Free Testosterone to Replace the Analog ... - LifeLabs[/B][/SIZE] www.lifelabs.com/Pages/newsarticle.aspx?articleID=55[/URL] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [SIZE=22px][B]Improved TruT Companion Diagnostics[/B][/SIZE] [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]Based on the fundamental discovery of testosterone partitioning, our team has developed an accurate free testosterone determination method. [/COLOR][/B][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][B]While examining the mechanistic origin of this systematic inaccuracy in free testosterone values using the linear model of [/B][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][B]SHBG:testosterone association,[/B][/COLOR][B] [COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)]we discovered that the SHBG dimer exhibits conformational allostery in binding testosterone. Our [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]TruT™[/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]companion diagnostic,[/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)] incorporating the correct parameters and non-linear dynamics in [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]T:SHBG association[/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)] has resulted in a framework for accurate determination of free testosterone values.[/COLOR][/B] [B]The[COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)] TruT algorithm improves the accuracy of fT calculations[/COLOR], reducing the potential for misdiagnosis, and better informing providers when designing treatments.[/B] [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]Our[/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]patent protected[/COLOR], [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]novel TruT™ companion diagnostic framework provides accurate determination of free testosterone concentrations[/COLOR][/B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)].[/COLOR] [B]This algorithm is based on experimental data [COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)]demonstrating that testosterone’s binding to SHBG is a multi-step process involving an allosteric interaction between the two binding sites on the SHBG dimer.[/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]Estimates of free testosterone derived incorporating the allosteric coupling of SHBG monomers within the dimer provide accurate determination of free testosterone without systematic deviation from values obtained using[/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)] equilibrium dialysis. [/COLOR][/B] When testing FT seeing as we do not have access to the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration and now we know the linear law-of-mass action models or empiric equations are flawed.....we luckily have access to the newer calculated [URL='https://tru-t.org/'][SIZE=18px][B]TruT [COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Free Testosterone Calculator by [/COLOR]FPT[/B][/SIZE][/URL] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [B]Why [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]TruT™[/COLOR]? The [I]only[/I] [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]FDA-registered[/COLOR] free testosterone calculator[/B] [LIST] [*][B]Improved biophysical characterizations have have suggested [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]the importance of models that consider allosteric coupling of testosterone with dimeric SHBG. [/COLOR]This model, as implemented by[COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)] TruT™[/COLOR] provides the most accurate estimates for free testosterone.[/B] [*] [*][B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]Commonly available free testosterone calculators [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)](issam.ch, nebido.com, pctag.uk)[/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]use models of testosterone:SHBG binding [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)](proposed by Vermeulen et al. and Sodergard et. al)[/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)]which were developed before the crystal structure for SHBG:T complexes were available. [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]These models assume that the two SHBG monomers behave identically in binding testosterone. [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Detailed experimental data show that the [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]"simplified linear model is erroneous."[/COLOR] [/B][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][URL='https://tru-t.org/evidence/#existing-calculators-are-inaccurate']References[/URL].[/COLOR] [*] [*][COLOR=rgb(26, 188, 156)][B]The Endocrine Society has issued position statements which highlights the laboratory- and operator-dependent variability inherent in direct free testosterone measurements.[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][B]For this reason they advocate for indirect "calculator" based methods [/B][URL='https://tru-t.org/evidence#endocrine-society-position']References[/URL].[/COLOR] [*] [*][B][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]The [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]TruT™[/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)] calculator provides the ideal solution by using measurements of total testosterone, SHBG, [/COLOR][/B][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][B]and albumin to calculate free testosterone[/B][/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)][B]while taking into account the complex, non-linear allostery in SHBG's association with testosterone. [/B][/COLOR][B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]TruT™ [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]is the only calculator available that uses this more complex formulation. [/COLOR][/B][URL='https://tru-t.org/evidence#trut-improvements']References[/URL] [/LIST] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now if we take your[B] TT 44.4 nmol/L (1279.5 ng/dL)[/B],[COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)][B] SHBG 108 nmol/L [/B][/COLOR]and [COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][B]Albumin 4.3 g/dL (mean)[/B][/COLOR] than your[COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)][B] FT is 37.28 ng/dL [/B][/COLOR][B](above the top end of the reference range [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]16-31 ng/dL[/COLOR])[/B] [ATTACH=full]7613[/ATTACH] Seeing as you are injecting 130 mg/week and your once weekly injection is Tuesday morning.....since you had blood work done only 3 days later (Friday morning) than your TT/FT levels are high and would be even higher 24-48 hrs post Monday morning injection as T levels will peak 24-48 hrs post injection and I would say closer to 24 hrs. You stated.....[B][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]"[B]S[/B]ince the increase in my dose I’ve noticed quite a bit more bloat, some tenderness and a lump under my right nipple"[/COLOR] [/B][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]and also stated....[B].[/B][/COLOR][B]"As to how I’m feeling.[COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)] I feel really good. Mood is awesome most days (90% of the time). Libido is great, morning wood 3/4 days a week. No complaints really [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]other than the blot and nipple stuff going on. I gained about 10 pounds that feels like mostly water to me since starting trt in December"[/COLOR][/B] So I would say that even with your absurdly high SHBG of 108 nmol/L......injecting 130 mg/week is putting your TT/FT levels in a healthy range and although your e2 may be elevated due to the symptoms you are experiencing we will not truly know where your e2 sits until you receive your results from the estradiol sensitive (LC/MS-MS) results come back. I would say overall your TT/FT levels are robust.....but next set of labs make sure you test at trough as this is the proper way to see where your TT/FT/e2 levels truly sit at your lowest point. Even though you tested 3 days post injection your [B]TT 1279.5 ng/dL[/B] and [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)][B]FT 37.28 ng/dL[/B][/COLOR] are robust and by day 7 (trough) levels should still be in a healthy range as you stated.....[B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]"I feel really good. Mood is awesome most days (90% of the time). Libido is great, morning wood 3/4 days a week. No complaints really"[/COLOR][/B][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]..... which is KEY![/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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