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Thyroid, Pregnenolone, Progesterone, DHEA, etc
Thyroid, DHEA, Pregnenolone, Progesterone, etc
Could the ratio of progesterone to estradiol affect water retention in men on TRT?
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<blockquote data-quote="xqfq" data-source="post: 156813" data-attributes="member: 38167"><p>Hey everyone, I wanted to give a little update here.</p><p></p><p>As far as I can tell, <strong>increasing my progesterone seems to have eliminated my water retention</strong>[1].</p><p></p><p>I've been logging my water retention status in the AM and PM daily for the past several months. Here's my findings so far:</p><p></p><p>When I experimented with ~5mg - 10mg of progesterone cream applied to my deltoid, my water retention seemed to disappear. But I didn't use the cream for that long (just a couple days) so I can't say for sure it worked to remove the water retention. I found the cream very sedating; I almost felt too lazy to work -- I felt a bit like "The Dude" from the Big Lebowski!</p><p></p><p>Next, I tried oral pregnenolone, 60mg/day 3x day (180mg/day), spaced out: wake, afternoon, before bed. I used <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Pure-Encapsulations-Pregnenolone-Hypoallergenic-Supplement/dp/B0064QDMIQ/ref=sr_1_20_sspa?keywords=pregnenolone&qid=1566330171&s=gateway&sr=8-20-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFRSllJSElCUzVKQkUmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA4MTYwNzkzNjVORlgwSjNYRFlHJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA3Njc0MTgyU0ZVNjZZNlRVNlBNJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfbXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==" target="_blank">this brand </a>(I'm not sure that it's 'micronized'). After a couple days on this I noticed my water retention disappear.</p><p></p><p>I "tested" this by attending outdoor concerts, consuming beer and alcohol, pizza, fries, burgers, etc. Nothing I ate or did could increase my water retention beyond what I remember having pre-TRT; if I felt a tad 'puffy' it was completely gone by morning[2].</p><p></p><p>I got my progesterone level tested yesterday: the pregnenolone raised it from 0.2 ng/mL to 1.3 ng/mL. I tested ~3 hours after taking my morning pregnenolone, so this may be my 'peak'.</p><p></p><p>Problems I see with using pregnenolone to raise progesterone as I'm doing:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I have no idea what the half life of oral pregnenolone is. It seems to have a "sulfate" form, like how "DHEA" has "DHEA-S." But from what I read it's probably only around in the body for ~3-5 hours. Progesterone has a very short half life in the body from what I can tell. I'm fine with dosing 3x a day; I'd just like to know this stuff so I know how much my e.g. 'peak' differs from my 'trough' progesterone.<br /> <br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Pregnenolone may also raise other upstream hormones, e.g. DHEA, which I may not need. Raising e.g. DHEA could raise E2, or raise ER-binding hormones like <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androstenediol" target="_blank">androstenediol</a>; meaning I could require <em>more progesterone </em>than otherwise.<br /> <br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">It's possible that pregenolone itself may require LH activation (see the<a href="https://www.excelmale.com/forum/threads/do-we-really-need-lh-or-hcg-to-convert-pregnenolone-to-downstream-hormones.18654/" target="_blank"> post by Nelson here</a>) to convert to progesterone; or maybe for 'full conversion' LH activation is needed. I'd really like a solution that doesn't depend on my always having HCG on hand to function.</li> </ul><p>I will be lowering my pregnenolone to 30mg 3x a day (90mg/day) and seeing how I feel over the next two weeks and testing again. I may experiment again with direct progesterone usage if pregnenolone proves too unreliable. As Cataceous may have figured out above, injectable progesterone seems to be the best form for men who want to achieve lower, steady levels.</p><p></p><p>I've been doing a ton of research on progesterone; I'll write more here soon and write up an 'article' of my findings when I've ironed this out for myself. And I'll follow up with my status as I learn more!</p><p></p><p>----</p><p><em>1. Some more personal background: When I started TRT in December of 2018 I didn't notice much of any water retention. I was dieting / losing weight at the time, and I believe it's just harder to have water retention in that circumstance. It wasn't until I started gaining weight (eating in a surplus) in mid-May that I started experiencing water retention. As noted, I could somewhat control my water retention issues by micro-managing my potassium / sodium intake and avoiding alcohol, but boy is that annoying! What use is feeling better with TRT if I can't leave the house and socialize?</em></p><p></p><p><em>I do not want to take an aromatase inhibitor if I can avoid it. I have a family history of cardiovascular disease and I want to do everything possible to minimize my risk. Many people I spoke to told me this was a problem with my estrogen level and that I should take an AI. As a note, my free testosterone levels were barely above the mid-point and I was already injecting EOD (and my SHBG is ~45 nmol/L), so reducing my dose likely wasn't going to work for me, either.</em></p><p></p><p><em>I initially tried stopping HCG to reduce my water retention; I had read stories of HCG increasing water retention either by E2 or some other mechanism. Instead, I noticed that when I stopped HCG it may have gotten even..worse?! Bizarre, right? As an additional note, I notice a profound mental effect with HCG when it works well - I feel like a fog lifts, I feel relaxed and my libido increases; it has a *profound* effect on me.</em></p><p></p><p><em>Without the HCG, I started to notice 'joint aches', I had serious trouble sleeping and I started feeling strong anxiety and irritability. Results: 664 ng/dL, FT ('direct') 12.6 pg/ml (8.7-25.1), E2 40.4 pg/mL LC/MS/MS, SHBG 45.8 nmol/L.</em></p><p></p><p><em>It was unbearable! So I added HCG back in. Those symptoms were all gone within a few hours of re-adding HCG (300IU EOD). My testosterone was low without the HCG, so maybe my symptoms were due to that. But I'm inclined to believe that the minor increase in progesterone from my HCG dose may have played a role in alleviating my issues. E.g. the HCG could have taken my progesterone from ~0 to 0.2 ng/mL or something.</em></p><p></p><p><em>While HCG fixed these issues, I still had some water retention. I also don't like the idea of requiring HCG to function; I can't always travel with it, the 'kick' it gives me seems to vary depending on how old the bottle is or on what phase the moon is in..I wanted a reliable solution to my problems, and that's why I started investigating progesterone.</em></p><p></p><p><em>2. Previously, if I e.g. went to a baseball game and had salty food and beer, my ankles would have a small amount of pitting edema (that only I would ever notice) by the end of the day. This never happened before TRT, and I'm an otherwise extremely healthy 35 year old. Honestly, most people wouldn't be bothered by it - it's minor, but I am not happy with increased water retention as I believe it plays a role in hypertension. I want to feel in control of my body.</em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="xqfq, post: 156813, member: 38167"] Hey everyone, I wanted to give a little update here. As far as I can tell, [B]increasing my progesterone seems to have eliminated my water retention[/B][1]. I've been logging my water retention status in the AM and PM daily for the past several months. Here's my findings so far: When I experimented with ~5mg - 10mg of progesterone cream applied to my deltoid, my water retention seemed to disappear. But I didn't use the cream for that long (just a couple days) so I can't say for sure it worked to remove the water retention. I found the cream very sedating; I almost felt too lazy to work -- I felt a bit like "The Dude" from the Big Lebowski! Next, I tried oral pregnenolone, 60mg/day 3x day (180mg/day), spaced out: wake, afternoon, before bed. I used [URL='https://www.amazon.com/Pure-Encapsulations-Pregnenolone-Hypoallergenic-Supplement/dp/B0064QDMIQ/ref=sr_1_20_sspa?keywords=pregnenolone&qid=1566330171&s=gateway&sr=8-20-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFRSllJSElCUzVKQkUmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA4MTYwNzkzNjVORlgwSjNYRFlHJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA3Njc0MTgyU0ZVNjZZNlRVNlBNJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfbXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==']this brand [/URL](I'm not sure that it's 'micronized'). After a couple days on this I noticed my water retention disappear. I "tested" this by attending outdoor concerts, consuming beer and alcohol, pizza, fries, burgers, etc. Nothing I ate or did could increase my water retention beyond what I remember having pre-TRT; if I felt a tad 'puffy' it was completely gone by morning[2]. I got my progesterone level tested yesterday: the pregnenolone raised it from 0.2 ng/mL to 1.3 ng/mL. I tested ~3 hours after taking my morning pregnenolone, so this may be my 'peak'. Problems I see with using pregnenolone to raise progesterone as I'm doing: [LIST] [*]I have no idea what the half life of oral pregnenolone is. It seems to have a "sulfate" form, like how "DHEA" has "DHEA-S." But from what I read it's probably only around in the body for ~3-5 hours. Progesterone has a very short half life in the body from what I can tell. I'm fine with dosing 3x a day; I'd just like to know this stuff so I know how much my e.g. 'peak' differs from my 'trough' progesterone. [*]Pregnenolone may also raise other upstream hormones, e.g. DHEA, which I may not need. Raising e.g. DHEA could raise E2, or raise ER-binding hormones like [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androstenediol']androstenediol[/URL]; meaning I could require [I]more progesterone [/I]than otherwise. [*]It's possible that pregenolone itself may require LH activation (see the[URL='https://www.excelmale.com/forum/threads/do-we-really-need-lh-or-hcg-to-convert-pregnenolone-to-downstream-hormones.18654/'] post by Nelson here[/URL]) to convert to progesterone; or maybe for 'full conversion' LH activation is needed. I'd really like a solution that doesn't depend on my always having HCG on hand to function. [/LIST] I will be lowering my pregnenolone to 30mg 3x a day (90mg/day) and seeing how I feel over the next two weeks and testing again. I may experiment again with direct progesterone usage if pregnenolone proves too unreliable. As Cataceous may have figured out above, injectable progesterone seems to be the best form for men who want to achieve lower, steady levels. I've been doing a ton of research on progesterone; I'll write more here soon and write up an 'article' of my findings when I've ironed this out for myself. And I'll follow up with my status as I learn more! ---- [I]1. Some more personal background: When I started TRT in December of 2018 I didn't notice much of any water retention. I was dieting / losing weight at the time, and I believe it's just harder to have water retention in that circumstance. It wasn't until I started gaining weight (eating in a surplus) in mid-May that I started experiencing water retention. As noted, I could somewhat control my water retention issues by micro-managing my potassium / sodium intake and avoiding alcohol, but boy is that annoying! What use is feeling better with TRT if I can't leave the house and socialize?[/I] [I]I do not want to take an aromatase inhibitor if I can avoid it. I have a family history of cardiovascular disease and I want to do everything possible to minimize my risk. Many people I spoke to told me this was a problem with my estrogen level and that I should take an AI. As a note, my free testosterone levels were barely above the mid-point and I was already injecting EOD (and my SHBG is ~45 nmol/L), so reducing my dose likely wasn't going to work for me, either.[/I] [I]I initially tried stopping HCG to reduce my water retention; I had read stories of HCG increasing water retention either by E2 or some other mechanism. Instead, I noticed that when I stopped HCG it may have gotten even..worse?! Bizarre, right? As an additional note, I notice a profound mental effect with HCG when it works well - I feel like a fog lifts, I feel relaxed and my libido increases; it has a *profound* effect on me.[/I] [I]Without the HCG, I started to notice 'joint aches', I had serious trouble sleeping and I started feeling strong anxiety and irritability. Results: 664 ng/dL, FT ('direct') 12.6 pg/ml (8.7-25.1), E2 40.4 pg/mL LC/MS/MS, SHBG 45.8 nmol/L.[/I] [I]It was unbearable! So I added HCG back in. Those symptoms were all gone within a few hours of re-adding HCG (300IU EOD). My testosterone was low without the HCG, so maybe my symptoms were due to that. But I'm inclined to believe that the minor increase in progesterone from my HCG dose may have played a role in alleviating my issues. E.g. the HCG could have taken my progesterone from ~0 to 0.2 ng/mL or something.[/I] [I]While HCG fixed these issues, I still had some water retention. I also don't like the idea of requiring HCG to function; I can't always travel with it, the 'kick' it gives me seems to vary depending on how old the bottle is or on what phase the moon is in..I wanted a reliable solution to my problems, and that's why I started investigating progesterone.[/I] [I]2. Previously, if I e.g. went to a baseball game and had salty food and beer, my ankles would have a small amount of pitting edema (that only I would ever notice) by the end of the day. This never happened before TRT, and I'm an otherwise extremely healthy 35 year old. Honestly, most people wouldn't be bothered by it - it's minor, but I am not happy with increased water retention as I believe it plays a role in hypertension. I want to feel in control of my body.[/I] [/QUOTE]
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Thyroid, Pregnenolone, Progesterone, DHEA, etc
Thyroid, DHEA, Pregnenolone, Progesterone, etc
Could the ratio of progesterone to estradiol affect water retention in men on TRT?
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