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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Blood Test Discussion
Blood work and Natesto
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<blockquote data-quote="madman" data-source="post: 225085" data-attributes="member: 13851"><p><strong><em>-Yes, the 2nd test was at 8am at the theoretical peak at the fasted state.</em></strong> <strong><em>It seems strange that compared to the afternoon, it is over 50% higher.</em></strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>It is a known fact that testosterone levels of healthy young men peak in the early am.</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]22323[/ATTACH]</p><p><strong>FIG. 1. Hourly serum testosterone levels (mean ± SEM) in normal young (n = 17) and old (n = 12) men. Blood samples were obtained using an indwelling peripheral venous cannula, which allowed free movement and normal sleep. *, P < 0.05; **, P < 0.01 (significance levels of the differences between young and old men at each time point). The absence of an asterisk denotes that there was no significant difference at that time point.</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]22324[/ATTACH]</p><p><strong>Fig. 1 Cosinor-derived circadian rhythmometry (CHRONOLAB) for serum (a), total testosterone (b), bioavailable testosterone (c), free testosterone (d) SHBG in young (dotted lines) and elderly (solid lines) men. The arrows (dotted = young: solid = elderly) indicate the time of acrophase. PHASE represents the time in degrees 360° = 24 h).</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That is why blood work needs to be done in the early am as we want to test at the peak.</p><p></p><p>Your first doctor was out to lunch!</p><p></p><p>Even then you would be better off testing twice over a few weeks using the same lab/same assays (most accurate).</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]22319[/ATTACH]</p><p>[ATTACH=full]22320[/ATTACH]</p><p>[ATTACH=full]22321[/ATTACH]</p><p>[ATTACH=full]22322[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong><em>-<strong><em>what would be the average free test for someone in my age group? I probably have close to half of total test.</em></strong></em></strong></p><p></p><p>Have no clue where your T levels sat in your prime late teens/the early 20s.</p><p></p><p>Even then would not be too surprised if you were only hitting a TT 600 ng/dL in your prime!</p><p></p><p>Look over the thread posted below.</p><p></p><p><em><strong>post #31/33</strong></em></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.excelmale.com/forum/threads/microdosing-enanthate.24640/page-2#post-214918[/URL]</p><p></p><p><strong>A Validated Age-Related Normative Model for Male Total Testosterone Shows Increasing Variance but No Decline after Age 40 Years (2014)</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Discussion</strong></p><p></p><p><em>Using data-driven modeling and analysis, we have derived a normative model of total testosterone throughout the lifespan.<strong> We have shown that in the average healthy male testosterone is low in pre-puberty, rises from age 11, and <u>peaks at age 19 at 15.4 (7.2– 31.1) nmol/L [mean (2.5–97.5 percentile)]</u>. Thereafter TT falls slightly to age 40 years to 13.0 (6.6–25.3) nmol/L.</strong> We find no evidence to support a progressive decline in testosterone in middle-aged and older men, sometimes termed the ‘andropause’, as TT does not fall significantly in the average man after the age of 40 years. Our analyses show that the 95% prediction limit increases from 18.7 nmol/L at age 40 years to 24.5 nmol/L at age 88 years. This increase in variation with increasing age demonstrates that reference ranges for TT that do not take chronological age into account are inappropriate for the assessment of an individual’s testosterone levels.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>*Our model is derived from data from multiple sources of the measurement of TT in over 10,000 healthy males aged between 3 and 101 years. This is both a strength and weakness of the study. The strength is that modeling power is increased by the provision of large numbers of data points for a wide range of ages: it has been previously shown that models that include both prepubertal, pubertal, and adult ages can be used to derive important insights for a restricted age range [47]. <strong>The weakness is the approximate heterogeneity of the values obtained from diverse sources, especially as assay conversion factors were used that have known high correlation but are nevertheless inexact. This includes studies that involve convenience samples (e.g. primary care and outpatient attendees) as well as those that involve population-derived cohorts. Further limitations of our approach are that insufficient data were found to model accurately neonatal ages and that we had to exclude potentially useful studies that used in-house assays which lack standardization and harmonization, and for which no conversion formula has been published [48].</strong> <strong>Ten of the thirteen studies used as data sources (Table 1) excluded subjects taking medication that could affect the endocrine system, but three studies [5,6,49] (combined n = 2,371 of 10,097) do not have equivalently explicit inclusion criteria. <u>We can therefore not rule out the possibility that a small number of subjects were on medication that increased their TT levels</u>.</strong></em></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Figure 4. <u>The validated model</u>. Our dataset (n = 10,098) of observed total testosterone for ages 3–88 years, split into normative ranges determined by mean predicted values (blue line) and one (red), two (blue), three (green), and four (purple) standard deviations higher and lower than the predicted values. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0109346.g004</strong></p><p><strong>[ATTACH=full]22329[/ATTACH]</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Figure 5. <u>The validated model in centiles</u>. Normative ranges for the model of total testosterone from ages 3–88 years. In the average case (red line) total testosterone remains constant for age .40. However, the variance in normative ranges increases for these ages, with 1st to 99th centile ranges of 5.6–27.6 nmol/L at age 35 years and 4.1–33.1 nmol/L at age 88 years. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0109346.g005</strong></p><p><strong>[ATTACH=full]22330[/ATTACH]</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong><strong><em>-Would you continue TRT if you were in my shoes? Would injections have shut me down after 2 weeks of taking them?</em></strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>From this 2nd doctor and different (in-house) lab, i received the following results, where my blood was taken at 8am:</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Prolactin 14.2 (ref 2.5-17.4)</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Total testosterone: <u>433 ng/dL</u> (ref 249-836)</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Free test: 10.52 ng/dL (ref 1.8 - 21)</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>LH 2.9 miu/mL (ref 1.2-10.6)</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>FSH 2.3 miu/mL (ref 1.4-18.2)</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>SHBG <u>26.52 nmol/L</u> (ref 10-57)</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Albumin <u>4 g/dL</u> (ref 3.4-5.0)</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As I stated previously.</p><p></p><p>The sad fact of the matter is your TT 433 ng/dL at the peak is far from anything to brag about and more importantly, your FT would be sub-par.</p><p></p><p>Although TT is important to know FT is what truly matters as it is the active unbound fraction of testosterone responsible for the positive effects.</p><p></p><p>Regarding injections, the full shutdown of the hpta does not happen immediately.</p><p></p><p>It can take anywhere from 2-6 weeks depending on the dose used.</p><p></p><p>High doses of T (beyond therapeutic) will result in a much quicker shutdown of the hpta.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="madman, post: 225085, member: 13851"] [B][I]-Yes, the 2nd test was at 8am at the theoretical peak at the fasted state.[/I][/B] [B][I]It seems strange that compared to the afternoon, it is over 50% higher.[/I][/B] It is a known fact that testosterone levels of healthy young men peak in the early am. [ATTACH type="full" alt="Screenshot (13532).png"]22323[/ATTACH] [B]FIG. 1. Hourly serum testosterone levels (mean ± SEM) in normal young (n = 17) and old (n = 12) men. Blood samples were obtained using an indwelling peripheral venous cannula, which allowed free movement and normal sleep. *, P < 0.05; **, P < 0.01 (significance levels of the differences between young and old men at each time point). The absence of an asterisk denotes that there was no significant difference at that time point.[/B] [ATTACH type="full" alt="Screenshot (13572).png"]22324[/ATTACH] [B]Fig. 1 Cosinor-derived circadian rhythmometry (CHRONOLAB) for serum (a), total testosterone (b), bioavailable testosterone (c), free testosterone (d) SHBG in young (dotted lines) and elderly (solid lines) men. The arrows (dotted = young: solid = elderly) indicate the time of acrophase. PHASE represents the time in degrees 360° = 24 h).[/B] That is why blood work needs to be done in the early am as we want to test at the peak. Your first doctor was out to lunch! Even then you would be better off testing twice over a few weeks using the same lab/same assays (most accurate). [ATTACH type="full" alt="Screenshot (13309).png"]22319[/ATTACH] [ATTACH type="full" alt="Screenshot (13310).png"]22320[/ATTACH] [ATTACH type="full" alt="Screenshot (13312).png"]22321[/ATTACH] [ATTACH type="full" alt="Screenshot (13313).png"]22322[/ATTACH] [B][I]-[B][I]what would be the average free test for someone in my age group? I probably have close to half of total test.[/I][/B][/I][/B] Have no clue where your T levels sat in your prime late teens/the early 20s. Even then would not be too surprised if you were only hitting a TT 600 ng/dL in your prime! Look over the thread posted below. [I][B]post #31/33[/B][/I] [URL unfurl="true"]https://www.excelmale.com/forum/threads/microdosing-enanthate.24640/page-2#post-214918[/URL] [B]A Validated Age-Related Normative Model for Male Total Testosterone Shows Increasing Variance but No Decline after Age 40 Years (2014) Discussion[/B] [I]Using data-driven modeling and analysis, we have derived a normative model of total testosterone throughout the lifespan.[B] We have shown that in the average healthy male testosterone is low in pre-puberty, rises from age 11, and [U]peaks at age 19 at 15.4 (7.2– 31.1) nmol/L [mean (2.5–97.5 percentile)][/U]. Thereafter TT falls slightly to age 40 years to 13.0 (6.6–25.3) nmol/L.[/B] We find no evidence to support a progressive decline in testosterone in middle-aged and older men, sometimes termed the ‘andropause’, as TT does not fall significantly in the average man after the age of 40 years. Our analyses show that the 95% prediction limit increases from 18.7 nmol/L at age 40 years to 24.5 nmol/L at age 88 years. This increase in variation with increasing age demonstrates that reference ranges for TT that do not take chronological age into account are inappropriate for the assessment of an individual’s testosterone levels. *Our model is derived from data from multiple sources of the measurement of TT in over 10,000 healthy males aged between 3 and 101 years. This is both a strength and weakness of the study. The strength is that modeling power is increased by the provision of large numbers of data points for a wide range of ages: it has been previously shown that models that include both prepubertal, pubertal, and adult ages can be used to derive important insights for a restricted age range [47]. [B]The weakness is the approximate heterogeneity of the values obtained from diverse sources, especially as assay conversion factors were used that have known high correlation but are nevertheless inexact. This includes studies that involve convenience samples (e.g. primary care and outpatient attendees) as well as those that involve population-derived cohorts. Further limitations of our approach are that insufficient data were found to model accurately neonatal ages and that we had to exclude potentially useful studies that used in-house assays which lack standardization and harmonization, and for which no conversion formula has been published [48].[/B] [B]Ten of the thirteen studies used as data sources (Table 1) excluded subjects taking medication that could affect the endocrine system, but three studies [5,6,49] (combined n = 2,371 of 10,097) do not have equivalently explicit inclusion criteria. [U]We can therefore not rule out the possibility that a small number of subjects were on medication that increased their TT levels[/U].[/B][/I] [B]Figure 4. [U]The validated model[/U]. Our dataset (n = 10,098) of observed total testosterone for ages 3–88 years, split into normative ranges determined by mean predicted values (blue line) and one (red), two (blue), three (green), and four (purple) standard deviations higher and lower than the predicted values. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0109346.g004 [ATTACH type="full" alt="Screenshot (13575).png"]22329[/ATTACH] Figure 5. [U]The validated model in centiles[/U]. Normative ranges for the model of total testosterone from ages 3–88 years. In the average case (red line) total testosterone remains constant for age .40. However, the variance in normative ranges increases for these ages, with 1st to 99th centile ranges of 5.6–27.6 nmol/L at age 35 years and 4.1–33.1 nmol/L at age 88 years. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0109346.g005 [ATTACH type="full" alt="Screenshot (13576).png"]22330[/ATTACH] [B][I]-Would you continue TRT if you were in my shoes? Would injections have shut me down after 2 weeks of taking them?[/I][/B] From this 2nd doctor and different (in-house) lab, i received the following results, where my blood was taken at 8am: Prolactin 14.2 (ref 2.5-17.4) Total testosterone: [U]433 ng/dL[/U] (ref 249-836) Free test: 10.52 ng/dL (ref 1.8 - 21) LH 2.9 miu/mL (ref 1.2-10.6) FSH 2.3 miu/mL (ref 1.4-18.2) SHBG [U]26.52 nmol/L[/U] (ref 10-57) Albumin [U]4 g/dL[/U] (ref 3.4-5.0)[/B] As I stated previously. The sad fact of the matter is your TT 433 ng/dL at the peak is far from anything to brag about and more importantly, your FT would be sub-par. Although TT is important to know FT is what truly matters as it is the active unbound fraction of testosterone responsible for the positive effects. Regarding injections, the full shutdown of the hpta does not happen immediately. It can take anywhere from 2-6 weeks depending on the dose used. High doses of T (beyond therapeutic) will result in a much quicker shutdown of the hpta. [/QUOTE]
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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Blood Test Discussion
Blood work and Natesto
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