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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Testosterone Basics & Questions
“High-Normal T”
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<blockquote data-quote="BigTex" data-source="post: 249633" data-attributes="member: 43589"><p>I wanted to post this but never got around to it yesterday: </p><p></p><p>This comes from an old Farmington Study Mean 723.8 SD 221.1</p><p></p><p>99th percentile - 1322</p><p>[ATTACH=full]30240[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p><a href="https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/96/8/2430/2834349" target="_blank">Reference Ranges for Testosterone in Men Generated Using Liquid Chromatography Tandem Mass Spectrometry in a Community-Based Sample of Healthy Nonobese Young Men in the Framingham Heart Study and Applied to Three Geographically Distinct Cohorts</a></p><p></p><p><em>The composite outcome indicates the following: in FHS, one or more of slow walking speed (walking speed in the lowest 20th percentile), self-reported mobility limitation, or diabetes; in EMAS, one or more of low frequency of morning erections, erectile dysfunction, low frequency of sexual thoughts, difficulty in climbing several stairs, limited in walking more than 1 km, slow walking speed (walking speed in the lowest 20th percentile), or diabetes; in MrOS, one or more of frailty, slow walking speed (walking speed in the lowest 20th percentile), or diabetes.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>In general, men with low total or free testosterone were more likely to have low walking speed, frailty, or physical symptoms than those with normal levels (<a href="https://www.excelmale.com/forum/javascript%3A;" target="_blank">Fig. 3</a>). Thus, EMAS participants with low total or free testosterone were more likely to report difficulty climbing stairs or have low walking speed (in the lowest 20th percentile). In MrOS, men with low total or free testosterone were more likely to have slow walking speed than those with normal testosterone; men with low free testosterone were also more likely to have frailty. As reported previously (<a href="https://www.excelmale.com/forum/javascript%3A;" target="_blank">20</a>), the FHS participants with low free testosterone were at higher risk of self-reported mobility limitation.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>In all three cohorts, the men with low total and free testosterone levels were nearly twice as likely to have DM as those with normal levels (<a href="https://www.excelmale.com/forum/javascript%3A;" target="_blank">Fig. 3</a>). Similarly, in all three cohorts, men with low total and free testosterone were more likely to have at least one of the following: sexual symptoms (EMAS only), a marker of physical dysfunction, or diabetes (<a href="https://www.excelmale.com/forum/javascript%3A;" target="_blank">Fig. 3</a>). Sensitivity analyses (not shown) considering the 1st and 5th percentiles, as opposed to the 2.5th, as the threshold value for low testosterone, yielded qualitatively concordant results.</em></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yet another paper I spent some time looking at:</p><p></p><p><em>At present (2004) there are no satisfactory evidence based, generally accepted norms for testosterone levels recognised for the aging male.</em></p><p></p><p><a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15316608/" target="_blank">[Testosterone deficiency and the problem of normal values] - PubMed</a></p><p></p><p>Wait, here is one more:</p><p></p><p><em><strong>What is normal?</strong></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Of the 25 labs, there were 17 and 13 different sets of reference values for total and free testosterone, respectively. <strong>The low reference value for total testosterone ranged from 130 to 450 ng/dL (350% difference),</strong> <strong>and the upper value ranged from 486 to 1,593 ng/dL (325% difference).</strong></em></p><p></p><p><a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17100942/" target="_blank">Wide variability in laboratory reference values for serum testosterone - PubMed</a></p><p></p><p>Since everyone has a different opinion and labs tend to have different reference norms, make it kind of difficult to tell what normal really is. This is a very new field maybe doctors like Lipshultz are right.</p><p></p><p>If you are say John Doe and you are taking 100mg and still have lot T symptoms, they what was the purpose going to the Low T clinic in the 1st place? I personally think this is a relatively new field that seem to be constantly clanging like most thing in science. I cold possibly be that we are all guinea pigs. Anyway, I would love to see one of the Doctors from Defy or even Dr. Lipshultz debate this as they are truly more expert in the field that anyone here. Yet we tell them they are wrong. </p><p></p><p>As a world class powerlifter and strength coach , I use to get so fed up with the guys in the lab coats telling us how to do our jobs. Most of them never lifted a weight in their lives. But they had no problem telling us how we can't be getting the results we get because their data shows we are wrong. Years later, the men in the white lab coats figured it all out. I use to argue with the Copper Clinic guys all the time about how weight lifters are in better cardiovascular shape that these aerobic people. No way right. They laughed, years later they are all eating some crow. Sometimes science needs to take at look at what those in the trenches are doing and try to figure out why they are getting the results they get.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="BigTex, post: 249633, member: 43589"] I wanted to post this but never got around to it yesterday: This comes from an old Farmington Study Mean 723.8 SD 221.1 99th percentile - 1322 [ATTACH type="full"]30240[/ATTACH] [URL="https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/96/8/2430/2834349"]Reference Ranges for Testosterone in Men Generated Using Liquid Chromatography Tandem Mass Spectrometry in a Community-Based Sample of Healthy Nonobese Young Men in the Framingham Heart Study and Applied to Three Geographically Distinct Cohorts[/URL] [I]The composite outcome indicates the following: in FHS, one or more of slow walking speed (walking speed in the lowest 20th percentile), self-reported mobility limitation, or diabetes; in EMAS, one or more of low frequency of morning erections, erectile dysfunction, low frequency of sexual thoughts, difficulty in climbing several stairs, limited in walking more than 1 km, slow walking speed (walking speed in the lowest 20th percentile), or diabetes; in MrOS, one or more of frailty, slow walking speed (walking speed in the lowest 20th percentile), or diabetes. In general, men with low total or free testosterone were more likely to have low walking speed, frailty, or physical symptoms than those with normal levels ([URL='https://www.excelmale.com/forum/javascript%3A;']Fig. 3[/URL]). Thus, EMAS participants with low total or free testosterone were more likely to report difficulty climbing stairs or have low walking speed (in the lowest 20th percentile). In MrOS, men with low total or free testosterone were more likely to have slow walking speed than those with normal testosterone; men with low free testosterone were also more likely to have frailty. As reported previously ([URL='https://www.excelmale.com/forum/javascript%3A;']20[/URL]), the FHS participants with low free testosterone were at higher risk of self-reported mobility limitation. In all three cohorts, the men with low total and free testosterone levels were nearly twice as likely to have DM as those with normal levels ([URL='https://www.excelmale.com/forum/javascript%3A;']Fig. 3[/URL]). Similarly, in all three cohorts, men with low total and free testosterone were more likely to have at least one of the following: sexual symptoms (EMAS only), a marker of physical dysfunction, or diabetes ([URL='https://www.excelmale.com/forum/javascript%3A;']Fig. 3[/URL]). Sensitivity analyses (not shown) considering the 1st and 5th percentiles, as opposed to the 2.5th, as the threshold value for low testosterone, yielded qualitatively concordant results.[/I] Yet another paper I spent some time looking at: [I]At present (2004) there are no satisfactory evidence based, generally accepted norms for testosterone levels recognised for the aging male.[/I] [URL="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15316608/"][Testosterone deficiency and the problem of normal values] - PubMed[/URL] Wait, here is one more: [I][B]What is normal?[/B] Of the 25 labs, there were 17 and 13 different sets of reference values for total and free testosterone, respectively. [B]The low reference value for total testosterone ranged from 130 to 450 ng/dL (350% difference),[/B] [B]and the upper value ranged from 486 to 1,593 ng/dL (325% difference).[/B][/I] [URL="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17100942/"]Wide variability in laboratory reference values for serum testosterone - PubMed[/URL] Since everyone has a different opinion and labs tend to have different reference norms, make it kind of difficult to tell what normal really is. This is a very new field maybe doctors like Lipshultz are right. If you are say John Doe and you are taking 100mg and still have lot T symptoms, they what was the purpose going to the Low T clinic in the 1st place? I personally think this is a relatively new field that seem to be constantly clanging like most thing in science. I cold possibly be that we are all guinea pigs. Anyway, I would love to see one of the Doctors from Defy or even Dr. Lipshultz debate this as they are truly more expert in the field that anyone here. Yet we tell them they are wrong. As a world class powerlifter and strength coach , I use to get so fed up with the guys in the lab coats telling us how to do our jobs. Most of them never lifted a weight in their lives. But they had no problem telling us how we can't be getting the results we get because their data shows we are wrong. Years later, the men in the white lab coats figured it all out. I use to argue with the Copper Clinic guys all the time about how weight lifters are in better cardiovascular shape that these aerobic people. No way right. They laughed, years later they are all eating some crow. Sometimes science needs to take at look at what those in the trenches are doing and try to figure out why they are getting the results they get. [/QUOTE]
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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
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“High-Normal T”
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