Hcg advice

Vince said:

I do supplement with Jarrow zinc balance, even before I started trt. I do enjoy sex Daily, at times twice daily and there's days when I don't get any. Even though I make very little semen, I do get a very strong sensation as if I have a big load.

Click to expand...

Vince, just curios, how many different supplements do you take a day?

Lee Panelas said:

Vince, just curios, how many different supplements do you take a day?

Click to expand...

The list is very long, I'm not at home right now when I get a chance, I'll try to remember to post them. Maybe I'll start a new thread and post the supplements that I take.

Vince said:

The list is very long, I'm not at home right now when I get a chance, I'll try to remember to post them. Maybe I'll start a new thread and post the supplements that I take.

Click to expand...

Yes sir please do post the list and what you take them for. Thanks!

Hey guys.. Little update of some symptoms since upping my hcg from 100iu daily to 350iu 3x week...and i am only on second injection..third will be tomorrow..
I know its early but..i see negitive things already.. My face is puffy already and my hands and feet are a bit puffy and stiff.. I always get a good boost in libido anytime i up my hcg dose but it just last a few days then the puffy face hits me and my whole package shrinks up.. I get a good boost in strength too...morning wood always kind comes and goes for me..so hard to tell...
What i feel for me is that hcg works really well ..maybe to well at boosting my T but at the same time jacks my e2 up...so first few days is always good but then it goes down hill.... I have to say in general my face has looked the worse i have ever seen on TRT..always kinda puffy..eyes look very tired and i have some mild eczema..redness...
I know all this needs to be confirmed with labs..but i still have a month to go before my Dr will do labs...hes not very keen on labs cause i live in Canada and can only get so many labs per yr.. And the e2 thing will always be hard because here we dont use the correct test and he says my e2 is fine..when in reality it is not... I had about 10 sets of labs over the last 5 yrs before starting trt and my first set of labs on trt my e2 score highest it had ever been ..and he said it is in range so its fine..and on a side note my free T was 1 point above bottom of range...

So what is a guy to do... I am struggling with testicular athropy and not feeling as good as i think i should... Hcg seems to not help my athropy and seems to jack up my e2...
The only real positive i notice from trt is a bit more strength and a bit of improvement of my mood... I don't have erection problems before starting and i dont now...my libido is so so..no less no more...my flaccid penis is alot smaller both before and now...
I am starting to feel like the benefits are not worth the headache...simply because its gonna be such a challenge to get dialed in with my Dr and the lack of labs ..
I ve been on trt with hcg for about 8 months... Would i recover? Would the restart protocol on Dr Saya site be the best course.. 1 month of hcg and nova..followed by 1 month of clomid..
If hcg is jacking up my e2 now wouldnt just hinder my recovery?

Just looking for thoughts guys
Thx

What province do you live in?

CoastWatcher said:

What province do you live in?

Click to expand...

I live in Nova Scotia

linter said:

i was making very little too until i started up with zinc and soy lecithin. now i get so much that my gf is always kind of blown away. bad part is it all comes out, sometimes with spurts, sometimes as a dribble, well before my actual climax. and by the time of climax there's nothing left, so i'm shooting zilch. which is a bummer, because my gf really really likes to see and/or feel climatic moon shots if we're doing oral or by hand.

equally a bummer: i can only come every 4th or 5th time we have sex. to help with that, i've got some cabergoline (sp) waiting for me at the pharmacist. hope it'll help; i guess it does for some and not for others. we shall see.

Click to expand...

Majority of the volume of seminal fluid comes from the male sex glands mainly the seminal vesicle/prostate and bulbourethral (cowper's) gland as the testes only contribute 5% or less of the volume of semen in ejaculate fluid.

One can still shoot big loads without the use of hcg when on testosterone.

Hcg mainly mimics lh which stimulates the leydig cells to produce iTT (intra-testicular testosterone). Leydig cells depend on chronic stimulation by lh for the maintenance of their structure and steroidogenic function.

If one is looking to maintain fertility while on trt and possibly prevent testicular shrinkage than hcg use is needed. Mind you the leydig cells only make up 10-20% of testicular volume so shrinkage should not be significant unless one had smaller testes naturally pre-trt.

Men with smaller testes may notice shrinkage more and may almost seem severe in some cases when in fact there testes were smaller naturally as oppose to one with naturally larger testes whom may not notice shrinkage as much.

As far as use of hcg to mimic lh and filling in the pathways to back stream hormones (as there are lh receptors located in other parts of the body) it has never been proven in the literature as I am not aware of any RDC studies in humans regarding benefits of hcg use regarding downstream hormones.

Some notice improvements when using hcg where many others do not.

http://schoor-urology.blogspot.ca/2008/08/low-volume-ejaculate-rational-approach.html

It sounds like your E2 is just too high and the estradiol test in Canada is for women so it does not work. I had the same problem but my MD gave me some anastrozole and I learned to take really small doses and it helped big time and then TRT started working really well for me. Your MD does not know how to manage TRT properly which is why 85% of men who start TRT give up on it. Can you get over to Maine to a Labcorp lab? 690 Minot Ave, Auburn, ME 04210

ratbag said:

It sounds like your E2 is just too high and the estradiol test in Canada is for women so it does not work. I had the same problem but my MD gave me some anastrozole and I learned to take really small doses and it helped big time and then TRT started working really well for me. Your MD does not know how to manage TRT properly which is why 85% of men who start TRT give up on it. Can you get over to Maine to a Labcorp lab? 690 Minot Ave, Auburn, ME 04210

Click to expand...

Thx for thr reply.. Traveling to Maine is not really a viable option... I agree with everything you have said about the e2 and my Dr..the options for Doctors prescribing trt and hcg are very hard to come by in canada and that is the only reason i stick with my current Dr..cause atleast he prescribes the correct meds... I actually have some Anastrozole on hand but i am nervous to add it in since its gonna be hard to monitor the effects with out labs... I ve taken Anastrozole in the past and i seem to be very sensitive to it...as little as .5 -1mg had me sleeping all day in about 3 weeks..
Thats my problem..with things like hcg and Anastrozole..i cant seem to find the sweet spot.. I know its there somewhere but i always seem to over or under shoot the mark.. I ve realized trt and be very challenging to manage

You have to be creative if you want to feel better. I took an empty testosterone vial washed it out added a 1mg Anastrozole tablet and added 2 ml of distilled water. Shook it up and used a syringe to take out .125mg (or 125 micrograms) of it and it was easy. I just spray it in my mouth and it's that easy. You are correct .5 to 1mg is a huge dose for most anyone. This is the only available way to control the dosage effectively without a compounding pharmacy making it for you. Especially being in Canada. It only takes a little bit to work. And as you found out most people end up taking too much of it.

ratbag said:

You have to be creative if you want to feel better. I took an empty testosterone vial washed it out added a 1mg Anastrozole tablet and added 2 ml of distilled water. Shook it up and used a syringe to take out .125mg (or 125 micrograms) of it and it was easy. I just spray it in my mouth and it's that easy. You are correct .5 to 1mg is a huge dose for most anyone. This is the only available way to control the dosage effectively without a compounding pharmacy making it for you. Especially being in Canada. It only takes a little bit to work. And as you found out most people end up taking too much of it.

Click to expand...

If it is the hcg that is the cause of my e2 problem..wouldnt Anastrozole be of no use?
And second wouldnt mean that the hcg is not gonna help with the athropy?
I ve read a few cases where guys who dont use hcg..add a small dose of clomid to combat athropy... I know many dont agree with this but i ve read posts on here of guys having success with clomid that Struggle with hcg

Anastrozole is less effective in the testicular environment so if that's the key point in your conversion perhaps too much HCG is spurring conversion in the testes then yes an AI would be less effective.

Added eventually if it's causing you so many problems and otherwise not working for you...you'll stop using it or question your commitment to using something that isn't treating you well.

Vince Carter said:

Anastrozole is less effective in the testicular environment so if that's the key point in your conversion perhaps too much HCG is spurring conversion in the testes then yes an AI would be less effective.

Added eventually if it's causing you so many problems and otherwise not working for you...you'll stop using it or question your commitment to using something that isn't treating you well.

Click to expand...

Thx for the reply Vince..
Since the start of trt my dose has never gone about 350iu at twice per week..which was just recently in an attempt to help with atrophy... In the beginning and gor the most part it was 250iu twice a week and then for maybe 6 weeks i tried 100iu daily..
When i switched from 100iu daily to 350iu twice a week or even when i went to 250iu..
I noticed in a few days a surge in libido and strength...would this indicate that its to much or that i am sensitive to hcg?

Vince Carter said:

For some of us HCG has no tangible anything with it, its like injecting plain water. You might be one of us. It keeps my nuts from being shriveled up but I get nothing else from it.

Click to expand...

So true. I have tried 500iu E3.5D and 250iu MWF.....all either did was significantly raise my E2.....I then went to 100IU daily and still got 0 benefit from a feeling or libido standpoint. I decided to try and find the minimum dosage that keeps my “nuts” full, with no atrophy pain and that was 250iu E3.5D. Also I use no AI now with lower HCG dosage. Other than the cosmetics, I may as well be shooting water as well.

So if it raises your E2 what do you expect? You are not managing your TRT properly if you let it do that. So you don't know if it works because you haven't managed it properly. Dropping the dose until you have no E2 issues is not a valid protocol because you simply don't know if HCG works or not because you didn't manage your E2. Therefore you don't know if it works. It's fine if you don't want to control your E2 but don't say it doesn't work if you don't manage it. This is why 85% of men stop TRT because it doesn't get managed properly. Whether it's because of an uninformed MD or the patient has expectations that are unreasonable.

ratbag said:

So if it raises your E2 what do you expect? You are not managing your TRT properly if you let it do that. So you don't know if it works because you haven't managed it properly. Dropping the dose until you have no E2 issues is not a valid protocol because you simply don't know if HCG works or not because you didn't manage your E2. Therefore you don't know if it works. It's fine if you don't want to control your E2 but don't say it doesn't work if you don't manage it. This is why 85% of men stop TRT because it doesn't get managed properly. Whether it's because of an uninformed MD or the patient has expectations that are unreasonable.

Click to expand...

Glad it works for you. Working with what I consider the best in Defy, HCG to this point has not had the libido or well being impact for me. It has eliminated atrophy and shrinkage. They have managed my E2 throughout the process with arimidex consistently 25-30 range. I did not drop the dose due to E2. I dropped the dose as it has no effect for me other than cosmetic and that allowed me to drop the AI, while keeping atrophy at bay....we are all different.

That's ok but in post #34 you said "all it did was significantly raise my E2" and that implied your E2 wasn't under control. Hence my reply. Yeah we are all different.. DHEA and progesterone are somewhat similar in that respect too.

Pringle said:

Glad it works for you. Working with what I consider the best in Defy, HCG to this point has not had the libido or well being impact for me. It has eliminated atrophy and shrinkage. They have managed my E2 throughout the process with arimidex consistently 25-30 range. I did not drop the dose due to E2. I dropped the dose as it has no effect for me other than cosmetic and that allowed me to drop the AI, while keeping atrophy at bay....we are all different.

Click to expand...

Hey Pringle
So did you have atrophy issues and they were resolved once you got the e2 under control?
I am wondering if the e2 is keeping the hcg from helping with the atrophy and once its in check the testes will fill out..

Can i ask your protocol.. Test..hcg and arimidex..dose and frequency?

lsr75 said:

Hey Pringle
So did you have atrophy issues and they were resolved once you got the e2 under control?
I am wondering if the e2 is keeping the hcg from helping with the atrophy and once its in check the testes will fill out..

Can i ask your protocol.. Test..hcg and arimidex..dose and frequency?

Click to expand...

I take Test C 50mg E3.5D. My atrophy and shrinkage went away quickly after starting my initial HCG dosage of 500iu E3.5D, injected on same days as T. Within 30 days of starting hcg, I was back to normal in size and no pain. My E2 was over range at that point and I still responded to the HCG from an atrophy perspective, so I do not believe higher E2 had any impact with MY response. My E2 continued to rise to above 50, with some negative symptoms, and Dr added Anastrozole .125mg E3.5D and dosed 250iu hcg MWF, which combined lowered my E2 into the 25-30 range.

Pringle said:

I take Test C 50mg E3.5D. My atrophy and shrinkage went away quickly after starting my initial HCG dosage of 500iu E3.5D, injected on same days as T. Within 30 days of starting hcg, I was back to normal in size and no pain. My E2 was over range at that point and I still responded to the HCG from an atrophy perspective, so I do not believe higher E2 had any impact with MY response. My E2 continued to rise to above 50, with some negative symptoms, and Dr added Anastrozole .125mg E3.5D and dosed 250iu hcg MWF, which combined lowered my E2 into the 25-30 range.

Click to expand...

I am jealous of your success... I wish i ould get dialed in like that... Its become very frustrating and confusion... The only conclusion i can come to about my atrophy is high E2 but then i listen to your case and it doesnt make sense... I heard alot ppl say that high e2 is not related to atrophy but to me this doesnt seem right..because high e2 is related to smaller erections and flaccid size...also i ve read about transgender m to f transition..and they inject estrogen to induce shrinkage...

It also doesnt make sence to me why hcg works for some but not others... I understsnd we are all different but our systems are the same..it should work for everyone...to me there must be other underlying issues with some ppl..

My protocol is almost identical to yours..
80mg a week test C in 2 inections..250iu to 350iu twice a week...but no AI at this point..
I am
42
5'4 ..145lbs..very lean..athletic..prob 10-12% body fat..
I am going to clinic today to see if i can some labs done...hopefully in a week i might have some insight.. But i am seriously considering coming off...maybe just try clomid for awhile...i am just not seeing the benefit from trt and dont have the resource to manage it properly...