Switching From Daily To EOD or Anything Else

[GreenMachineX]

I'm kind of in a predicament. I've been attempting daily injections for about 6 months now, and before that, I was doing EOD for 8 months. Before that, I was doing 50mg twice per week. All of these protocols have driven RBC/HGB/HCT to uncomfortable or borderline levels, but I think EOD was the best of all. Daily has given me the best blood pressure, but even at 4mg test cyp daily, terrible insomnia and anxiety. I'll summarize:

Daily: Best blood pressure, worst anxiety and insomnia, worst HGB/HCT
EOD: BP 140/70, fair sleep and mild anxiety, fair HGB/HCT (high 17's HGB, 51 HCT)
2x Per Week: worst BP, least anxiety and fair sleep, best HGB/HCT

Daily, I've tried 10mg, 7mg, 5mg and now have been at 4mg for several weeks. The anxiety and insomnia just won't quit. Right now, I'm on day 4 without a Daily shot, and days 2 and 3 had incredible sleep. I anticipate best sleep tonight as well as I can usually tell by 9pm how ill sleep that night.

I want to go back to EOD, but on this Daily protocol, the couple times I thought I was too low on test and went back up (for example, dropped to 7mg, felt bad, went back to 10mg, 2nd day of that was overstimulated, hard to breathe, heart pounding, etc). It's like I can't tolerate an increase after I've dropped it. Maybe I'm just too close to supraphysiologic with Daily protocols at the peak?

My plan is to let my levels drop by not using for a while because I'd rather feel hypo then that overstimulated and can't breathe feeling, then introduce low escalating doses EOD. Like this:

Week 1: 5mg EOD
Week 2: 7mg EOD
Week 3: 10mg EOD
And so on.

Does anyone have any thoughts? For anyone that has made the jump back to EOD or anything after daily, did you just switch right away?

I know I'm not supposed to be able to feel dose changes quickly whatsoever, but I sure do.

 

[Vince]

I'm kind of in a predicament. I've been attempting daily injections for about 6 months now, and before that, I was doing EOD for 8 months. Before that, I was doing 50mg twice per week. All of these protocols have driven RBC/HGB/HCT to uncomfortable or borderline levels, but I think EOD was the best of all. Daily has given me the best blood pressure, but even at 4mg test cyp daily, terrible insomnia and anxiety. I'll summarize:

Daily: Best blood pressure, worst anxiety and insomnia, worst HGB/HCT
EOD: BP 140/70, fair sleep and mild anxiety, fair HGB/HCT (high 17's HGB, 51 HCT)
2x Per Week: worst BP, least anxiety and fair sleep, best HGB/HCT

Daily, I've tried 10mg, 7mg, 5mg and now have been at 4mg for several weeks. The anxiety and insomnia just won't quit. Right now, I'm on day 4 without a Daily shot, and days 2 and 3 had incredible sleep. I anticipate best sleep tonight as well as I can usually tell by 9pm how ill sleep that night.

I want to go back to EOD, but on this Daily protocol, the couple times I thought I was too low on test and went back up (for example, dropped to 7mg, felt bad, went back to 10mg, 2nd day of that was overstimulated, hard to breathe, heart pounding, etc). It's like I can't tolerate an increase after I've dropped it. Maybe I'm just too close to supraphysiologic with Daily protocols at the peak?

My plan is to let my levels drop by not using for a while because I'd rather feel hypo then that overstimulated and can't breathe feeling, then introduce low escalating doses EOD. Like this:

Week 1: 5mg EOD
Week 2: 7mg EOD
Week 3: 10mg EOD
And so on.

Does anyone have any thoughts? For anyone that has made the jump back to EOD or anything after daily, did you just switch right away?

I know I'm not supposed to be able to feel dose changes quickly whatsoever, but I sure do.

I had case of insomnia for about 2 weeks. I switch my melatonin regiment. I started using melatonin 12 mg, 2 hours before bed to reset my sleep cycle. It's working! I'm able to sleep a good 6 to 7 hours a night now. It's great not feeling tired during the day.

I don't know if that will help you but it did work for me.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I had case of insomnia for about 2 weeks. I switch my melatonin regiment. I started using melatonin 12 mg, 2 hours before bed to reset my sleep cycle. It's working! I'm able to sleep a good 6 to 7 hours a night now. It's great not feeling tired during the day.

I don't know if that will help you but it did work for me.

Right on. Melatonin definitely helps me fall asleep, but my type of insomnia is more like I just drank 3 cups of coffee and laid down...I'll wake up in an hour or 2 and be awake the rest of the night overstimulated.

Regarding the daily protocol, I wonder if doing 4mg 2 days on, 1 day off, repeat might help? Or, alternate 4mg, 2mg, back and forth indefinitely?

@Cataceous do you have any thoughts on this? I should mention that the last time you were helping me, I started back up low side of 5mg (almost 4mg but not quite to the line) after that 2 week break, and it took about 4-6 weeks for the insomnia to start again.

 

[Vince]

Right on. Melatonin definitely helps me fall asleep, but my type of insomnia is more like I just drank 3 cups of coffee and laid down...I'll wake up in an hour or 2 and be awake the rest of the night overstimulated.

Regarding the daily protocol, I wonder if doing 4mg 2 days on, 1 day off, repeat might help? Or, alternate 4mg, 2mg, back and forth indefinitely?

@Cataceous do you have any thoughts on this? I should mention that the last time you were helping me, I started back up low side of 5mg (almost 4mg but not quite to the line) after that 2 week break, and it took about 4-6 weeks for the insomnia to start again.

Personally, I don't know how you can use so low of a dose. I would think your levels would be lower than if you used nothing at all?

 

[GreenMachineX]

Personally, I don't know how you can use so low of a dose. I would think your levels would be lower than if you used nothing at all?

My free T was still 105 (35-155) on 5mg daily at trough.

 

[Vince]

My free T was still 105 (35-155) on 5mg daily at trough.

I see your free T is in a good range. Do you know your levels before you started using testosterone?

 

[GreenMachineX]

I see your free T is in a good range. Do you know your levels before you started using testosterone?

8 years ago, it was mid 100's total T, but I don't know what free T was. Granted, at that time, i was unhealthy and obese. 6 years ago, I did a couple months of clomid at 25mg EOD (or maybe 12.5mg EOD), and got it up to 414 total T I think. Back then, I didn't know the value of free T so I eventually went back on. Maybe it's time to ask my doctor for clomid again, but it has been 6 years on since then...

 

[Charliebizz]

I don’t know if I ever said this to you before. But I personally notice a huge difference when I switched from cyp to enanthate. On cyp I couldn’t tolerate trt at all. It brought on so many strange symptoms and crushed my already low normal cortisol to bottom of the range. I have blood and saliva to confirm. For some reason enanthate does none of that. I can even run higher doses without feeling awful (but I do better around 90mg a week). On cyp the most I could tolerate was 60mg a week. I have no clue why that would be but it was a complete game changer for me. Almost sounds to good to be true.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I don’t know if I ever said this to you before. But I personally notice a huge difference when I switched from cyp to enanthate. On cyp I couldn’t tolerate trt at all. It brought on so many strange symptoms and crushed my already low normal cortisol to bottom of the range. I have blood and saliva to confirm. For some reason enanthate does none of that. I can even run higher doses without feeling awful (but I do better around 90mg a week). On cyp the most I could tolerate was 60mg a week. I have no clue why that would be but it was a complete game changer for me. Almost sounds to good to be true.

That's interesting. Any difference in testosterone levels with same dosage comparison? Like, does 60mg cyp give the same trough and peak that 60mg enan does?

 

[Charliebizz]

That's interesting. Any difference in testosterone levels with same dosage comparison? Like, does 60mg cyp give the same trough and peak that 60mg enan does?

What’s strange is it seemed cyp gave me higher numbers at same dose. But that’s not the difference in what I felt. I mean 100 mg of cyp would give me full blown panic attacks. I would have this insane fatigue. Twitching all over. I’ve gone as high as 160 a week on enanthate. No issues other then my energy levels dipped.

 

[Fortunate]

Right on. Melatonin definitely helps me fall asleep, but my type of insomnia is more like I just drank 3 cups of coffee and laid down...I'll wake up in an hour or 2 and be awake the rest of the night overstimulated.

Regarding the daily protocol, I wonder if doing 4mg 2 days on, 1 day off, repeat might help? Or, alternate 4mg, 2mg, back and forth indefinitely?

@Cataceous do you have any thoughts on this? I should mention that the last time you were helping me, I started back up low side of 5mg (almost 4mg but not quite to the line) after that 2 week break, and it took about 4-6 weeks for the insomnia to start again.

Any chance it’s related to something else? Have you had a thyroid panel? How is your general sleep hygiene? Do you take naps during the day? Do you drink a lot of caffeine? If so, when do you stop drinking caffeine?

In general, if you haven’t been able to fall back asleep within 15 minutes, try getting up and go to a different room. Also, set an alarm seven days a week. That way, if you wake up during the night, you will know that it’s not time to get up, as long as your alarm is not ringing.

Just some thoughts.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Any chance it’s related to something else? Have you had a thyroid panel? How is your general sleep hygiene? Do you take naps during the day? Do you drink a lot of caffeine? If so, when do you stop drinking caffeine?

In general, if you haven’t been able to fall back asleep within 15 minutes, try getting up and go to a different room. Also, set an alarm seven days a week. That way, if you wake up during the night, you will know that it’s not time to get up, as long as your alarm is not ringing.

Just some thoughts.

I'm on synthroid 125mcg daily and free t3 and free t4 labs are always in range. I've had labs where free t3 was near top of range, but never over. I guess that could be a factor?

No naps and never caffeine. But yes, another possible reason for my sleep issues is this b12/folate thing I'm battling also. I think they play a role together, like 1+1=3. It's a daily issue of how much I'll take off each and what side effects I'm ok with. So tired of this too.

 

[Cataceous]

...
Regarding the daily protocol, I wonder if doing 4mg 2 days on, 1 day off, repeat might help? Or, alternate 4mg, 2mg, back and forth indefinitely?

@Cataceous do you have any thoughts on this? I should mention that the last time you were helping me, I started back up low side of 5mg (almost 4mg but not quite to the line) after that 2 week break, and it took about 4-6 weeks for the insomnia to start again.

Propionate, or a propionate blend, or Natesto. These options can give you lower testosterone at night, with peak levels in the day high enough to avoid hypogonadism.

 

[Fortunate]

I'm on synthroid 125mcg daily and free t3 and free t4 labs are always in range. I've had labs where free t3 was near top of range, but never over. I guess that could be a factor?

No naps and never caffeine. But yes, another possible reason for my sleep issues is this b12/folate thing I'm battling also. I think they play a role together, like 1+1=3. It's a daily issue of how much I'll take off each and what side effects I'm ok with. So tired of this too.

One more recommendation that I forgot to mention: don’t look at your clock if you wake up during the night. That’s the point behind setting an alarm. If your alarm is not going off, then it’s time to sleep, no matter what.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Propionate, or a propionate blend, or Natesto. These options can give you lower testosterone at night, with peak levels in the day high enough to avoid hypogonadism.

I'll ask my doctor about it; I see him next month.

On a positive note, my cbc from yesterday looked great. Rbc 5.4, hgb 16.2, hct 47.3.

 

[Thagoobs]

I get all of your described issues when my estrogen is out of range

 

[Fortunate]

I get all of your described issues when my estrogen is out of range

For a tiny data point, I’ll add to this comment: I kinda agree. I have felt pretty bad a few times on TRT and each time, I have labs that show both testosterone and E2 being high. I have been leery to mess with an AI because I have had a few experiences in which I felt bad after taking it. I suspect I lowered it too low, and “crashed” it. People have used the term “garbage” to describe the way it feels, and I think this is a good word.

That said, recently, I had a nightly experience of mild anxiety that started about 12 hours after injecting. I suspected it was either peaking T levels or E2 levels. Reluctantly, I took a single dose of 0.25mg of anastrazole and the episodes have stopped. This could be a reflection of something else, and not related to the anastrazole, but I plan to take it again down the road if I start feeling this way.

E2 is a polarizing topic, so I tread lightly, but I am more and more confident that even mildly elevated levels bother me.

 

[Fortunate]

Update on my comments above. This is more stream of consciousness than a specific question, hoping it may help someone else out there:

I have been injecting 10mg enanthate daily. A few weeks ago, I began to notice anxiety and tachycardia about 12 hours after my injection. I wasn't sure if it was due to Tmax levels (peaking at 12 hours) or E2 peaking. 12 days ago, I took a dose of anastrazole and posted above. Since then, I have taken anastrozole a few times.

I forgot about the 12 hour anxiety phenomenon until last night, when I had it again. I still don't know what is triggering these episodes. I last took anastrozole 0.125mg one day prior to last night's anxiety/tachycardia. So, it's still not clear to me if the episodes are from T levels or E2 levels that are still not under control.

I am on week 8 of microdosing and have done 2 weeks consistently at the same dose (10mg enanthate daily). One would think that by now, I should know if this is the protocol for me. I thought about bailing and just going back to Natesto, but then all the micro-experimentation would be for naught. In fairness, during the 8 weeks, I mixed in small doses of nandrolone here and there, but last dose of 5mg was two weeks ago.

So, in the spirit of data gathering, I have decided to give this process a little more time. I will re-dose anastrazole 0.125mg and go ahead with my daily injection. If I experience the anxiety and tachycardia again tonight, I will have more confidence that this has nothing to do with E2 and will likely transition back to Natesto.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Update on my comments above. This is more stream of consciousness than a specific question, hoping it may help someone else out there:

I have been injecting 10mg enanthate daily. A few weeks ago, I began to notice anxiety and tachycardia about 12 hours after my injection. I wasn't sure if it was due to Tmax levels (peaking at 12 hours) or E2 peaking. 12 days ago, I took a dose of anastrazole and posted above. Since then, I have taken anastrozole a few times.

I forgot about the 12 hour anxiety phenomenon until last night, when I had it again. I still don't know what is triggering these episodes. I last took anastrozole 0.125mg one day prior to last night's anxiety/tachycardia. So, it's still not clear to me if the episodes are from T levels or E2 levels that are still not under control.

I am on week 8 of microdosing and have done 2 weeks consistently at the same dose (10mg enanthate daily). One would think that by now, I should know if this is the protocol for me. I thought about bailing and just going back to Natesto, but then all the micro-experimentation would be for naught. In fairness, during the 8 weeks, I mixed in small doses of nandrolone here and there, but last dose of 5mg was two weeks ago.

So, in the spirit of data gathering, I have decided to give this process a little more time. I will re-dose anastrazole 0.125mg and go ahead with my daily injection. If I experience the anxiety and tachycardia again tonight, I will have more confidence that this has nothing to do with E2 and will likely transition back to Natesto.

How high was the tachycardia?

 

[Fortunate]

How high was the tachycardia?

Low 90’s.