Is low dose nandrolone safe?

[Fortunate]

This one looks like a good one to start with.

 

[Fortunate]

Several things..I don't agree at all that "zero nandrolone is safest" . If the direct benefits (e.g. reduced joint pain and hence, increased activity) and/or indirect benefits (motivation to get to the gym and do quality workouts) outweigh any (likely low/unknown) risks, then zero is not necessarily anywhere close to lowest risk. I would titrate down to lowest effective dose and then monitor health markers from there. And there is almost certainly no "ideal" level of Testosterone that can be applied to an individual. Also, most people, in their search for health-span, wildly over-focus on a few things rather than looking at a broader spectrum. For example, everything in the list in the following link is likely more important than Nandrolone, since everything in the list is a very strong factor in multiple aspects of health, especially Cardiovascular health. Everyone would be far better off focusing on gum health (to pick just one) rather than stressing over T or N, especially when T and N have profound benefits in many people.

Excellent points. But, where is the link?

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

It should be there now, but here it is:

20 Heart-Healthy Actions With Better Risk/Reward Than Statins

Here at Excelmale there are frequent posts discussing the pros and cons of statins, and one in particular several weeks ago where a position paper was cited where the assumption was that statins are not only a viable option but should be the first line of defense against heart disease. As I have...

www.excelmale.com

 

[tareload]

@readalot had a life altering discovery about his cardiac health. He is confident that TRT contributed to it.

Am I confident? No. As I have mentioned my issue could have been the result of a bunch of different things. I can currently testing the hypothesis that exogenous T was the culprit. Who knows.

(animal model dosing in relation to human dosing)

Here you go in case you missed it. All my posts here down summarizing the last 30 years of research in rodents and conversion to human dosing.

Probably of very limited utility for a number of reasons.

TRT to Supraphysiological Levels for Body Building

A key degree of freedom (that makes your question difficult to answer with a reasonable degree of confidence) is time. Chronic toxicity or acute toxicity? The figure above, while simplified, is instructive as an introduction. Add time above to make a 3d plot which would consider chronic...

www.excelmale.com

 

[JimGainz]

I love nandrolone. It made a new man out of me. I’m working out harder and looking better than I did in 25 years. I take 50-60 mg every 3 days ( the variance is because I don’t care if I’m that precise when filling the syringe.

Latest labs had me in optimal area on all lipid profiles but I take statin. I ache all over when I come off and feel great, mentally and physically, when I'm on.
I try to cycle it like 6 months on one off.

I am not worried about those studies at all. Perhaps I should be but it’s made a huge difference in my life.

 

[Steve78]

I love nandrolone. It made a new man out of me. I’m working out harder and looking better than I did in 25 years. I take 50-60 mg every 3 days ( the variance is because I don’t care if I’m that precise when filling the syringe.

Latest labs had me in optimal area on all lipid profiles but I take statin. I ache all over when I come off and feel great, mentally and physically, when I'm on.
I try to cycle it like 6 months on one off.

I am not worried about those studies at all. Perhaps I should be but it’s made a huge difference in my life.

Good to hear. These are the discussions I was hoping for.

Did nandrolone increase your blood pressure a lot?

 

[Fortunate]

I love nandrolone. It made a new man out of me. I’m working out harder and looking better than I did in 25 years. I take 50-60 mg every 3 days ( the variance is because I don’t care if I’m that precise when filling the syringe.

Latest labs had me in optimal area on all lipid profiles but I take statin. I ache all over when I come off and feel great, mentally and physically, when I'm on.
I try to cycle it like 6 months on one off.

I am not worried about those studies at all. Perhaps I should be but it’s made a huge difference in my life.

I was hoping for this. Unfortunately, for me, it didn’t work out that way. It is incredibly individual.

 

[JimGainz]

Good to hear. These are the discussions I was hoping for.

Did nandrolone increase your blood pressure a lot?

Not a lot - my physical last month had me at 122/80. On good days I’d be 117/77 or so. I bet if I checked it regularly it would be lower.

 

[Gman86]

I think about the same thing the OP does about nandrolone all the time. I’m currently back on nandrolone at 100mg/ week. There were a few factors that made me feel comfortable adding it back to my protocol, but the main thing was following Dr. Lichten’s work. He’s a huge proponent of nandrolone, and uses it very frequently when treating his patients, male and female, and has been for probably 20+ years. He’s one of the only doctors/ people that I’ve heard talk about the health benefits that nandrolone offers, that other compounds don’t. It’s a very unique AAS. He uses it to treat all sorts of conditions. Such as Crohn’s disease, lupus, heart failure, and really any condition that is due to inflammation or has to do with the immune system. Here’s an interview he did that was pretty informative, and he goes over his views on hormone therapy. He’s the first doctor I know of that was using multiple AAS to treat health conditions and to optimize his patients, not just testosterone. Here’s the interview if u want to check it out. He also has a bunch of podcast episodes he put out a while back, but they still hold up to this day, and imo are some of the best podcasts on hormone therapy and what it can do that I’ve come across to date. I’ll link those as well. He doesn’t always reference nandrolone specifically, but just know that if he’s treating an inflammatory or immune system based condition, he’s most likely using nandrolone to treat that patient. He does reference it specifically tho in quite a few episodes. And lastly, there’s another doctor, Dr. Jeffrey Ruterbusch, that’s apparently been using it himself for around 20 years, and seems to be in good spirits and doing fine health wise. He actually learned about the benefits of nandrolone from Dr. Lichten. Here’s a couple quick vids where he talks about nandrolone

​

 

[Gman86]

‎The Lichten Lifestyle - Hormones for Life on Apple Podcasts

‎Health & Fitness · 2012

podcasts.apple.com

‎The Lichten Lifestyle - Hormonal Health on Apple Podcasts

‎Health & Fitness · 2009

podcasts.apple.com

‎Hormone Replacement Therapy on Apple Podcasts

‎Health & Fitness · 2009

podcasts.apple.com

 

[tareload]

I think it's a really good homework assignment

Was already completed for Testosterone. Huge amount of time. Got almost no questions or discussion about that. Good question.

There are quite a few people we already know who keep their trough TT at 1000-1200 ng/dl year round. For years. The question is will their experience be applicable to you. Hence the beauty of a bell curve.

TRT to Supraphysiological Levels for Body Building

Of course that's taking some liberties (cherry picking the blue and red data points but FWIW. Ok, update to post #93 above. I took all the rodent studies with testosterone and combined with the PK modeling of this paper. Doing so allows me to take the calculated weekly mean HEDs in post 93...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Steve78]

Just on a side note, most trt docs have a financial gain in writing multiple compounds, they get much more money adding nandrolone and compounds that I think are worthless like sermorelin etc…

 

[Steve78]

I really think Nelson is correct, anything that alters chol and rises bp long term is not ideal for longevity but maybe like in life, everything in moderation, maybe 3-4 months a year of low dose nandrolone wouldn’t be that detrimental…

 

[Gman86]

I really think Nelson is correct, anything that alters chol and rises bp long term is not ideal for longevity but maybe like in life, everything in moderation, maybe 3-4 months a year of low dose nandrolone wouldn’t be that detrimental…

I’m not trying to talk anyone into using or not using nandrolone or anything, but u literally just described testosterone as well. And none of us are cycling that. There’s guys that see their HDL decrease, LDL increase, and BP increase on testosterone alone. Just like there’s plenty of guys that don’t see any negative effects to their lipids or BP when using low dose nandrolone. Each compound effects everyone differently. I, for instance, don’t see a rise in BP or negative effects to my lipid panel when adding in low dose nandrolone. But I obv don’t see anything wrong with erring on the side of caution and only using nandrolone 3-4 months out of the year. It’s just not good to generalize based on one person’s anecdotal experience. Whether it be something positive or negative

 

[Gman86]

I love nandrolone. It made a new man out of me. I’m working out harder and looking better than I did in 25 years. I take 50-60 mg every 3 days ( the variance is because I don’t care if I’m that precise when filling the syringe.

Latest labs had me in optimal area on all lipid profiles but I take statin. I ache all over when I come off and feel great, mentally and physically, when I'm on.
I try to cycle it like 6 months on one off.

I am not worried about those studies at all. Perhaps I should be but it’s made a huge difference in my life.

What’s ur current full protocol? Last time I checked u were using 70mg of both test and nandrolone. But looks like u’ve upped ur nandrolone a bit. So curious if u adjusted the rest of ur protocol at all

 

[Biobro]

”Never trust a fat doctor”

 

[tareload]

https://scholars.direct/Articles/gastroenterology/jgr-3-019.pdf

We should journal club this article. Would one be taking very low dose AAS to treat inflammatory / autoimmune / dermatological disease or build muscle or both?

The daily dosing for the former very different than the second. 0.5 to 2 mg day of stanozolol about as high as used in dermatology field over years. Oxandrolone similar on a mg/kg basis up to 5 years in humans. Important to not fool yourself in taking literature and standard of care for these disease conditions and then rationalizating 25 to 50 mg/day of oxandrolone or stanozolol long term with 12 weeks and 12 weeks off is the same.

Long term use of 50 to 100 mg/week nandrolone a safer option? Cardiac wise I am not sure but the anhedonia and mental effects tell me it is most likely much more neurotoxic compared to T on a mg to mg basis (my experience). Also plenty of mechanistic discussion in the literature.

For that matter 1200 ng/dl TT trough vs 300 ng/dl TT trough is night and day different for me once you rationally think about it and judge dose response effects (it is a multi year project to get these data for yourself).

 

[tareload]

. It's almost as though the psychological feeling of dullness/flatness was present, but also manifested itself physically in my left forehead. It wasn't dramatic, but I hated the way it felt. I imagine that some guys may take nandrolone, may experience what I am describing on a low level, and over time, it becomes a pervasive, overwhelming feeling that can best be described as depression. Like everyone else, I like to hear anecdotes, and I have heard others describe a dull/anhedonic emotional state while on nandrolone. And, I think it's an insidious process that slowly sneaks up on you like poison.

Excellent summary. 12 to 16 weeks for these results to manifest and then another 12 weeks to feel semblance of recovery once you stop. Very hard to be objective as the changes manifest slowly. Tread carefully to judge your reactions.

 

[DS3]

Important to not fool yourself in taking literature and standard of care for these disease conditions and then rationalizating 25 to 50 mg/day of oxandrolone or stanozolol long term with 12 weeks and 12 weeks off is the same.

This is an excellent point.

but the anhedonia and mental effects tell me it is most likely much more neurotoxic compared to T on a mg to mg basis (my experience). Also plenty of mechanistic discussion in the literature.

Agreed fully. Nandrolone’s potential neurotoxic effects are cited in the literature.

 

[DS3]

I also noticed what I would describe as a dull or blunted feeling - both physically in my head as well as emotionally. It's hard to describe. It's almost as though the psychological feeling of dullness/flatness was present, but also manifested itself physically in my left forehead. It wasn't dramatic, but I hated the way it felt. I imagine that some guys may take nandrolone, may experience what I am describing on a low level, and over time, it becomes a pervasive, overwhelming feeling that can best be described as depression. Like everyone else, I like to hear anecdotes, and I have heard others describe a dull/anhedonic emotional state while on nandrolone. And, I think it's an insidious process that slowly sneaks up on you like poison.

This is exactly how I’ve felt in the past using nandrolone. At about the 6-week mark, depression and lethargy were unbearable. Additionally, and this is something I do not hear many people post about, short-term memory deficits were extremely prevalent…almost to the point of feeling like an early dementia patient. Neurotoxic effects are noted in the literature. Though not comprehensive literature nor tested specifically in the setting we are discussing, I experienced what I would consider to be extreme neurotoxic effects resulting in not only drastic mood alterations but worrisome reductions in cognitive function.

All side effects reversed after cessation.