Help with sleep issues

[Systemlord]

Young males can have daily fluctuations greater than 50% in serum testosterone.

I could have been more accurate, older men have less fluctuations than younger men.

 

[Cataceous]

I could have been more accurate, older men have less fluctuations than younger men.

Which begs the question: do we want old-man hormones or young-man hormones? A reasonable hypothesis is that daily variations in testosterone are good, but variations over several days are less good, perhaps even less good than constant levels (with the same average). There's some theoretical support for the idea that slower variations in serum testosterone produce greater peak estradiol than faster ones.

 

[Systemlord]

Which begs the question: do we want old-man hormones or young-man hormones? A reasonable hypothesis is that daily variations in testosterone are good, but variations over several days are less good,

One reason why I never reccomend nebido, it virtually eliminates the fluctuations and creates the hormone profile of an older men.

 

[DragonBits]

I could have been more accurate, older men have less fluctuations than younger men.

Dead people have even less fluctuation.

Emphasize is to say, older men don't have a lot of testosterone to be able to fluctuate. I think it's the total amount of T that is important, not daily fluctuations.

One reason why I never reccomend nebido, it virtually eliminates the fluctuations and creates the hormone profile of an older men.

Well, I take Nebido, it doesn't fluctuate day to day, but it doesn't create a lot of estrogen, virtually no elevated HCT and unlike older men, my total T is high. The only time I see a lot of E2 is a week after an injection when my total T can go to 1300.

I don't think fluctuating from say 200 ng - 400 ng T is going to make any one feel better even though it's doubling.

I think what creates a lot of the problems people see is when T rises above 1000- 1200 shortly after an injection. It's not really the lack or presence of fluctuating T levels, it's when those levels constantly go below and above healthy levels. For instance, when T goes below 600 one day, then above 1200 a few days later, repeating that sort of cycle often, causes many men problems.

IMO the reason daily injections works well for many men is not because it mimics daily fluctuations, it's because the smaller injections of T causes a less violent rise in total T which causes less E2 and less problems with HCT.

 

[Cataceous]

...
IMO the reason daily injections works well for many men is not because it mimics daily fluctuations, it's because the smaller injections of T causes a less violent rise in total T which causes less E2 and less problems with HCT.

The data suggest that daily injections of T propionate result in relatively small variations in serum testosterone. So few guys are actually testing the hypothesis.

I agree that it's preferable to avoid supraphysiological hormonal surges. But at the other end, I don't think anyone's arguing that adding variation to sub-physiological levels is going to be that useful. The question is whether there are useful differences between having serum T at a constant level, e.g. 600 ng/dL, and daily fluctuations about that level, e.g. from 400 to 800 ng/dL.

 

[S1W]

Which begs the question: do we want old-man hormones or young-man hormones? A reasonable hypothesis is that daily variations in testosterone are good, but variations over several days are less good, perhaps even less good than constant levels (with the same average). There's some theoretical support for the idea that slower variations in serum testosterone produce greater peak estradiol than faster ones.

I like your line of thinking.

Just to add to the conversation - younger men generally have higher testosterone levels, which may be something we're trying to emulate with TRT, but I wonder if we should be trying to emulate the larger variations that are also typical of younger men?

Teenage through early 20 something males are often moody and unstable mentally. Some of this is likely due to the hormonal rollercoaster. We've all heard it said in reference to goofy young males, "They're all hormones run amok".

Maybe we want the stability of old man hormones with the levels of young man hormones...

 

[fifty]

Lack of fluctuations = lack of sleep?

 

[Vince]

I hear you. I’ve been trying for 4 years. I’m not even sure that the guys that are “dialed in” are truly all good. They just live with it.

I would have to disagree with you. I'm one of the older guys and I'm completely dialed in. I really have zero issues.

 

[Gman86]

Lack of fluctuations = lack of sleep?

Idk, I can only speak from my own experience, but when I have consistent levels, with very little fluctuations, my sleep is just fine.

 

[S1W]

I hear you. I’ve been trying for 4 years. I’m not even sure that the guys that are “dialed in” are truly all good. They just live with it.

I certainly understand the way you feel. I've been at it for 2.5 years and am still experimenting with protocol adjustments.

Something I've noticed over and over again is that more often than not, guys that do well have typically done 2 things:

1. Lowered their overall weekly dose.
2. Gone to smaller, more frequent injections.

Occasionally we hear from someone who is an exception, but it seems that most of the guys who switch to a lower overall weekly dose and inject daily, AND really give it an honest and patient try, report positive outcomes.

I'm considering trying it myself and seeing what it is all about. I would not be surprised to be one of those guys who, after years of taking too much test and experimenting with protocols, comes back and says, "I finally figured it out - all I needed to do was lower my dose".

Through my own trial and error so far, I am 99% sure that for me, sleep disruption and heart rate issues (and other issues too) are directly correlated with using too high of a dose.

 

[Cataceous]

...
Just to add to the conversation - younger men generally have higher testosterone levels, which may be something we're trying to emulate with TRT, but I wonder if we should be trying to emulate the larger variations that are also typical of younger men?

Teenage through early 20 something males are often moody and unstable mentally. Some of this is likely due to the hormonal rollercoaster. We've all heard it said in reference to goofy young males, "They're all hormones run amok".

Maybe we want the stability of old man hormones with the levels of young man hormones...

I think the issues with young males are more attributable to lack of full brain development. I believe there are some papers out there on the subject.

I've been dabbling in trying to achieve diurnal variation in testosterone, and at no time have I become moody or "unstable." Now admittedly this is far from definitive data, as I haven't yet even verified what sort of variation I'm getting. But in time I hope to learn more.

The other reason to be interested in the "right" kind of hormonal fluctuations is the large number of anecdotal reports from TRT users who get their best results during transitions, increasing or decreasing doses.

 

[S1W]

The other reason to be interested in the "right" kind of hormonal fluctuations is the large number of anecdotal reports from TRT users who get their best results during transitions, increasing or decreasing doses.

Good point - I have noticed this too, mainly in regards to libido/erectile function.

 

[DragonBits]

The data suggest that daily injections of T propionate result in relatively small variations in serum testosterone. So few guys are actually testing the hypothesis.

I agree that it's preferable to avoid supraphysiological hormonal surges. But at the other end, I don't think anyone's arguing that adding variation to sub-physiological levels is going to be that useful. The question is whether there are useful differences between having serum T at a constant level, e.g. 600 ng/dL, and daily fluctuations about that level, e.g. from 400 to 800 ng/dL.

This is a study of sleep and testosterone levels taken every 15 min during sleep. It does affect time of REM sleep.

It's not at all possible IMO to duplicated natural testosterone pulses through any means. You can get some sort of rapid rise and gradual fall during the day at best, but you are ignoring the pulsatative nature of T.

The study was of sleep and testosterone levels taken every 15 min in young men (age 23.9) Vs middle aged men (age 46.6) during sleep and it's affect on sleep stages.

Also interesting, young men in this study young men had a mean nocturnal T of 5.0 1.3 ng/ml, which is a lot lower than many men on TRT.

abstract:

Aging men largely maintain their testicular androgen production. Cross-sectional studies have demonstrated that after the age of 40 yr a 0.2–2% annual decline is observed in morning total testosterone. In elderly males, the coordinate release of LH and testosterone became asynchronous despite normal serum levels of these hormones.

The aim of this study was to test the reproductive hormone rhythm at night in middle-aged men. We studied seven healthy middle-aged (46.6 6.7 yr) and six healthy young (23.9 2.4 yr) men by determining their serum levels of LH and testosterone levels every 15 min from 1900–0700 h with simultaneous sleep recordings. The nocturnal rise in testosterone occurred earlier in young men (2235 0022 h) and at 2331 0057 h in middle-aged men (P < 0.04). In young men, the mean testosterone level at night (5.0 1.3 ng/ml; 17.4 4.4 nmol/liter) and the integrated nocturnal secretion [area under the curve (AUC); 60.6 8.9 ng/mlh; 210 31 nmol/literh] were significantly higher compared with the values (3.6 1.1 and 31.1 7.2 ng/mlh; 12.6 3.8 and 108 24.8 nmol/literh, respectively) observed in middle-aged men (P < 0.04 and P < 0.01, respectively). The mean (3.5 0.3 mIU/ml; 3.5 0.3 IU/liter) and AUC (43.4 8.3 mIU/mlh; 43.4 8.3 IU/literh) LH values in middleaged men were significantly higher than the values observed in young men (2.0 0.7 and 30.8 6.1 mIU/mlh; 2.0 0.7 and 30.8 6.1 IU/literh; P < 0.05 and P < 0.01, respectively). Young men had significantly more testosterone pulses at night (6.7 1.6/12 vs. 3.8 1.1/12 h in middle-aged men; P < 0.005) of shorter interpulse interval (88.5 23.6 vs. 137.4 46.4 min; P < 0.02). LH pulse characteristics and sleep quality were similar in both groups. However, the first rapid eye movement (REM) sleep episode occurred earlier in middle-aged men (2303 0034 h) vs. young men (0010 0054 h; P < 0.04). As a consequence, the testosterone rise antedated the first REM episode by 90 min in young men. The link between testosterone rise and REM sleep episode was not observed in middle-aged men. Linear regression analysis revealed that the LH AUC was significantly related to age (P < 0.02). Analysis of covariance revealed that the two groups differed significantly in testosterone AUC (P < 0.04).

Comparison of LH and testosterone concentrations showed significant and positive cross-correlations between LH and testosterone only in young men, with the testosterone rise lagging 60 min after the rise in LH. Our findings suggest that in middle-aged men, less pulsatile testosterone and more LH are secreted at night than in young men, with disruption of the association between testosterone rhythm and REM sleep. The decline in nocturnal testosterone secretion appears to involve a combination of testicular and pituitary hypogonadism. (J Clin Endocrinol Metab 88: 3160–3166, 2003)

Middle-Aged Men Secrete Less Testosterone at Night Than Young Healthy Men

 

[DragonBits]

I think the issues with young males are more attributable to lack of full brain development. I believe there are some papers out there on the subject.

I've been dabbling in trying to achieve diurnal variation in testosterone, and at no time have I become moody or "unstable." Now admittedly this is far from definitive data, as I haven't yet even verified what sort of variation I'm getting. But in time I hope to learn more.

The other reason to be interested in the "right" kind of hormonal fluctuations is the large number of anecdotal reports from TRT users who get their best results during transitions, increasing or decreasing doses.

What sort of health results are you looking for that you find lacking?

Increased libido, energy, ???

 

[fifty]

Still fluctuations either way that don’t occur on trt.

 

[Cataceous]

What sort of health results are you looking for that you find lacking?

Increased libido, energy, ???

I'm interested in the effects on libido, as lack thereof is such a common complaint of men on TRT. Numerous threads on this here and ongoing over at peaktestosterone.com.

 

[Gman86]

I'm interested in the effects on libido, as lack thereof is such a common complaint of men on TRT. Numerous threads on this here and ongoing over at peaktestosterone.com.

Just listened to this podcast on PT-141. Very very interesting peptide in regards to libido. Check it out.

 

[fifty]

I'm interested in the effects on libido, as lack thereof is such a common complaint of men on TRT. Numerous threads on this here and ongoing over at peaktestosterone.com.

I always thought libido was supposed to be the most reliable benefit.

 

[Gman86]

I always thought libido was supposed to be the most reliable benefit.

That’s so true. Testosterone is supposed to be the main driver of libido. It is a little odd that so many guys here have issues with libido right?

 

[DragonBits]

I'm interested in the effects on libido, as lack thereof is such a common complaint of men on TRT. Numerous threads on this here and ongoing over at peaktestosterone.com.

Libido is so much more than just hormones.

It's kind of like saying, I am on TRT why aren't I stronger? To get stronger, we know we need T plus a lot of hard work.

I spent 25 years looking at how to increase peak sexual enjoyment, which also increases general libido.

Once you have a good hormonal base, you need to optimize your sexual environment. Seek out those sorts of activities that really light your fire.

Before I was married, I sometimes went from one sexual partner to the next within the same day or following day.

Partner one, I click with very well, partner two, not well.

I know from past experience my max orgasm / ejaculation performance to be 5 times in a 8 hour period. This would be with "partner one" and it's assuming I hadn't had any form of sex for at least a week.

However, with "partner two" it would be one and done, because I just can't find a way to really click with her. Even if I hadn't had sex within a week, I can tell with partner two repeat performances will be boring and people are not easily amendable to change. This will lower my libido dramatically.

This has happened (5x 8 hours) after 8 months with Nebido, and I was 58 at that time. Certainly it has happened when I was in my 20-30s, but that was with whatever my natural T level was. I assume any TRT product that raised my total T to above 700 would have worked the same way, but I don't really know since I didn't experiment.

Peak libido isn't totally enjoyable, getting erections all day long for no particular reason, thinking of sex constantly, etc. It's surprising at age 58, but not a long term easy way to live.

I have found 2-3 sexual partners to be the most exciting, if you can somehow manage that without creating drama, which from my experience is very difficult to avoid in the longer term.

Being married decreases libido since I wouldn't want to cheat or have an open marriage, but having a more steady but not excessive libido is actually preferable.

It's my experience that you can't depend on drugs/hormones without any other effort and expect a really high libido.

Good luck on whatever you are looking for.