SubQ might not doing it for me

[Gianluca]

I have tried subQ for several months now, I don't think I absorb it as much as IM. I have used a similar protocol 2 years ago IM I could compare to this. It was .25ml 3 x week, HCG and AI at .28mg, I don't remember the frequency of HCG and AI then.

The only problem is, the test was done at Quest lab, and I get confused with the FT compared to LabCorp , results were:
Estradiol Sensitive 43 pg/ml,
TT 690 ng/dl,
FT 213 pg/ml scale 35/155 pg/ml

Do you guys think that 213 pg/ml on quest scale compare to 21.3 on Labcorp scale or just above range?

my protocol for the attached lab is .27ml subQ 3 x week, no HCG, no AI, also 60mg NP Thyroid. My current protocol.

what do you guys think of DHT? I tested it as I always have bad acne and just in case I would need to switch to cream.

 

[Gianluca]

Actually to mention, my dose was increased last month from .35ml 2 x week to the current .27ml 3 x week. That increased my FT only 3 pg/ml

 

[Vince]

I did try Sub-Q for a few months, I did not like the results. I find that for me shallow IM works the best.

 

[Cataceous]

Absorption with subQ is going to be the same, basically 100%. It's the timing of release that's different. However, with frequent injections of a long-lived ester the difference in serum levels should be negligible. Your results are compatible with this. There can be significant inter-test variability, and hCG can make a nontrivial contribution to total testosterone.

Regarding free T, if you use equilibrium dialysis or LC/MS to test then results might be comparable between labs. Otherwise, forget it. Simpler is to always measure SHBG with total T and calculate free T. These numbers should be fairly consistent between labs.

 

[HealthMan]

My TT and FT dropped quite a bit when switching to subq. At some point i even increased the dosage and my levels were still much lower plus I didn’t feel as good

 

[Cataceous]

The Antares clinical trial demonstrated comparable absorption between subQ and IM. Even average estradiol was the same.

 

[HealthMan]

The Antares clinical trial demonstrated comparable absorption between subQ and IM. Even average estradiol was the same.

This study doesn’t compare apples to apples. It compares suqb 50-100mg to IM 200mg. Its conclusion is that both methods bring T to normal range. Useless study for the most part to compare SUBQ vs IM using same dosage

 

[HealthMan]

Absorption with subQ is going to be the same, basically 100%. It's the timing of release that's different. However, with frequent injections of a long-lived ester the difference in serum levels should be negligible. Your results are compatible with this. There can be significant inter-test variability, and hCG can make a nontrivial contribution to total testosterone.

Regarding free T, if you use equilibrium dialysis or LC/MS to test then results might be comparable between labs. Otherwise, forget it. Simpler is to always measure SHBG with total T and calculate free T. These numbers should be fairly consistent between labs.

Lymphatic systems plays a role in the absorption of SUBQ injections. It is not fully understood though. There are some studies out there that talk about this subject. But basically depending on the drug absorption is not 100%. Google “subcutaneous injection lymphatic system”

 

[HealthMan]

Bottom line is don’t over complicate things. If you feel better using one method compared to the other just stick to the method that works. SUBQ does deliver testosterone more slowly than IM and it might help control E2 for example.
However a lot of people see very different TT and FT levels when they try both methods using exactly the same dosage and injection schedule.

 

[BJE]

I’ve been doing sub q for about seven years. It’s worked great for me. I’ve tried everything from twice weekly injections to daily injections. I’ve settled on twice weekly. I have no problem getting into the high normal or over the top of the range. If you have to inject more to reach your desired level then inject more. However there are indications that more frequent sub q injections keep levels up with a lower dose.

At any rate I prefer to use a 31g 6mm insulin syringe SQ over poking hundreds holes into my muscles.

Also, in my testing, my dose of HCG seems to add 200-300 to my total test level.

 

[Cataceous]

This study doesn’t compare apples to apples. It compares suqb 50-100mg to IM 200mg. Its conclusion is that both methods bring T to normal range. Useless study for the most part to compare SUBQ vs IM using same dosage

Not correct. It's been previously demonstrated that AOC is proportional to dose with IM injections of testosterone esters. Check out Table 2 in the linked study. Areas under the curves for subQ are also in direct proportion to dose, and furthermore, the IM dose follows that exact proportionality.

 

[Cataceous]

... But basically depending on the drug absorption is not 100%. Google “subcutaneous injection lymphatic system”

The lymphatic system dumps out into the blood, which counts as absorption.

... Eventually, the lymph vessels empty into the lymphatic ducts, which drain into one of the two subclavian veins, near their junction with the internal jugular veins.

 

[HealthMan]

Not correct. It's been previously demonstrated that AOC is proportional to dose with IM injections of testosterone esters. Check out Table 2 in the linked study. Areas under the curves for subQ are also in direct proportion to dose, and furthermore, the IM dose follows that exact proportionality.

Table 2 compare ratios this is flawed. It needs to compare exact dosage. The relationship is not linear and this comparison implies that.

 

[HealthMan]

The lymphatic system dumps out into the blood, which counts as absorption.

Just look at a few studies available online. There is more to this than simply lymphatic systems dumps into the blood. There is a lot of interest for cancer drugs. Instead of intravenous subq. Absorption sometimes is not the same. Something happens along the way

 

[HealthMan]

Subcutaneous Absorption of Biotherapeutics: Knowns and Unknowns

“Subcutaneous absorption of biotherapeutics is relatively slow and mostly incomplete. Knowledge of the subcutaneous tissue is important to understand the absorption kinetics after subcutaneous administration. Transport in the subcutis to the absorbing blood or lymph capillaries appears to be a major contributor to the slow subcutaneous absorption. Larger proteins (>20 kDa) are mostly absorbed via the lymphatic system, although potential species differences are not fully understood yet. Also, the presystemic catabolism leading to incomplete bioavailability is little understood, both the involved enzymes and its translation across species”

 

[HealthMan]

Again I am not saying there is a definitive answers. But there is more to this than meet the eyes specially when you take into consideration anedoctal evidence

 

[Cataceous]

Table 2 compare ratios this is flawed. It needs to compare exact dosage. The relationship is not linear and this comparison implies that.

It is very linear, and many studies support this for IM. I guess you need a graph. SubQ is at 50 and 100 mg, IM is at 200, Fit is a straight line from the origin:

 

[HealthMan]

It is very linear, and many studies support this for IM. I guess you need a graph. SubQ is at 50 and 100 mg, IM is at 200, Fit is a straight line from the origin:
View attachment 7083

This study had a sample of 3 for IM. Not statistically relevant at all. Plus ask most of the users here. When they double or halved their dosages if their TT doubled and halved as well. It is not linear.

 

[Cataceous]

Again I am not saying there is a definitive answers. But there is more to this than meet the eyes specially when you take into consideration anedoctal evidence

Ok: You have no evidence that testosterone enters the lymphatic system in any quantity. You have no evidence that if it did the testosterone would somehow be broken down before reaching the blood. And there's a clinical study demonstrating a beautiful linear dose-response relationship.

 

[HealthMan]

Ok: You have no evidence that testosterone enters the lymphatic system in any quantity. You have no evidence that if it did the testosterone would somehow be broken down before reaching the blood. And there's a clinical study demonstrating a beautiful linear dose-response relationship.

A study of N=3 is not a study. All i am saying is that is evidence that subq absorption of drugs might not be 100% i posted one study there are more. Again very poorly understood topic. And regarding linearity of testosterone dosage and testosterone levels anedoctaly (and there are much more than 3 anedoctal cases out there) this relationship is far from linear.