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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Testosterone Basics & Questions
What is TRT and What is NOT TRT
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<blockquote data-quote="tareload" data-source="post: 190759"><p>Thank you for the feedback. I've really been thinking about your second part. I realize I just skimmed the surface with TT (as intro material) when state of the art is free T/bio-T (free hormone hypothesis) and it's effect. Do the high SHBG dudes really need more exogenous T than low SHBG guys to hit the same free T level (say 15 ng/dL)? That's what confuses me with this study which I keep coming back to.</p><p></p><p><a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16912120/" target="_blank">Differences in the apparent metabolic clearance rate of testosterone in young and older men with gonadotropin suppression receiving graded doses of testosterone</a></p><p></p><p></p><p>Look at the total T and free T by dosage group:</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]11621[/ATTACH]</p><p>[ATTACH=full]11622[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]11623[/ATTACH]</p><p>Going back and looking at the way free T was measured:</p><p>[ATTACH=full]11624[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>Sure will be nice to repeat a study like this once the TT/free T methods are harmonized [USER=13851]@madman[/USER].</p><p></p><p>I tried to spot check some of the TT/free T/SHBG numbers with Vermeulen but they weren't making sense to me so I went back to the previous paper with the tabular data:</p><p></p><p><a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15562020/" target="_blank">Older men are as responsive as young men to the anabolic effects of graded doses of testosterone on the skeletal muscle</a></p><p>[ATTACH=full]11625[/ATTACH]</p><p>For the 600 mg/week group, TT = 3286 ng/dL, free T = 42.3 ng/dL, and SHBG = 38 nmol/L. Plugging the TT and SHBG into Vermeulen equation:</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]11626[/ATTACH]</p><p>Using Tru-T method would only make the gap much, much worse.</p><p></p><p>Regardless, in this work (with what looks like a reasonable free T assay but may have artifacts) the free T was much higher in the high SHBG dudes than the low SHBG dudes (for the same injected dose) for dosages greater than or equal to 300 mg/week of Test ester. At more reasonable TRT dosages, free T levels across SHBG groups were not statistically different. Looking at the argument [USER=38109]@Cataceous[/USER] has brought up that free T levels should be governed by law of mass action, the data is consistent with that (up to 125 mg/week dosage). For the 300 and 600 mg/week cases (denoted with ** to show significant difference between % free T change from baseline between young/lower SHBG and older/higher SHBG guys), the data is not consistent with law of mass action since free T for same dose is higher for high SHBG guys (see Fig 2B in first paper cited).</p><p></p><p>In conclusion, this is probably a wild goose chase but goes through my thinking about the issue around whether high SHBG guys need more exogeneous T (to hit a target free T) than a low SHBG guys. Bring on the harmonized free T assays [USER=38594]@sammmy[/USER] !</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tareload, post: 190759"] Thank you for the feedback. I've really been thinking about your second part. I realize I just skimmed the surface with TT (as intro material) when state of the art is free T/bio-T (free hormone hypothesis) and it's effect. Do the high SHBG dudes really need more exogenous T than low SHBG guys to hit the same free T level (say 15 ng/dL)? That's what confuses me with this study which I keep coming back to. [URL='https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16912120/']Differences in the apparent metabolic clearance rate of testosterone in young and older men with gonadotropin suppression receiving graded doses of testosterone[/URL] Look at the total T and free T by dosage group: [ATTACH type="full" alt="1605194616287.png"]11621[/ATTACH] [ATTACH type="full" alt="1605194634394.png"]11622[/ATTACH] [ATTACH type="full" alt="1605194694120.png"]11623[/ATTACH] Going back and looking at the way free T was measured: [ATTACH type="full" alt="1605194883010.png"]11624[/ATTACH] Sure will be nice to repeat a study like this once the TT/free T methods are harmonized [USER=13851]@madman[/USER]. I tried to spot check some of the TT/free T/SHBG numbers with Vermeulen but they weren't making sense to me so I went back to the previous paper with the tabular data: [URL='https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15562020/']Older men are as responsive as young men to the anabolic effects of graded doses of testosterone on the skeletal muscle[/URL] [ATTACH type="full" alt="1605195091953.png"]11625[/ATTACH] For the 600 mg/week group, TT = 3286 ng/dL, free T = 42.3 ng/dL, and SHBG = 38 nmol/L. Plugging the TT and SHBG into Vermeulen equation: [ATTACH type="full" alt="1605195336493.png"]11626[/ATTACH] Using Tru-T method would only make the gap much, much worse. Regardless, in this work (with what looks like a reasonable free T assay but may have artifacts) the free T was much higher in the high SHBG dudes than the low SHBG dudes (for the same injected dose) for dosages greater than or equal to 300 mg/week of Test ester. At more reasonable TRT dosages, free T levels across SHBG groups were not statistically different. Looking at the argument [USER=38109]@Cataceous[/USER] has brought up that free T levels should be governed by law of mass action, the data is consistent with that (up to 125 mg/week dosage). For the 300 and 600 mg/week cases (denoted with ** to show significant difference between % free T change from baseline between young/lower SHBG and older/higher SHBG guys), the data is not consistent with law of mass action since free T for same dose is higher for high SHBG guys (see Fig 2B in first paper cited). In conclusion, this is probably a wild goose chase but goes through my thinking about the issue around whether high SHBG guys need more exogeneous T (to hit a target free T) than a low SHBG guys. Bring on the harmonized free T assays [USER=38594]@sammmy[/USER] ! [/QUOTE]
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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Testosterone Basics & Questions
What is TRT and What is NOT TRT
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