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Clinical Use of Anabolics and Hormones
Clinical Use of Anabolics and Hormones
3 Reasons for "Deca D*ck"
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<blockquote data-quote="DS3" data-source="post: 175854" data-attributes="member: 18514"><p>What is interesting is how hypotheses (don't get me wrong, I love a good/informed hypothesis) continue to circle around regarding potential effects of nandrolone of E2 (either it's too low even while using T concomitantly, or it's too high-not on blood assay but existing E2 is amplified in potency at the receptor, blah blah blah) and those hypotheses being actively used to change individual's approaches to cycles.</p><p></p><p>The reason that is interesting and at the same time somewhat comical to me is that we continue to discuss HRT and potential side effects in a linear fashion (i.e. when I took X it caused Y, so X must be the source of the issue). We tend to forget that the body is composed of highly interdependent systems and organs within those systems, and that linear/reductionistic explanations rarely demonstrate the true etiology.</p><p></p><p>Take all the theories thrown around here: (1) Deca causes ED because of low E2 (2) Deca causes ED because of enhanced potency of existing E2 at the receptor (3) DHT is needed for nitric-oxide mediation erectile function (actually research-based) (4) Deca causes ED because of the antagonistic relationship that progesterone has on estrogen (5) etc.</p><p></p><p>Each of these hypotheses could have some degree of merit, but none of them anecdotally fully explain the occuranec of ED while taking T & N concomitantly.</p><p></p><p>Take this study for example: <a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7108994/" target="_blank">Nandrolone decanoate relieves joint pain in hypogonadal men: a novel prospective pilot study and review of the literature</a></p><p></p><p>Dr. Lipshultz posted a novel study using nandrolone with his patients at the Baylor College of Medicine wherein 48 men (who were currently taking TRT) were all placed on 200 mg of T and 100 mg of nandrolone. The study can be found below. What's interesting is that none of the study's participants noted adverse effects such as ED, so the hypothesis that any T added to N will cause ED is out the window.</p><p></p><p>However, the study does state that in some men nandrolone is reported to cause ED (not in the participant group), and hypotheses are offered.</p><p></p><p>I will tell you as a patient of Dr. Lipshultz, he has confirmed that some men he places on Deca for joint pain do complain of ED, while others have no issue. He has not found any correlation between E2, progesterone, TT, Free T, DHT v DHN, etc. that would explain the occurrence of ED that could be generalizable. </p><p></p><p>Link: <a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7108994/" target="_blank">Nandrolone decanoate relieves joint pain in hypogonadal men: a novel prospective pilot study and review of the literature</a></p><p></p><p>Then, anecdotally, you have some bodybuilders who take 300 test and 200 of deca weekly, and report no issues. Then you have a guy like me who takes 200 mg T and 100 Deca weekly and I experience profound ED and depression. You have bodybuilders who take 500 of Deca only and report they feel like crap. Then you have bodybuilders who take the same dosage of Deca only (or similar) and they report that it's the holy grail.</p><p></p><p>Taking all of this into consideration, the most likely explanation, given the available research and anecdotes, is that the occurrence of ED during T & N administration is likely to be caused from individual differences in genetics and subsequently the varying responses to medications that those individual differences bring. Anything further explanation, at this point, is mere speculation with no data (clinical or empirical) to establish true confidence.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DS3, post: 175854, member: 18514"] What is interesting is how hypotheses (don't get me wrong, I love a good/informed hypothesis) continue to circle around regarding potential effects of nandrolone of E2 (either it's too low even while using T concomitantly, or it's too high-not on blood assay but existing E2 is amplified in potency at the receptor, blah blah blah) and those hypotheses being actively used to change individual's approaches to cycles. The reason that is interesting and at the same time somewhat comical to me is that we continue to discuss HRT and potential side effects in a linear fashion (i.e. when I took X it caused Y, so X must be the source of the issue). We tend to forget that the body is composed of highly interdependent systems and organs within those systems, and that linear/reductionistic explanations rarely demonstrate the true etiology. Take all the theories thrown around here: (1) Deca causes ED because of low E2 (2) Deca causes ED because of enhanced potency of existing E2 at the receptor (3) DHT is needed for nitric-oxide mediation erectile function (actually research-based) (4) Deca causes ED because of the antagonistic relationship that progesterone has on estrogen (5) etc. Each of these hypotheses could have some degree of merit, but none of them anecdotally fully explain the occuranec of ED while taking T & N concomitantly. Take this study for example: [URL='https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7108994/']Nandrolone decanoate relieves joint pain in hypogonadal men: a novel prospective pilot study and review of the literature[/URL] Dr. Lipshultz posted a novel study using nandrolone with his patients at the Baylor College of Medicine wherein 48 men (who were currently taking TRT) were all placed on 200 mg of T and 100 mg of nandrolone. The study can be found below. What's interesting is that none of the study's participants noted adverse effects such as ED, so the hypothesis that any T added to N will cause ED is out the window. However, the study does state that in some men nandrolone is reported to cause ED (not in the participant group), and hypotheses are offered. I will tell you as a patient of Dr. Lipshultz, he has confirmed that some men he places on Deca for joint pain do complain of ED, while others have no issue. He has not found any correlation between E2, progesterone, TT, Free T, DHT v DHN, etc. that would explain the occurrence of ED that could be generalizable. Link: [URL='https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7108994/']Nandrolone decanoate relieves joint pain in hypogonadal men: a novel prospective pilot study and review of the literature[/URL] Then, anecdotally, you have some bodybuilders who take 300 test and 200 of deca weekly, and report no issues. Then you have a guy like me who takes 200 mg T and 100 Deca weekly and I experience profound ED and depression. You have bodybuilders who take 500 of Deca only and report they feel like crap. Then you have bodybuilders who take the same dosage of Deca only (or similar) and they report that it's the holy grail. Taking all of this into consideration, the most likely explanation, given the available research and anecdotes, is that the occurrence of ED during T & N administration is likely to be caused from individual differences in genetics and subsequently the varying responses to medications that those individual differences bring. Anything further explanation, at this point, is mere speculation with no data (clinical or empirical) to establish true confidence. [/QUOTE]
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Clinical Use of Anabolics and Hormones
Clinical Use of Anabolics and Hormones
3 Reasons for "Deca D*ck"
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