1. #31
    Another informative site a patient alerted me to just a few weeks ago and (WOW) the community has collectively supplied a goldmine of information and recommendations:

    http://Rt3-adrenals.org
    Lead Physician & Medical Director
    www.defymedical.com

    NOTE: Comments on this forum are NOT medical advice and are no substitute for individualized patient care. Comments on this forum do not constitute or establish a physician-patient relationship. Please consult your personal physician prior to initiating or changing ANY treatment regimen.

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  3. #32
    Thanks Chris.
    No there were no compounds other than what I listed.

    Thyroid - I'm thinking I should incorporate the np thyroid back in and do labs in a few weeks to see if my ratio improves.
    If I remember correctly you said the same thing months ago on a previous lab, so if that was the case and my ratio is consistently lower than it should be, what is the course of action to make it ideal?

    I'm not clear on your comment of the high rt3, but it sounds like you think it may be a one time anomaly due to something else going on?

    Ok, so I've already gone back to my trt dose and switched to a different AI. Time to restart as you say.

    One more question though concerning next labwork....
    If I go in 2 weeks that will tell me if I'm heading in the right direction with the AI to see if E2 is coming down and also with Thyroid numbers. Should I wait 5 weeks or so to let my free and total T come down before next labs? I feel I may be wasting those extra few weeks though by not checking E2 and thyroid soon.....

    Thanks again for all the insight everyone.
    Chris that forum you linked to looks great. Going to check it out tomorrow.

  4. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Justin Saya, MD View Post
    Another informative site a patient alerted me to just a few weeks ago and (WOW) the community has collectively supplied a goldmine of information and recommendations:

    http://Rt3-adrenals.org
    Thank you Dr. Saya, will be checking that out also.

  5. #34
    test reading low range high range range above low range % above bottom range 50% level 66% level 75% level laymans comments
    ft4 1.17 0.82 1.77 0.95 0.35 37% 1.295 1.447 1.5325 low normal. Best mid level (50%) to upper 75% (or higher) - some references say upper 1/3)
    ft3 3 2 4.4 2.4 1 42% 3.2 3.584 3.8 low normal. Best mid level (50%) to upper 75% (or higher) - some references say upper 1/3)

  6. #35
    A LOT of moving parts.
    "Currently - 220 mg test cyp weekly / 900 iu hcg weekly both of those are total numbers but they are split up to 3x a week. Test cream 3 clicks daily."
    Are you taking BOTH "T" injections AND "T" cream????
    If so, what is the strength of the "T" cream?

  7. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Orrin Israel View Post
    A LOT of moving parts.
    "Currently - 220 mg test cyp weekly / 900 iu hcg weekly both of those are total numbers but they are split up to 3x a week. Test cream 3 clicks daily."
    Are you taking BOTH "T" injections AND "T" cream????
    If so, what is the strength of the "T" cream?
    Yes both. It was to increase dht which it did. Before I did the short blast my total T was always fine at around 1000.
    I dont have in front of me but it think it was 50mg/ml.

  8. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Orrin Israel View Post
    test reading low range high range range above low range % above bottom range 50% level 66% level 75% level laymans comments
    ft4 1.17 0.82 1.77 0.95 0.35 37% 1.295 1.447 1.5325 low normal. Best mid level (50%) to upper 75% (or higher) - some references say upper 1/3)
    ft3 3 2 4.4 2.4 1 42% 3.2 3.584 3.8 low normal. Best mid level (50%) to upper 75% (or higher) - some references say upper 1/3)
    Thanks. where can find this calculator?
    The magic question is how do I get from 'low normal' into to the top normal? Increase dosages? Something else?

  9. #38
    If you intend to adjust everything this would be my opinion.

    Your high RT3 is possibly because of lowish ferritin so i would sup small doses of iron like 25mg daily with 1000mg vit C, hopefully this may reduce your RT3. You have to wait 6 weeks and get labs to see the result

    To increase T3 yeah perhaps take 1-2 grain of NDT daily in the morning

    Your copper is lowish and that can cause issues so perhaps supp some copper/zinc

    Your pregnenolone is low so I would supp 25mg daily. Dr. Crisler suggests 25mg morning and night.

    Your DHT is too high so I would reduce your cream to one squirt daily

    Keep on this regime for 6 weeks and get new labs to see where you have to go. The problem with doing so many changes at once is that any one of these changes could make a big difference and in 6 week you could still be way off on your labs.

  10. #39
    Thanks.
    What's your opinion with the hcg? I stopped taking it a week ago to see if I can lower my E2 as quickly as possible.
    I'll reintroduce at some point.

  11. #40
    If it hasn't caused you any problems I'd probably stick with it as it is considered the standard protocol these days by all the best physicians. What was your TestC dosage before you lowered it and what is it now?

  12. #41
    My test c trt dose was 220mg per week which I went to 500mg a week and then had those labs I posted done.
    I'm now back to trt dose.

  13. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by rhino5169 View Post
    Yes both. It was to increase dht which it did. Before I did the short blast my total T was always fine at around 1000.
    I dont have in front of me but it think it was 50mg/ml.
    You did this based on medical recommendations??

    "My test c trt dose was 220mg per week which I went to 500mg a week and then had those labs I posted done.
    I'm now back to trt dose."

    You did this based on medical recommendations??

  14. #43
    Were you on the same amount of HCG when u were taking 220mg/wk? and the the same 3 shots of cream during this same period? We need to understand all you were taking when your level was around 1000.

  15. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by ratbag View Post
    Were you on the same amount of HCG when u were taking 220mg/wk? and the the same 3 shots of cream during this same period? We need to understand all you were taking when your level was around 1000.
    Everything else was the same as it always had been. All,I did was increase the test dose.



    No. Medical recommendations were small changes that were getting me nowhere. After Over A Year Of That I Decided To See if increasing the dose Had Any effect. Btw, 500 mg is not a lot. It's halfway between a trt dose and a bodybuilders dose.

  16. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by rhino5169 View Post
    Everything else was the same as it always had been. All,I did was increase the test dose.

    No. Medical recommendations were small changes that were getting me nowhere. After Over A Year Of That I Decided To See if increasing the dose Had Any effect. Btw, 500 mg is not a lot. It's halfway between a trt dose and a bodybuilders dose.
    That is like falling off a cliff...."Don't worry I am only 1/2 down and feel great."
    Your posted labs are not valid.
    You need to decide if you will use injections or cream and stick to that protocol.
    I use TD cream and do quite well. Others do well on injections.
    Stay at a reasonable dose for 2 or 3 weeks and re-test.
    Test at the correct time. I test BFORE I apply my TD cream to get a trough reading.
    Not sure on injections, but others can advise for that.
    THEN you can see where everything is and THEN work on ONE item at a time.
    Might be high E2 or T levels or?
    THEN move on to the next item.
    Might be thyroid?
    ONLY tweak your thyroid meds and NOTHING else and see where it goes.
    See if you can find a DR what will work with you.
    You CAN NOT TWEAK EVERY THING ALL AT ONCE and expect to resolve all your problems.
    TOO MANY MOVING PARTS.
    FIX ONE MOVING PART AT A TIME.
    You have to slow down and take the time that is needed to do it right or you will ALWAYS be screwed up and feeling like crap, or worse!
    SMALL changes work over time.
    MASSIVE changes do not work.
    Do your research on each moving part.
    I know you are frustrated but if you try to slow down the folks here can help guide you better.

  17. #46
    500mg is a lot when your body is converting all those steroids to E2 and raising it substantially. It always amazed me how body builders can take 2000mg and not have any E2 issues... well that's not totally true a lot of them have to take insulin injections to keep bloodsugar low. Did you have high E2 when you were at a 1000?

  18. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Orrin Israel View Post
    That is like falling off a cliff...."Don't worry I am only 1/2 down and feel great."
    Your posted labs are not valid.
    You need to decide if you will use injections or cream and stick to that protocol.
    I use TD cream and do quite well. Others do well on injections.
    Stay at a reasonable dose for 2 or 3 weeks and re-test.
    Test at the correct time. I test BFORE I apply my TD cream to get a trough reading.
    Not sure on injections, but others can advise for that.
    THEN you can see where everything is and THEN work on ONE item at a time.
    Might be high E2 or T levels or?
    THEN move on to the next item.
    Might be thyroid?
    ONLY tweak your thyroid meds and NOTHING else and see where it goes.
    See if you can find a DR what will work with you.
    You CAN NOT TWEAK EVERY THING ALL AT ONCE and expect to resolve all your problems.
    TOO MANY MOVING PARTS.
    FIX ONE MOVING PART AT A TIME.
    You have to slow down and take the time that is needed to do it right or you will ALWAYS be screwed up and feeling like crap, or worse!
    SMALL changes work over time.
    MASSIVE changes do not work.
    Do your research on each moving part.
    I know you are frustrated but if you try to slow down the folks here can help guide you better.
    Thanks for the feedback Orrin, but im not sure you're following or maybe im confusing things. Here goes:

    My protocol HAS BEEN injections plus cream for 9 months.
    I tested monday morning BEFORE I took anything. No injection no cream no thyroid.....nothing except water as I always do.
    I did not tweak everything at once. Ive been tweaking (along with my doctors) for a year or more. The ONLY thing I tweaked on my own was to increase the test temporarily after no other tweaking helped.
    All my other labs except for the last one I posted have basically normal numbers yet I still was not doing well.
    You say small changes over time work, but for me it was a year and no, they did not work.
    My doctors do work with me I have no issue there, just trying to make things work.

    Thanks

  19. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by ratbag View Post
    500mg is a lot when your body is converting all those steroids to E2 and raising it substantially. It always amazed me how body builders can take 2000mg and not have any E2 issues... well that's not totally true a lot of them have to take insulin injections to keep bloodsugar low. Did you have high E2 when you were at a 1000?
    Yes my E2 kept going up and when it hit into the mid 60's I was put on anastrozole. It came down very low somewhere between 8 - 16 I think. Ill look it up if its relevant. I then laid off it a couple weeks and went back on smaller dose but it still rose to 103 and thats when I was switched to exemestane but I was also at 500mg test with that.

    Ive gone back to trt test dose for 2 weeks now and hopefully the E2 is coming down.

  20. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by rhino5169 View Post
    Thanks for the feedback Orrin, but im not sure you're following or maybe im confusing things. Here goes:

    My protocol HAS BEEN injections plus cream for 9 months.
    I tested monday morning BEFORE I took anything. No injection no cream no thyroid.....nothing except water as I always do.
    I did not tweak everything at once. Ive been tweaking (along with my doctors) for a year or more. The ONLY thing I tweaked on my own was to increase the test temporarily after no other tweaking helped.
    All my other labs except for the last one I posted have basically normal numbers yet I still was not doing well.
    You say small changes over time work, but for me it was a year and no, they did not work.
    My doctors do work with me I have no issue there, just trying to make things work.

    Thanks
    Interesting protocol "injections plus cream".
    If you are having significant issues, like you appear to be having, you might think about taking it up a notch and seeing a endo specialist at a teaching University.

    Not saying your DR does not know what he is doing, but sometimes folks end up with really bizarre issues that most DRs may not understand. I know one friend who was having issues, and had seen every local DR there was, and no one could figure it out, but a trip to UAB to see one of the DRs there (specialist), and the DR found the problem. One of those very, very rare issues that does not pop up very often. Once the problem was identified a solution was identified. Have not seen my friend for a while, but surgery was in the future to resolve a long standing issue that none of the local DRs found.
    Just a thought..

  21. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Orrin Israel View Post
    Interesting protocol "injections plus cream".
    That’s actually a creative regimen that is sometimes used by knowledgeable providers to enhance DHT conversion, libido, erectile function, and various other androgenic features. Always works to raise DHT (can raise E2 as well) and commonly (but not always) helps libido, etc.
    Lead Physician & Medical Director
    www.defymedical.com

    NOTE: Comments on this forum are NOT medical advice and are no substitute for individualized patient care. Comments on this forum do not constitute or establish a physician-patient relationship. Please consult your personal physician prior to initiating or changing ANY treatment regimen.

  22. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Justin Saya, MD View Post
    That’s actually a creative regimen that is sometimes used by knowledgeable providers to enhance DHT conversion, libido, erectile function, and various other androgenic features. Always works to raise DHT (can raise E2 as well) and commonly (but not always) helps libido, etc.
    Very interesting. I was thinking about it and the daily cream would set a base level of T dependent on the dose, and the injections would kick off from the daily level of T. So the DHT raise comes from the cream. Thanks for the explanation. We learn something every day here

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