1. #1

    New Here - Lyme Disease/Low T

    55 year old male, struggling with symptoms from long term lyme disease. Brain fog, muscle fatigue, body aches, exercise intolerance for several years now. Summer had blood test for T levels. Came back total T=176. Doc sent me to urologist, he put me on gel, 2 months later total T=325 (no change in symptoms). Then self injection .5ml CYP weekly 200mg/ml. 2 months later total T=385 (no change in symptoms). Now dose change to 2ml CYP weekly 1000mg/10ml. Its been 2 weeks and no change in symptoms. Libido no different than starting (pretty low).



    I am getting very frustrated now. I understand that my lyme symptoms may not all be from low T levels but surely there has to be some correlation. Do I just need to be patient? I would have expected to experience something with the higher dosing.

  2. # ADS
    Purchase From Our Affiliates
    Join Date
    Always
    Posts
    51
    Help Excelmale

    Defy
     

  3. #2
    I am new here also, welcome. You will be asked for you lab work. If you post it you will get alot more responses.

  4. #3
    Doses are always expressed in milligrams, since an expression in ml is a volume. That said, you are taking 400mg of testosterone per week - 2ml with 200mg/ml? Am I right? That's not testosterone replacement therapy, that's an anabolic cycling dose. You have almost certainly sent your estradiol through the roof, may be flirting with hematocrit and hemoglobin problems...it makes no sense.

    What are your other lab results? Your free testosterone...your SHBG, estradiol/sensitive (LC, MS/MS)? Was your thyroid evaluated before therapy started?

    Your post suggests a lot of reckless changes, please help us understand where things stood before therapy began and what you're now doing.
    I am not a physician. Comments offered here are for discussion purposes only. Please consult your doctor before initiating, changing, or stopping any therapy.

  5. #4
    What is your current treatment for Lyme and what state do you live in.

  6. #5
    Welcome to EM,

    Lots of guys expect immediate results and don't understand why symptom relief doesn't happen once a guy gets his testosterone levels to a healthy level, you must understand that for you to start feeling good again tissues must be repair in order for you to start feeling normal again. Libido and erections will not happen until you start getting restful deep stage 4 REM sleep.

    SHBG labs are essential for evaluating how often you should be injecting per week, if SHBG is low once weekly injections will not work as I have learned myself. Lots of guys that end up here often don't have the proper labs run before one begins TRT and this almost always sets you up for failure, please share your labs and I'm certain we will find something your doctor missed. Guys who get knowledgeable hormone specialists usually never grace these forums, only guys who get inexperienced doctors end up here.


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3188848/

    Effects on sexual interest appear after 3 weeks plateauing at 6 weeks, with no further increments expected beyond. Changes in erections/ejaculations may require up to 6 months. Effects on quality of life manifest within 3–4 weeks, but maximum benefits take longer. Effects on depressive mood become detectable after 3–6 weeks with a maximum after 18–30 weeks. Effects on erythropoiesis are evident at 3 months, peaking at 9–12 months. Prostate-specific antigen and volume rise, marginally, plateauing at 12 months; further increase should be related to aging rather than therapy. Effects on lipids appear after 4 weeks, maximal after 6–12 months. Insulin sensitivity may improve within few days, but effects on glycemic control become evident only after 3–12 months. Changes in fat mass, lean body mass, and muscle strength occur within 12–16 weeks, stabilize at 6–12 months, but can marginally continue over years. Effects on inflammation occur within 3–12 weeks. Effects on bone are detectable already after 6 months while continuing at least for 3 years.

  7. #6
    I am so thankful I found this site! You guys are awesome thanks for taking the time to help people out. If my multi qoute doesnt work:

    You THREE POSTERS: Coaster, Israel, and Lord

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Systemlord View Post
    Welcome to EM,

    Lots of guys expect immediate results and don't understand why symptom relief doesn't happen once a guy gets his testosterone levels to a healthy level, you must understand that for you to start feeling good again tissues must be repair in order for you to start feeling normal again. Libido and erections will not happen until you start getting restful deep stage 4 REM sleep.

    SHBG labs are essential for evaluating how often you should be injecting per week, if SHBG is low once weekly injections will not work as I have learned myself. Lots of guys that end up here often don't have the proper labs run before one begins TRT and this almost always sets you up for failure, please share your labs and I'm certain we will find something your doctor missed. Guys who get knowledgeable hormone specialists usually never grace these forums, only guys who get inexperienced doctors end up here.


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3188848/
    I can't emphasize how important the points Systemlord raises are. He's absolutely right about the need for nuance and patience in the world of androgen replacement, and how the restoration of normal testosterone levels - in and of itself - is one piece of a much larger health mosaic.

    The study he quotes is of interest, but one should not rely on its conclusions uncritically. There is every reason to believe that estradiol levels, to the extent they were monitored, were evaluated with the standard lab test: a totally unreliable vehicle for measuring estradiol in men. The uncompromising statements the authors make about the restoration of libido and ED have been shown to be far too pessimistic. For example, one should not lose hope if sexual interest hasn't improve in six weeks, as this study flatly claims. We now know that the road to TRT success is measured in longer timelines.

    Which brings us back to larger point. Be patient.
    I am not a physician. Comments offered here are for discussion purposes only. Please consult your doctor before initiating, changing, or stopping any therapy.

  9. #8
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    10
    Thanks for your reply and patience with me. My dose was adjusted 2 weeks ago from 100mg/week to 200mg/week.

    Blood work ordered by my primary, done in Aug. 2017, results total T=176, Free=36.4. He sent me to a urologist and he ordered blood work also done in Aug. 2017. Prolactin, serum 13.3, LHS 3.28, FSH=3.28, cortisol=18.45.

    Now 6 months later total T=389 Free=67.6. Just got result for Enhanced Estradiol=56.7. I need to check this week with Dr. to see if he is going to add an estrogen blocker.

    Thyroid has always been in the normal range at 1.69. I should say that my doc has been a bit concerned with my PSA as it jumped from 2.5 to 3.5 in one year (before any trt) and my latest number after starting trt is 4.0.

  10. #9
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    10
    I live in NH. Work outside been exposed to lots of tics. On my second Dr. now, took me a year to get an appointment. Been 2 years of treatment with little improvement. Did lots of heavy duty combos of antibiotic treatment. Tried tons of holistics.
    I think the lyme has messed with my hormone levels, I was so sure that my low T was a big part of my symptoms, but so far after 6 months, no improvement. Need to decide how far to chase trt treatment before considering going back on antibiotics or some other treatment.

  11. #10
    Did your doctor discuss smaller, multiple injections per week? Unless your SHBG is extremely high you are likely to experience success with a protocol calling for less testosterone, more often, as opposed to single, whopping doses. You chances of managing estradiol spikes without an AI are far greater on such a protocol. Where does your SHBG sit? That's key to designing a protocol.

    PSA of 4.0 is a red light for a patient on TRT...it needs to be thoroughly evaluated.

    Thyroid issues are not resolved with the TSH values alone. It would be valuable to know where your ft3, ft4, rt3 and both antibody sit.

    What is your sleep like? Any chance you are dealing with apnea? There are dramatic numbers of men with undiagnosed apnea - which hammers your hormones.

    Finally, your not well served by the approach your doctor has chosen. That's not unusual; most of us had to work to find capable medical care.
    I am not a physician. Comments offered here are for discussion purposes only. Please consult your doctor before initiating, changing, or stopping any therapy.

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by PeteMax View Post
    I live in NH. Work outside been exposed to lots of tics. On my second Dr. now, took me a year to get an appointment. Been 2 years of treatment with little improvement. Did lots of heavy duty combos of antibiotic treatment. Tried tons of holistics.
    I think the lyme has messed with my hormone levels, I was so sure that my low T was a big part of my symptoms, but so far after 6 months, no improvement. Need to decide how far to chase trt treatment before considering going back on antibiotics or some other treatment.
    Holistic does not work.
    I have a Daughter that is just now feeling better. I need to do an update on the 2 post to bring it current.
    She was on antibiotics for a year.
    Found a DR in Mobile that understands Lyme and he was the one that took care of her after she spent $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ on quacks in the Atlanta area (to include Holistic Quacks).
    PM me if you would like the contact info for the DR. He only works 1/2 time as he is 1/2 retired
    So you did not state but you were / are positive on the western blot?
    https://www.excelmale.com/showthread...2110#post82110
    https://www.excelmale.com/showthread...4722#post34722

  13. #12
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    10
    My doctor did not discuss multiple injections per week, he initially wanted me to inject every 2 weeks, but as I learned here, that is not best. I guess I am not clear on SHBG, is that one test? My doctor did not order that one. I don't sleep well because most nights I have body aches, and my arms tingle. I wake up many times during the night. Feel like I got hit by a truck most mornings. Have quite a bit of muscle fatigue during the day. Sometimes my biceps feel like I have been constantly lifting weights, then lots of fatigue. Along with brain fog, I have learned that these are common lyme symptoms. Seem to be too severe for just low T?

  14. #13
    You have two, complex medical conditions requiring attention - hypogonadism and Lyme. You aren't receiving proper care, you had an inadequate workup for your testosterone issues, SHBG is an essential test. It is a key factor in designing your protocol: your injection schedule and the amount of testosterone per injection is dependent on where SHBG sits. As was noted before, you are on a dose in excess of what almost all TRT patients inject. If your SHBG is low(er) it is working against you.

    Orrin Israel has posted many times on Lyme issues. You'd do well to engage with him.
    I am not a physician. Comments offered here are for discussion purposes only. Please consult your doctor before initiating, changing, or stopping any therapy.

  15. #14
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    10
    ok, thanks for that advice. Would you suggest that I should be seeing an endocrinologist and not a urologist?

  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by PeteMax View Post
    ok, thanks for that advice. Would you suggest that I should be seeing an endocrinologist and not a urologist?
    There as many, perhaps more, incompetent endocrinologists as there are ill-informed urologists. The sad truth? There are very few doctors who know how to play this game. Very little time is devoted to male androgen issues in medical school/residency. It doesn't matter the specialty designation, emdocrinologist, urologist, internist, family-practice, only some of them will be able to help you (my doctor, here in Canada, is certified in family practice, as are Drs. Saya and Crisler, leading figures in this field).

    Are you in a position you can seek treatment outside your insurance network? If that is possible, we can refer you to national practitioners (who may not be as expensive as you fear).

    We we have to become our own advocates. Read all you can her on the Forum, particularly the "sticky posts." Ask questions.
    I am not a physician. Comments offered here are for discussion purposes only. Please consult your doctor before initiating, changing, or stopping any therapy.

  17. #16
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    10
    Kind of the same thing in the lyme world. Most doctors have no clue what to do with someone who is having lyme symptoms where a few days of doxy doesn't help. They refer you to all kinds of specialist who have no clue either. My current "lyme literate" dr. is one of the few around here that treats with heavy doses of antibiotics. He has a solid reputation and has treated many hundreds, maybe thousands of patients. I had to quit the antibiotics after 6 months because it seemed to cause a spike in my tinnitus (ear ringing).

    Anyway, before I make a final judgment to continue trt, I wanted my levels to be in the upper range of normal to see if there was any difference in symptoms.

    Everything on my insurance is subject to a $6700 deductible. So this has been an expensive journey so far.

  18. #17
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    5
    Hello,
    I've been down the Lyme disease route. I had an excellent Lyme Dr.
    900mg of antibiotics a day for 2 years with additional supplements.
    Cured!
    Ranger100

  19. #18
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    10
    Are you also being treated for low t? If so, would you say that was caused by the lyme or a separate issue? So far 6 months of TRT treatment has not helped me with my lyme symptoms if fact seems to be contributing to some ED issues that I didn't have before. I can't tolerate the antibiotics, makes my tinnitus worse

  20. #19
    Super Moderator Nelson Vergel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Houston, Texas, United States
    Posts
    8,062
    Hello PeteMax and Everyone

    Welcome to ExcelMale.com.

    You will find this thread very interesting:Chronic Lyme Disease – Another Negative Study


  21. #20
    I had/have Lyme. First positive test n 1998. I had intermittent fatigue,anxiety,and some pain but not to bad. My hormones seemed fine had a normal life until 2007 I crash dieted and over trained and that’s when my hormones took a shit. I’ve never fully recovered from that. But my biggest hurdle seemed to be low cortisol. Have you checked your am cortisol levels

    i was with one of the best trt drs around but I have a very uncommon reaction to being on trt. Anxiety goes through the roof. I haven’t suffered from anxiety since my early 20s (35 now) but for some reason despite perfect numbers across the board can’t get rid of the anxiety on trt. Trt did help with my pain levels but caused some of my old symptoms to come back like muscle twitching and tinnitus. So I’m currently on a clomid restart. I went cold turkey first for about a month and I stared crashing hopefully clomid picks me up and I can get back to my natural low normal levels. I was doing fine before trt just wanted to get to the next level. But doesn’t seem like it’s the answer for me personally

  22. #21
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    285
    Quote Originally Posted by PeteMax View Post
    My doctor did not discuss multiple injections per week, he initially wanted me to inject every 2 weeks, but as I learned here, that is not best. I guess I am not clear on SHBG, is that one test? My doctor did not order that one. I don't sleep well because most nights I have body aches, and my arms tingle. I wake up many times during the night. Feel like I got hit by a truck most mornings. Have quite a bit of muscle fatigue during the day. Sometimes my biceps feel like I have been constantly lifting weights, then lots of fatigue. Along with brain fog, I have learned that these are common lyme symptoms. Seem to be too severe for just low T?
    Petemax I would definitely follow Coastwatchers advice and get a full thyroid panel done. As he noted, TSH means little to knowledgeable thyroid doctor's and many do not include it in their testing. Lyme's disease is a cause if high reverse T3. See this link https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/reverse-t3/.

    I know because my Reverse T3 was 28.1 after having flu/sinus infection in January. My symptoms were IDENTICAL to yours. I'm now on T3 med to get it back in line. Have a feeling it has been elevated for some time and the infection really caused a spike. Optimal RT3 should be less than 15.

    The symptoms of low testosterone and Hypothyroidism are very much identical. Here is good explanation by Dr. Westin Childs https://www.restartmed.com/thyroid-symptoms-men/
    Last edited by 1Draw; 03-31-2018 at 01:12 PM.

  23. #22
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by 1Draw View Post
    Petemax I would definitely follow Coastwatchers advice and get a full thyroid panel done. As he noted, TSH means little to knowledgeable thyroid doctor's and many do not include it in their testing. Lyme's disease is a cause if high reverse T3. See this link https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/reverse-t3/.

    I know because my Reverse T3 was 28.1 after having flu/sinus infection in January. My symptoms were IDENTICAL to yours. I'm now on T3 med to get it back in line. Have a feeling it has been elevated for some time and the infection really caused a spike. Optimal RT3 should be less than 15.

    The symptoms of low testosterone and Hypothyroidism are very much identical. Here is good explanation by Dr. Westin Childs https://www.restartmed.com/thyroid-symptoms-men/
    Very interesting links, my thyroid test always comes back normal, so my doctor has never ordered a full thyroid panel. How do I find a doctor that understands all of this? My primary has no clue, my urologist is just looking at my T levels, my lyme dr just wants to give me antibiotics, holistic drs just want me to take supplements. Very frustrating! Can anyone recommend a doctor in the northeast? I live in southern NH. I would be willing to go out of my insurance network.

  24. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Charliebizz View Post
    I had/have Lyme. First positive test n 1998. I had intermittent fatigue,anxiety,and some pain but not to bad. My hormones seemed fine had a normal life until 2007 I crash dieted and over trained and that’s when my hormones took a shit. I’ve never fully recovered from that. But my biggest hurdle seemed to be low cortisol.
    What protocol / treatment were you on, or on for Lyme?

  25. #24
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    5
    Hello PeteMax,

    It's a hard question, one of those chicken and egg questions. In 2011 I had serious medical issues. Right around that time I noticed my "T" seemed to be falling off the charts, I was tested but in the old guy "normal" range...

    But I had around that time 3 tick bites. At the time I also was diagnosed with Celiac disease, Narcolepsy, Obstructive Sleep Apnea. Note: I was not diagnosed with Lyme until 2015 when I became very sick and went to a Lyme Specialist Dr.

    2 years of heavy antibiotics 200mg Doxy am, 500mg Azritimycyn noon , 200mg Doxy pm, plus B12 injections for the memory/mental cognitive issues...

    Got over the Lyme's and was then "diagnosed" with a serious cancer issue.... 8+ weeks of simultaneous radiation and chemotherapy. I'm clear by the grace and healing of God - thankfully! But that treatment knocked out the last of my remaining testosterone.

    Then noticed major fatigue, ED, weight/fat, vision problems (major Dry Eye problems), weakness and etc.

    I started 50mg/day of Androgel for 1 month (lab tests lower than when I started Androgel) I'm now75mg/day and will test again in a month.... but I think I'll need to be around 150mg/day to make a difference....

    I think Lyme's can weaken your system so you can come down with all kinds of illnesses. Lyme's is a very serious illness and nothing to fool around with...

    Why are you having problems with Antibiotics? I took them shortly after meals and supplemented with probiotices 4-5 hours later.

    I hope this helps,

    Sincerely,
    Ranger100


    PS: I would love to hear from anyone dealing with Dry Eye that was helped with "T" replacement therapy....or "T" cream for your eye lids as I've read about....

  26. #25
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    285
    Quote Originally Posted by PeteMax View Post
    Very interesting links, my thyroid test always comes back normal, so my doctor has never ordered a full thyroid panel. How do I find a doctor that understands all of this? My primary has no clue, my urologist is just looking at my T levels, my lyme dr just wants to give me antibiotics, holistic drs just want me to take supplements. Very frustrating! Can anyone recommend a doctor in the northeast? I live in southern NH. I would be willing to go out of my insurance network.
    Defy Medical in Tampa Fl is where many members here get their medical advice, meds, refills, etc. I have been with them since 2015 and very very satisfied after trying my PCP, Endocrinologist, another T treatment center with no positive results.

    You can look here: https://www.defymedical.com/ . Cost is higher at first due to blood test and original consult but ongoing my cost is about $1,000 a year so, its affordable and they know what they are doing when it comes to solving the hormone puzzle.

    I would schedule my first consult with either Dr. Saya or Dr. Calkins due to your complex issues. You will need current labs or, order them from Defy. You can ask about a script if your insurance will cover. Your PSA is elevated so do not ejaculate 72 hours before blood test to get a true reading. If your multivitamin contains biotin, cease taking it 72 hours before since biotin can alter blood test results.

    They are very successful with their telemedicine concept as evidenced by their number of staff and satisfied patients.

    Keep us updated Pete and good luck!

  27. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Orrin Israel View Post
    What protocol / treatment were you on, or on for Lyme?
    i was working with an LLmd for a while around 6 months of aintibiotics. Tried a bunch of them at varying doses and also went for iv aintibiotics. But it only lasted 2 days. I got phlebitis from the iv and had to get the mid line pulled. I never really had that bad of symptoms. But after I screwed my hormones up we were looking at everything. The antibiotics completely did my gut health in and that’s another big issue I need to fix.

  28. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Charliebizz View Post
    i was working with an LLmd for a while around 6 months of aintibiotics. Tried a bunch of them at varying doses and also went for iv aintibiotics. But it only lasted 2 days. I got phlebitis from the iv and had to get the mid line pulled. I never really had that bad of symptoms. But after I screwed my hormones up we were looking at everything. The antibiotics completely did my gut health in and that’s another big issue I need to fix.
    FWIW
    The DR that saw my Daughter would have used a PIC line but she lives in Atlanta and he is mobile Alabama.
    His first drug of choice was Minocycline 200 mg once a day.
    The Daughter had gut issues and he went to his #2 drug.
    Switched to clarithromycin 500mg once a day along with Diflucan 200mg once a week.
    She was on that for a year.
    It was a slow slog and she slowly improved.
    When she first saw him she could not work, much less get out of bed.
    After a year on antibiotics she was at least able to work.
    DR said it could be up to 2 years to completely get over the Lyme infection and the damage that it had done.
    She is at the 85%-95% pre-Lyme physical condition now.
    She still has issues, but they are minor considering what her initial condition was.

  29. #28
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    10
    Hi 1Draw, I had a full thyroid panel done and everything was in the normal range except my reverse T3 was high at 29.1. Just like you said! My TSH was 1.55 (toward the low normal range). So perhaps my symptoms are thyroid related? My PCP did not order this lab, I went to one on my own. Should I ask my PCP for a referral to an endocrinologist for treatment? I as starting to question if I should be on TRT. Can a high reverse T3 cause low T?

  30. #29
    Low thyroid can affect T levels but more importantly the symptoms of Low T and Low Thyroid are very similar. With high RT3 your T3 is pooling which usually means you have low ferritin or cortisol. Those will have to be checked next in order to start ruling things out.

  31. #30
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    285
    Quote Originally Posted by PeteMax View Post
    Hi 1Draw, I had a full thyroid panel done and everything was in the normal range except my reverse T3 was high at 29.1. Just like you said! My TSH was 1.55 (toward the low normal range). So perhaps my symptoms are thyroid related? My PCP did not order this lab, I went to one on my own. Should I ask my PCP for a referral to an endocrinologist for treatment? I as starting to question if I should be on TRT. Can a high reverse T3 cause low T?
    Petemax an endocrinologist is NOT who you want to see. The majority have no clue on how to treat low T and high Reverse t3. As I mentioned in previous post, call Defy Medical and get started with them. Dr. Saya and Dr. Calkins both are well trained to think outside of box of the AMA guidelines on treating low T and I would almost bet they have experience with Lymne's disease. With a TSH of 1.55 the med school trained MD's are going to say your Thyroid is normal, give you prescriptions that treat your symptoms or tell you to exercise more and send you on your way.

    I have been on T therapy for 3 years now and am currently injecting T Cypionate with grapeseed oil 30mg EOD and also taking 5mg Liothyronine 3-4x day since that was diagnosed on 2/28 and am beginning to feel better. I have even started going back to the gym which is promising considering how I felt before the high Reverse T3 was diagnosed. You will get there once you get the proper guidance for your low T and Lyme's disease.

    I believe Dr. Saya mentioned in a post that he has treated an Endocrinologist who was being treated by his peers with no positive results. This says a lot about his experience.

    Good luck and keep us posted!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Very Basic Guide To Lyme Disease In The USA
    By dhb2603 in forum Health & Wellness
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 04-29-2018, 12:08 PM
  2. Chronic Lyme Disease – Another Negative Study
    By Vince in forum Health & Wellness
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 06-07-2016, 01:45 PM
  3. Lyme Disease and Hypothyroidism
    By Orrin Israel in forum Thyroid, DHEA, Cortisol, Prolactin, Pregnenolone and More
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 04-06-2016, 08:53 PM
  4. Low testosterone increases Alzheimer's risk
    By Nelson Vergel in forum Testosterone- Miscellaneous Studies
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-17-2015, 12:39 AM
  5. Low free T3 can increase cardiovascular disease
    By Nelson Vergel in forum Thyroid, DHEA, Cortisol, Prolactin, Pregnenolone and More
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-21-2015, 10:55 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •