Using protocol change to spike dopamine?

[Willyt]

I have kept a crude TRT journal over the last several years, adding notes every week or so. On occasion, I will review the journal to spot any patterns or conclusions that I can draw with a reasonably high degree of certainty. This is how I often find myself repeating the same mistakes over again LOL.

While many of my results have been non-sensical or confounding, one pattern has developed over time - I almost always report feeling good after a protocol change - e.g., the form of testosterone, dose, frequency, and/or injection method. It doesn't matter whether the dose increased or decreased. Same result. Comments like: "Wonderful day! So motivated and appreciated everyone and everything." This usually goes on for 2-3 days and then inevitably I report an emotional flatness, feeling unmotivated, etc.

Many others on this forum have reported feeling a similar temporary boost following a protocol change. The question is what causes this marvelous yet fleeting feeling? Is it the placebo effect? Or is it a dopamine spike?

Dopa-fiend
I tend to think its the latter and have concluded that most of my issues are driven more by a dopamine deficiency than low T. This is especially true when it comes to libido.

Upon reflection, I realize that I've been chasing dopamine most of my adult life. My family often kids me about being a hobby junkie. The pattern is the same every time. I find a new hobby, research the hell out it, go balls-to-the-wall obsession, surf the high and then lose interest. Thankfully I don't usually waste new gear because I will "rediscover" the hobby at some point and the cycle begins anew. Its a bit maddening, but at least you learn to laugh at yourself as you grow older.

How to harness power of protocol changes?
Is there a way to regularly use protocol changes to manipulate dopamine without sabotaging TRT? The dopamine spike would be temporary since the body will self-regulate, but I would take it!

For example, one could rotate from daily injections to EOD every other week. Or for daily injectors (like me), one could change his dose each day using a ladder approach: 7mg => 8mg => 9mg => 10mg and then back down to 7mg.

 

[M.J]

I have kept a crude TRT journal over the last several years, adding notes every week or so. On occasion, I will review the journal to spot any patterns or conclusions that I can draw with a reasonably high degree of certainty. This is how I often find myself repeating the same mistakes over again LOL.

While many of my results have been non-sensical or confounding, one pattern has developed over time - I almost always report feeling good after a protocol change - e.g., the form of testosterone, dose, frequency, and/or injection method. It doesn't matter whether the dose increased or decreased. Same result. Comments like: "Wonderful day! So motivated and appreciated everyone and everything." This usually goes on for 2-3 days and then inevitably I report an emotional flatness, feeling unmotivated, etc.

Many others on this forum have reported feeling a similar temporary boost following a protocol change. The question is what causes this marvelous yet fleeting feeling? Is it the placebo effect? Or is it a dopamine spike?

Dopa-fiend
I tend to think its the latter and have concluded that most of my issues are driven more by a dopamine deficiency than low T. This is especially true when it comes to libido.

Upon reflection, I realize that I've been chasing dopamine most of my adult life. My family often kids me about being a hobby junkie. The pattern is the same every time. I find a new hobby, research the hell out it, go balls-to-the-wall obsession, surf the high and then lose interest. Thankfully I don't usually waste new gear because I will "rediscover" the hobby at some point and the cycle begins anew. Its a bit maddening, but at least you learn to laugh at yourself as you grow older.

How to harness power of protocol changes?
Is there a way to regularly use protocol changes to manipulate dopamine without sabotaging TRT? The dopamine spike would be temporary since the body will self-regulate, but I would take it!

For example, one could rotate from daily injections to EOD every other week. Or for daily injectors (like me), one could change his dose each day using a ladder approach: 7mg => 8mg => 9mg => 10mg and then back down to 7mg.

I feel it’s more to do with getting used to a level than changing it daily. I notice when I stop hcg every three weeks I get this bost which can last for a week or two.

 

[bixt]

@Willyt you sir are on the right track! I have posted a couple times on this observation.

I use a little bit more variation personally. Eg 7mg daily for some weeks, then 14mg daily, then 20mg daily, even 35mg daily, then taking 2 weeks break and starting over. The most time spent is at the lowest doses, and I am shocked at the effectiveness at just 7mg a day.

A very interesting observation - night wood goes away after a while on a given dose. Moving to the next dose brings it back! So every time night/morning wood stops, thats when I move to the next sub protocol. @readalot I have promised a post on this a few months back and never got round to it. Well, here it is.

This vary the dose has been working for me both with and without HCG. Also HCG brings back night wood the night 500iu is injected, if it had stopped.

Variation is the name of the game.

 

[bixt]

Guys, a small mistake in the above. 7mg daily should rather be 10mg daily (70mg /week).

 

[M.J]

Guys, a small mistake in the above. 7mg daily should rather be 10mg daily (70mg /week).

I just started 10 mg daily, I guess daily injections can give more control if you want to change a lot.
Have you noticed increase in libido when you go down ? Recently when I shifted to daily I used half of my dose and went completely flat. Nothing moving in my body

 

[Cataceous]

... Or is it a dopamine spike?

Dopa-fiend
I tend to think its the latter and have concluded that most of my issues are driven more by a dopamine deficiency than low T. This is especially true when it comes to libido.
...

Why not tackle it head on with a dopamine booster, e.g. selegiline?

 

[DaytonaJonah]

Why not tackle it head on with a dopamine booster, e.g. selegiline?

Playing with ones dopamine levels has me hesitant about starting selegiline. Cat, how have you addressed that concern? And, have you noticed a significant improvement using selegiline vs. not?

 

[Cataceous]

Playing with ones dopamine levels has me hesitant about starting selegiline. Cat, how have you addressed that concern? And, have you noticed a significant improvement using selegiline vs. not?

I view using selegiline as an attempt to counteract some of the effects of aging. I have said it's probably not something younger guys should be messing with. What swayed me was the description of the increase in MAO-B with aging, along with the promising animal studies.

The main benefit I've noticed is improved mood. Using selegiline correlated with improved motivation and optimism, and also the virtual elimination of the occasional "blah" day in which everything seemed pointless. There may have also been improvements in libido and sexual function, but they are more subtle. Low-and-slow on the dosing—over two and a half years I've increased from 1.25 mg to 3 mg per day.

 

[Gman86]

I view using selegiline as an attempt to counteract some of the effects of aging. I have said it's probably not something younger guys should be messing with. What swayed me was the description of the increase in MAO-B with aging, along with the promising animal studies.

The main benefit I've noticed is improved mood. Using selegiline correlated with improved motivation and optimism, and also the virtual elimination of the occasional "blah" day in which everything seemed pointless. There may have also been improvements in libido and sexual function, but they are more subtle. Low-and-slow on the dosing—over two and a half years I've increased from 1.25 mg to 3 mg per day.

How do u take the 3mg/ day? Do you take it orally or sublingually? And if sublingually, how long do u let it dissolve and swish around for? And do u swallow or spit the saliva out after ur done swishing it around?

 

[Willyt]

@Willyt you sir are on the right track! I have posted a couple times on this observation.

I use a little bit more variation personally. Eg 7mg daily for some weeks, then 14mg daily, then 20mg daily, even 35mg daily, then taking 2 weeks break and starting over. The most time spent is at the lowest doses, and I am shocked at the effectiveness at just 7mg a day.

A very interesting observation - night wood goes away after a while on a given dose. Moving to the next dose brings it back! So every time night/morning wood stops, thats when I move to the next sub protocol. @readalot I have promised a post on this a few months back and never got round to it. Well, here it is.

This vary the dose has been working for me both with and without HCG. Also HCG brings back night wood the night 500iu is injected, if it had stopped.

Variation is the name of the game.

Very interesting! That is quite a wide range of doses. How long you do you stay on the higher daily doses? Days? Weeks? Is the idea that you ramp up over time and then go cold turkey to allow it to run off and restart?

I've had the same nocturnal wood experience following nearly every protocol change (including going cold turkey).

 

[bixt]

Why not tackle it head on with a dopamine booster, e.g. selegiline?

Why not tackle it even more head with the best of dopamine boosters e.g. cocaine?

(Just kidding)

 

[Willyt]

Why not tackle it head on with a dopamine booster, e.g. selegiline?

I've thought about your experience with selegiline. Admittedly like @DaytonaJonah, I am a little spooked at targeting dopamine directly even though it sounds exactly like what I'm looking for. I need to re-read some of your other posts on the topic.

Have you experienced any side effects like sleep disruption at the low dose?

 

[bixt]

Have you noticed increase in libido when you go down ?

Strangely, the best libido and hardest EQ is at the lowest two doses of this in flux protocol. i.e. around 70 and 105mg/week (10-15mg day). Its also where more than half of the time in this protocol is spent, but nothing is set in stone.

But as I mentioned, wood stops at some point and "shifting the gears upward" fixes that for a while. And so on and so forth.

And then when there is no wood at the higher end of the range, stopping injections causes wood to return after a few days. And when that stops again, starting the protocol at the beginning at 10mg daily fixes it.

The aim of my usage of this method is to have the honeymoon effect most of the time.

 

[bixt]

Very interesting! That is quite a wide range of doses. How long you do you stay on the higher daily doses? Days? Weeks? Is the idea that you ramp up over time and then go cold turkey to allow it to run off and restart?

Most time on the lower end ,and then just a couple weeks on each of the higher doses. Its going to take many months before I can give give a more concrete answer. But def measured in weeks and not days.

It was never an "idea" to ramp up anything, this was discovered by mistake. But, yes, perhaps it ramps up and follows the rise and fall of pellets (which incidentally, give high reported libido). The cold turkey is probably not cold turkey in effect either, the large build of the ester at the higher doses would still be slowly releasing. In all probability its a slow decline over 2 weeks.

I've had the same nocturnal wood experience following nearly every protocol change (including going cold turkey).

Excellent! Now we are getting somewhere. This is valuable info.

 

[Cyclingislife]

I agree with this observation & keep a journal as well! I also have experienced similar patterns that WillyT states. I’ve evolved my protocol through trial & error over time & use testosterone cypionate & nothing else. I’ve dropped the AI & no longer use HCG. I adjust my dose slightly ever 6-8 weeks staying between 20mg EOD & 24mg EOD, IM shots in the deltoid with insulin syringe. It’s a small change in dose but I notice it Keeps me in my sweet spot! I’m able to stay lean, good sex drive, night wood, great mood, etc. I’ve tried daily but I like the balance of convenience & flexibility of EOD injections. I feel like the secret to TRT is taking a low enough dose frequently enough to avoid sides, keep hematocrit in Range, don’t spike E2, etc. I also believe you have to be willing to be your own Guinea pig & try different protocols until you find what works! It can be a maddening roller coaster but it’s worth it when you dial it in. You have to take what you learn & test it out because we’re all different & what works for one does not work for all. I agree with Willy, The most important piece of the puzzle I found is a daily diary documenting your dose & how you feel each day. I track dose, how I feel, sex drive & sleep, it only takes a minute to write it down. That’s how I found my sweet spot. How you feel is paramount to any numbers you see on your labs.

 

[Cataceous]

How do u take the 3mg/ day? Do you take it orally or sublingually? And if sublingually, how long do u let it dissolve and swish around for? And do u swallow or spit the saliva out after ur done swishing it around?

Oral on an empty stomach.

I've thought about your experience with selegiline. Admittedly like @DaytonaJonah, I am a little spooked at targeting dopamine directly even though it sounds exactly like what I'm looking for. I need to re-read some of your other posts on the topic.

Have you experienced any side effects like sleep disruption at the low dose?

I've mentioned this article a number of times. It might be on the optimistic side, but does give a decent overview of the potential benefits. Sample: "Selegiline (Deprenyl) provides selective protection against the age-related degeneration of the dopaminergic nervous system. It protects sensitive dopamine-containing neurons from the age-associated increases in glial cells (non-neuron brain cells) and the monoamine oxidase (type B) that they contain."

I have not experienced any obvious side effects. I have noted a decrease in prolactin, though at last check it was still within the reference range. It's surprising that I haven't had any sleep disruption, as I am otherwise very sensitive to stimulants—such as even very small amounts of chocolate.

 

[M.J]

I agree with this observation & keep a journal as well! I also have experienced similar patterns that WillyT states. I’ve evolved my protocol through trial & error over time & use testosterone cypionate & nothing else. I’ve dropped the AI & no longer use HCG. I adjust my dose slightly ever 6-8 weeks staying between 20mg EOD & 24mg EOD, IM shots in the deltoid with insulin syringe. It’s a small change in dose but I notice it Keeps me in my sweet spot! I’m able to stay lean, good sex drive, night wood, great mood, etc. I’ve tried daily but I like the balance of convenience & flexibility of EOD injections. I feel like the secret to TRT is taking a low enough dose frequently enough to avoid sides, keep hematocrit in Range, don’t spike E2, etc. I also believe you have to be willing to be your own Guinea pig & try different protocols until you find what works! It can be a maddening roller coaster but it’s worth it when you dial it in. You have to take what you learn & test it out because we’re all different & what works for one does not work for all. I agree with Willy, The most important piece of the puzzle I found is a daily diary documenting your dose & how you feel each day. I track dose, how I feel, sex drive & sleep, it only takes a minute to write it down. That’s how I found my sweet spot. How you feel is paramount to any numbers you see on your labs.

20mg worked good for me on EOD specially when I stop HCG. Which I do every 3 weeks for 10 days.
I wonder if it’s the HCG that’s kill it or it’s because of protocol change. The jury is still out for that.
Currently I am doing 10mg daily. To test it out.

 

[bixt]

Metabolites of selegiline: levoamphetamine, levomethamphetamine

Am looking to acquire some and came across this.

Lets discuss. Is selegiline not simply microdosing meth? (also the same thing as low dose Adderall)

 

[Cataceous]

Metabolites of selegiline: levoamphetamine, levomethamphetamine

Am looking to acquire some and came across this.

Lets discuss. Is selegiline not simply microdosing meth? (also the same thing as low dose Adderall)

I mentioned these metabolites in an earlier thread, suggesting that anyone subject to drug screening should avoid selegiline. Levoamphetamine is not that potent compared to dextroamphetamine, and is even "sold over-the-counter as a nasal decongestant."[R] You're free to characterize use of selegiline as microdosing levoamphetamine, but what is the significance when the metabolite is not the main driver of the results, has virtually no addictive potential at these doses, and has a good safety profile?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

My experience with selegiline has been pretty negative in doses between 2.5 mg and 5 mg daily. I felt that the initial benefits in mood and motivation waned over time, while I became gradually more and more irritable and angry. After some months I was a raging a-hole to people around me, with no patience for obstacles or setbacks.

I also have experience with amphetamine ADHD drugs and they cause me urinary tract inflammation that was duplicated by selegiline. I attributed that to the amphetamine metabolites.

I was in my 20's when I last used it and it seems possible that it is more useful at older ages if mao-b has increased. While selegiline has a honeymoon period like so many dopaminergic substances, the low dose mao-b selective doses of selegiline do not improve depression in studies -- you need higher doses that also inhibit mao-a for that effect. If I knew of 100 people that experimented with selegiline, there were probably only 2 or 3 still taking it years later. Again though, it was a younger crowd.

If you really want to dive down this rabbit hole, search for selegiline / deprenyl on longecity.org. There must be hundreds of threads and thousands of posts on it there, stretching back to the early 2000's.