Trans scrotal testosterone cream application is a game changer

[MIP1950]

You got a link to those papers? Was just pulling one from 1890s the other day unrelated to this topic. So nice we have so much digitized. Much easier now than the good ole days. Maybe that is why my TT/fT is so low, I am not climbing the stairs at the health science library as much as I used to.

 

[tareload]

Welcome back @RobRoy. How you been?

I am curious, why do you post with an anonymous account and exchange Dr. Saya on these topics when your prior account is still fully functional from what I can tell? Do you not want your claims or posts here associated with your professional practice?

I mean I get it and I post on these topics anonymously but I don't make money providing clinical care for people. Seems like Dr. Saya is at a disadvantage publicly commenting here with another presumed Dr. who is anonymizing himself. Equivalent of a public debate where on one side you have live person whose identity is known and on the other side of the stage you have a TV screen with person's face concealed and their voice changed to conceal their identity.

My layman's comments and questions
It's an interesting topic for sure. What do you see in Fig. 2 that is drastically different than the serum profiles of TT/DHT with men on large daily dosages of T cream to the scrotum? What happened to the serum TT levels of the DHT subjects during the trial while the DHT was elevated to supra levels?

View attachment 21708


Also, would you care to comment on the U-shaped nature of the panels in Fig. 5? How would you reconcile Fig 2 vs Fig. 5 in terms of overall risk of supraphysiologic levels of circulating hormones long term (Fig 5) vs 24 months (Fig. 2)?
View attachment 21707


View attachment 21710

Any comments on Fig. 4:
View attachment 21711


FYI, the comments you marked on the pdf have a name associated with them in case you meant to not post that:

View attachment 21709

Thanks for sharing the paper. Another good one I was reading recently:

Dihydrotestosterone Administration Does Not Increase Intraprostatic Androgen Concentrations or Alter Prostate Androgen Action in Healthy Men: A Randomized-Controlled Trial

Exogenous dihydrotestosterone (DHT), which substantially raises serum DHT and lowers serum T, does not significantly alter intraprostatic androgen levels or androgen-responsive gene expression in healthy men.Concern exists that androgen treatment might ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

@RobRoy: any responses here?

 

[Jerajera]

This is very interesting and confirms what we have already observed about scrotal application. Can you describe the benefits/effects you seem to be experiencing from the high DHT? As you know, I am interested in beginning this same protocol for various reasons.

The most notable benefits were higher confidence and self-esteem. I felt as if nothing anyone thought or felt about me could have any impact on my self-image. I've always had that tendency but this took it to an extreme level.

I also felt very focused and determined.

On the flip side of that, I felt very aggressive and anti-social at times, especially a few hours after application. It's almost as if it took my natural individualistic tendencies and turned them all the way up, it was very interesting. Not necessarily a bad feeling (for me at least), but probably detrimental to my relationships if I let it go on for too long.

Before trying the combo of injections + cream, I'm going to try just 1 click (50mg) AM and 1 click PM, so half the dose I've been on. I'm curious what that'll do. I'm sure I'll lose a lot of muscle mass since double that dose barely got me to the top of the range for TT/FT, but if I feel great mentally and emotionally, that's the number one priority to me.

Of note is the fact that my libido wasn't nearly as good as on daily Test Prop. No protocol ever came close to that

 

[MIP1950]

The most notable benefits were higher confidence and self-esteem. I felt as if nothing anyone thought or felt about me could have any impact on my self-image. I've always had that tendency but this took it to an extreme level.

I also felt very focused and determined.

On the flip side of that, I felt very aggressive and anti-social at times, especially a few hours after application. It's almost as if it took my natural individualistic tendencies and turned them all the way up, it was very interesting. Not necessarily a bad feeling (for me at least), but probably detrimental to my relationships if I let it go on for too long.

Before trying the combo of injections + cream, I'm going to try just 1 click (50mg) AM and 1 click PM, so half the dose I've been on. I'm curious what that'll do. I'm sure I'll lose a lot of muscle mass since double that dose barely got me to the top of the range for TT/FT, but if I feel great mentally and emotionally, that's the number one priority to me.

Of note is the fact that my libido wasn't nearly as good as on daily Test Prop. No protocol ever came close to that

What was your daily dose of Test Prop? Giving it some thought. Thanks.

 

[Jerajera]

What was your daily dose of Test Prop? Giving it some thought. Thanks.

15mg/day. Interestingly only put me at 20ng/dL Free T 12 hours post injection, which should be close to peak.

Never felt better though, workouts were great as well and I lost a lot of water compared to an equivalent Cyp dose

 

[MIP1950]

15mg/day. Interestingly only put me at 20ng/dL Free T 12 hours post injection, which should be close to peak.

Never felt better though, workouts were great as well and I lost a lot of water compared to an equivalent Cyp dose

Cool. Appreciate the info.

 

[Cataceous]

15mg/day. Interestingly only put me at 20ng/dL Free T 12 hours post injection, which should be close to peak.
...

Although of course not definitive, my measurements suggest a much earlier peak when using low doses of propionate, perhaps around three hours post-injection. Given that the testosterone in 15 mg of propionate is approaching double the amount produced by the average healthy young man, I suspect your peak free testosterone was over-range—unless your metabolism was unusually high.

 

[Jerajera]

Although of course not definitive, my measurements suggest a much earlier peak when using low doses of propionate, perhaps around three hours post-injection. Given that the testosterone in 15 mg of propionate is approaching double the amount produced by the average healthy young man, I suspect your peak free testosterone was over-range—unless your metabolism was unusually high.

Interesting. I usually get a lot out of not that much on Test C, so I was surprised at those results.

Makes me wonder how low I am 24 hours post injection. I guess for a complete profile I could test 3-4 hours and 24 hours post injection

 

[tareload]

Although of course not definitive, my measurements suggest a much earlier peak when using low doses of propionate, perhaps around three hours post-injection. Given that the testosterone in 15 mg of propionate is approaching double the amount produced by the average healthy young man, I suspect your peak free testosterone was over-range—unless your metabolism was unusually high.

Post in thread 'Test prop time til peak' Test prop time til peak

Post in thread 'Erection quality issues' Erection quality issues

The challenge with the Nieschlag data set (1990):

Using the original data points in the paper I calculate the following which fits what is reported in the paper:

Elimination half life = 21.6 hr
Absorption half life = 4.1 hr
Tmax = 12 hr


About 13% error on the model fit (RMSE).

However the first data point was collected at 14 hr.

Now, what if I add another data point hypothetically collected earlier in the time series:

Elimination half life = 22.4 hr
Absorption half life = 1.3 hr
Tmax = 5.6 hr

RMSE on the data fit is about the same.

That first data point (if taken earlier in time after injection) can drastically change estimated Tmax without changing estimated elimination half life very much:

Would also impact Cmax, AUC and MRT.

 

[Cataceous]

...
Now, what if I add another data point collected earlier in the time series:
...
Elimination half life = 22.4 hr
Absorption half life = 1.3 hr
Tmax = 5.6 hr

RMSE on the data fit is about the same.
...
That first data point (if taken earlier in time after injection) can drastically change estimated Tmax without changing estimated elimination half life very much:
...
Would also impact Cmax, AUC and MRT.

Very nice. I do believe this is a more accurate representation.

 

[tareload]

Very nice. I do believe this is a more accurate representation.

Thanks for continuing to educate folks on this. I was rather sloppy as I minimized RMSE for each data point instead of absolute deviation for each data point. But it doesn't change the result too much (13.7 vs 12 hr for Tmax) in the original example and about the same Tmax in the hypothetical example (5.4 vs 5.6 hr Tmax).

In case anyone was wondering why I got 12 hr instead of 14 hr Tmax from the original data set (digitized and pulled into Excel).


Minimizing the absolute deviation weights the data points at higher TT more heavily.

 

[Dr Justin Saya MD]

Hi Dr Saya, I thought you might find this additional data point interesting.

I ran labs on a protocol of 2 clicks (100mg) AM and 2 clicks PM of the 20% compounded Testosterone cream applied to the scrotum. I got my blood drawn at trough levels, 12 hours post application.

My TT and FT came back at the top of the range (1100ng/dL and 26ng/dL respectively), E2 (sensitive) at 55pg/mL and DHT at 500ng/dL (range 12-65ng/dL), around 8 times the top of the normal range.

This isn't completely surprising since even on Test C injections of 18mg/day (126mg/week), my DHT is 2x the range around 125ng/dL, with TT and FT only at the top of the normal range.

While there doesn't seem to be any long term studies on DHT levels that high, I'm going to exercise common sense here and assume that being at 8 times the range of any health marker or hormone is probably not healthily sustainable long term.

I did feel some mental/emotional benefits to the scrotal cream that I think I can reasonably attribute to the very high DHT levels since my TT/FT/E2 are around the same levels they were on injections, so I'm going to try a mix of injection and low dose cream to see if I can retain some of those advantages without shooting my DHT into the stratosphere

Exercising common sense is generally in one’s best interest!

 

[Tman]

It wou

The most notable benefits were higher confidence and self-esteem. I felt as if nothing anyone thought or felt about me could have any impact on my self-image. I've always had that tendency but this took it to an extreme level.

I also felt very focused and determined.

On the flip side of that, I felt very aggressive and anti-social at times, especially a few hours after application. It's almost as if it took my natural individualistic tendencies and turned them all the way up, it was very interesting. Not necessarily a bad feeling (for me at least), but probably detrimental to my relationships if I let it go on for too long.

Before trying the combo of injections + cream, I'm going to try just 1 click (50mg) AM and 1 click PM, so half the dose I've been on. I'm curious what that'll do. I'm sure I'll lose a lot of muscle mass since double that dose barely got me to the top of the range for TT/FT, but if I feel great mentally and emotionally, that's the number one priority to me.

Of note is the fact that my libido wasn't nearly as good as on daily Test Prop. No protocol ever came close to that

lt would be interesting to test you cream peak area 2-3 hours after dosing...I imagine it's close to double your 12 hour trough test.

 

[Jerajera]

It wou

lt would be interesting to test you cream peak area 2-3 hours after dosing...I imagine it's close to double your 12 hour trough test.

I'd be very surprised if it were that much higher. I could see something close to 1.5x but 2x would be shocking to me

 

[tareload]

I'd be very surprised if it were that much higher. I could see something close to 1.5x but 2x would be shocking to me

Scrot example:

Peak / 12 hr trough ratio dose dependent. Labia PK very different and looks closer to troches (fun dinner party trivia).

 

[MIP1950]

Post in thread 'Test prop time til peak' Test prop time til peak

Post in thread 'Erection quality issues' Erection quality issues

The challenge with the Nieschlag data set (1990):


View attachment 21821

Using the original data points in the paper I calculate the following which fits what is reported in the paper:
View attachment 21822

Elimination half life = 21.6 hr
Absorption half life = 4.1 hr
Tmax = 12 hr


About 13% error on the model fit (RMSE).
View attachment 21823

However the first data point was collected at 14 hr.

Now, what if I add another data point collected earlier in the time series:

View attachment 21825

Elimination half life = 22.4 hr
Absorption half life = 1.3 hr
Tmax = 5.6 hr

RMSE on the data fit is about the same.
View attachment 21826

That first data point (if taken earlier in time after injection) can drastically change estimated Tmax without changing estimated elimination half life very much:
View attachment 21827

Would also impact Cmax, AUC and MRT.

I admit I have difficulty following bio statistics. My read is that test prop peaks fast after injection(3 to 4 hours) and metabolites, I presume, would be active, longer. Would there be any advantage, theoretical or actual, to injecting a small dose twice a day(12 hours apart)?

 

[Ribeye]

I started on HRT right out of the gate with T cream applied twice daily (as close to every 12 hours as I can). I too, within a few days, felt like superman. People around me, no just my wife, noticed the difference as well. My labs all responded positively. Its now been about 6 months on cream. I cannot imagine changing over to injections, as I still feel so much better. Everything has improved, mood, energy, libido, (I can't imagine having much more libido sometimes its hard to focus on other things) weight loss, significantly improved ED, and I have gone up in dosage since the beginning, each time getting a little more improvement. I also made the mistake of having labs done once and not holding the morning dose before the blood draw....needless to say it showed wildly high total T....I don't understand why this isn't important, or perhaps it is, maybe someone out there could make sense of why it is proper to skip the morning dose and then have blood drawn for testing of total T and concomitant free T?

 

[Charliebizz]

I started on HRT right out of the gate with T cream applied twice daily (as close to every 12 hours as I can). I too, within a few days, felt like superman. People around me, no just my wife, noticed the difference as well. My labs all responded positively. Its now been about 6 months on cream. I cannot imagine changing over to injections, as I still feel so much better. Everything has improved, mood, energy, libido, (I can't imagine having much more libido sometimes its hard to focus on other things) weight loss, significantly improved ED, and I have gone up in dosage since the beginning, each time getting a little more improvement. I also made the mistake of having labs done once and not holding the morning dose before the blood draw....needless to say it showed wildly high total T....I don't understand why this isn't important, or perhaps it is, maybe someone out there could make sense of why it is proper to skip the morning dose and then have blood drawn for testing of total T and concomitant free T?

I feel like a lot of the guys from trt hormone optimization crew that run cream preach that so they can run absurd levels 24/7 but when they test and skip a dose it doesn’t look as crazy.

I was told my labs are useless by them if I tested peak lololol. Why wouldn’t I wanna know what my peak and trough are ??

 

[Fortunate]

I started on HRT right out of the gate with T cream applied twice daily (as close to every 12 hours as I can). I too, within a few days, felt like superman. People around me, no just my wife, noticed the difference as well. My labs all responded positively. Its now been about 6 months on cream. I cannot imagine changing over to injections, as I still feel so much better. Everything has improved, mood, energy, libido, (I can't imagine having much more libido sometimes its hard to focus on other things) weight loss, significantly improved ED, and I have gone up in dosage since the beginning, each time getting a little more improvement. I also made the mistake of having labs done once and not holding the morning dose before the blood draw....needless to say it showed wildly high total T....I don't understand why this isn't important, or perhaps it is, maybe someone out there could make sense of why it is proper to skip the morning dose and then have blood drawn for testing of total T and concomitant free T?

Interesting. What cream strength and what dosages are you using?

 

[Cooper]

I started on HRT right out of the gate with T cream applied twice daily (as close to every 12 hours as I can). I too, within a few days, felt like superman. People around me, no just my wife, noticed the difference as well. My labs all responded positively. Its now been about 6 months on cream. I cannot imagine changing over to injections, as I still feel so much better. Everything has improved, mood, energy, libido, (I can't imagine having much more libido sometimes its hard to focus on other things) weight loss, significantly improved ED, and I have gone up in dosage since the beginning, each time getting a little more improvement. I also made the mistake of having labs done once and not holding the morning dose before the blood draw....needless to say it showed wildly high total T....I don't understand why this isn't important, or perhaps it is, maybe someone out there could make sense of why it is proper to skip the morning dose and then have blood drawn for testing of total T and concomitant free T?

Where are you applying it?