Progesterone for men
- Thread starter BigJohn
- Start date
Gene Devine
Super Moderator
Men need progesterone but in lower serum levels compared to women.
If elevated it can have feminizing results for men...something we don't want.
If elevated it can have feminizing results for men...something we don't want.
Nelson Vergel
Founder, ExcelMale.com
I am 100 percent opposed to taking progesterone in any form or dose. It can make you fat, impotent, create blood clots, etc
Gene Devine
Super Moderator
Totally agree with this, there is almost no reason whatsoever for a man to supplement Progesterone.
Dr. John Crisler
Physician
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]I don't use it in my patients, except as an ingredient of the hairloss topical.
...but I have heard some stories of other physicians getting good results using PROG in some cases.
...but I have heard some stories of other physicians getting good results using PROG in some cases.
Nelson Vergel
Founder, ExcelMale.com
I think I have a strong bias against it. This drug is a progesterone mimicker and they gave it to my friends who were wasting. Fat, high blood sugar, blood clots and necrosis of hips were common. I know this was a higher dose.
James was part of my non profit back in the 90's.
Megace The Wrong Drug
By James Brockman (Reprinted with permission)
One of the most commonly used drugs for treatment of AIDS-related weight loss is megestrol acetate, which is sold as the brand name Megace by Bristol-Myers Squibb. Megace is a synthetic drug categorized as a gestagen, which is a class of drugs that mimic the actions of the naturally occurring female hormone progesterone. Originally the drug was developed to be an injectable contraceptive for women, but the drug has now found a role as a chemotherapeutic agent in the treatment of several cancers in women and men, such as cancers of the breast, uterus, and prostate. Two commonly observed side effects of Megace, increased appetite and weight gain, prompted its current use for AIDS-wasting.
The effects of progesterone and other gestagens, like Megace, on appetite and energy metabolism, are well known. Gestagens induce increased food intake by direct stimulation of the appetite centers in the brain. They also improve the efficiency of food energy used to produce new tissue; this effect of gestagens on increasing weight is seen even when gestagen-induced increase in food intake is prevented by restricting calories to maintenance levels.10 So much for the good points.
What Kind Of Weight Gain?
The problem with the weight gained from Megace is that it is primarily fat and water weight, with little lean tissue increase. , Through interactions with mineral corticoid receptors in the kidneys, specific metabolites of Megace promote retention of water. In addition some studies have shown that Megace increases the number of fat cells as well as their size. This is exactly what someone who is wasting or have lipodystrophy doesn't want. We should be clear that the focus of just putting weight on HIV(+) individuals is inappropriate. Studies are conclusive that survival is correlated with lean body mass, not total weight or fat weight. So if you want to be fat and hungry, take Megace, but do not expect to gain much muscle or live any longer.
Many Side Effects
Megace has almost too many side effects to list. For both men and women the most commonly observed side effect is loss of libido. When Megace was used as a female contraceptive, it worked too well. All the women lost their fertility, but they lost their normal sex drive too! Megace interacts with the progesterone receptors in the hypothalamus to inhibit gonadotropin release in both sexes. Gonadotropins stimulate testosterone production, and testosterone is necessary for a healthy sex drive in both men and women. The end-result of lower gonadotropins in men is not only lower testosterone production, and lower libido, but also testicular atrophy. In other words, the testicles shrivel up. Finally, low plasma testosterone levels are bad for HIV(+) men and women because they are associated with a weakened immune system and the loss of muscle tissue.
Because Megace and/or its metabolites have glucocorticoid activity, 9 Megace is also potentially immunosuppressive. Glucocorticoids are well known to inhibit proliferation of white blood cells including T cells, and weaken the body's response to infection, as well as slowing the healing process. Furthermore, a glucocorticoid responsive element has been identified in the RNA of the HIV virus, so it is possible that Megace could have a direct effect on stimulating viral replication. Other side effects related to the cortisol-like activity of Megace are glucose intolerance, full-blown diabetes, and suppression of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis.9 Resistance to cortisol is common in HIV, and withdrawal from Megace therapy could result in a dangerous state of adrenal deficiency. These conditions are associated with the later stages of HIV in cytokine-related wasting, so it makes little sense to use a drug that has the potential to make the complications of HIV infection even worse. Other problems seen with Megace include thrombosis (blood clots), carpal tunnel syndrome, and peripheral neuropathy.
Conclusions
When it comes to gaining muscle to rebuild a body weakened by AIDS, Megace cannot begin to stack up to anabolic steroids. While some people assert that Megace has a role as an appetite stimulant, there are other substances, like Marinol, that work with far fewer side effects. If your doctor is not yet aware of the benefits of Marinol and anabolic steroids and the problems associated with Megace, work to educate them, and be sure to ask questions if they tell you they would like to prescribe Megace for you. After all, your choice of therapies is up to you.
James was part of my non profit back in the 90's.
Megace The Wrong Drug
By James Brockman (Reprinted with permission)
One of the most commonly used drugs for treatment of AIDS-related weight loss is megestrol acetate, which is sold as the brand name Megace by Bristol-Myers Squibb. Megace is a synthetic drug categorized as a gestagen, which is a class of drugs that mimic the actions of the naturally occurring female hormone progesterone. Originally the drug was developed to be an injectable contraceptive for women, but the drug has now found a role as a chemotherapeutic agent in the treatment of several cancers in women and men, such as cancers of the breast, uterus, and prostate. Two commonly observed side effects of Megace, increased appetite and weight gain, prompted its current use for AIDS-wasting.
The effects of progesterone and other gestagens, like Megace, on appetite and energy metabolism, are well known. Gestagens induce increased food intake by direct stimulation of the appetite centers in the brain. They also improve the efficiency of food energy used to produce new tissue; this effect of gestagens on increasing weight is seen even when gestagen-induced increase in food intake is prevented by restricting calories to maintenance levels.10 So much for the good points.
What Kind Of Weight Gain?
The problem with the weight gained from Megace is that it is primarily fat and water weight, with little lean tissue increase. , Through interactions with mineral corticoid receptors in the kidneys, specific metabolites of Megace promote retention of water. In addition some studies have shown that Megace increases the number of fat cells as well as their size. This is exactly what someone who is wasting or have lipodystrophy doesn't want. We should be clear that the focus of just putting weight on HIV(+) individuals is inappropriate. Studies are conclusive that survival is correlated with lean body mass, not total weight or fat weight. So if you want to be fat and hungry, take Megace, but do not expect to gain much muscle or live any longer.
Many Side Effects
Megace has almost too many side effects to list. For both men and women the most commonly observed side effect is loss of libido. When Megace was used as a female contraceptive, it worked too well. All the women lost their fertility, but they lost their normal sex drive too! Megace interacts with the progesterone receptors in the hypothalamus to inhibit gonadotropin release in both sexes. Gonadotropins stimulate testosterone production, and testosterone is necessary for a healthy sex drive in both men and women. The end-result of lower gonadotropins in men is not only lower testosterone production, and lower libido, but also testicular atrophy. In other words, the testicles shrivel up. Finally, low plasma testosterone levels are bad for HIV(+) men and women because they are associated with a weakened immune system and the loss of muscle tissue.
Because Megace and/or its metabolites have glucocorticoid activity, 9 Megace is also potentially immunosuppressive. Glucocorticoids are well known to inhibit proliferation of white blood cells including T cells, and weaken the body's response to infection, as well as slowing the healing process. Furthermore, a glucocorticoid responsive element has been identified in the RNA of the HIV virus, so it is possible that Megace could have a direct effect on stimulating viral replication. Other side effects related to the cortisol-like activity of Megace are glucose intolerance, full-blown diabetes, and suppression of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis.9 Resistance to cortisol is common in HIV, and withdrawal from Megace therapy could result in a dangerous state of adrenal deficiency. These conditions are associated with the later stages of HIV in cytokine-related wasting, so it makes little sense to use a drug that has the potential to make the complications of HIV infection even worse. Other problems seen with Megace include thrombosis (blood clots), carpal tunnel syndrome, and peripheral neuropathy.
Conclusions
When it comes to gaining muscle to rebuild a body weakened by AIDS, Megace cannot begin to stack up to anabolic steroids. While some people assert that Megace has a role as an appetite stimulant, there are other substances, like Marinol, that work with far fewer side effects. If your doctor is not yet aware of the benefits of Marinol and anabolic steroids and the problems associated with Megace, work to educate them, and be sure to ask questions if they tell you they would like to prescribe Megace for you. After all, your choice of therapies is up to you.
Dr. John Crisler
Physician
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]Honestly, I don't know enough about it to comment.
But in my "TRT: A Recipe for Success" lecture, I list these actions of the very feminizing hormone progesterone:
Suppresses the HPTA
Causes gyno
Inhibits 5-AR
Elevates SHBG
Lowers libido
(they are all related, as you no doubt already noticed)
But in my "TRT: A Recipe for Success" lecture, I list these actions of the very feminizing hormone progesterone:
Suppresses the HPTA
Causes gyno
Inhibits 5-AR
Elevates SHBG
Lowers libido
(they are all related, as you no doubt already noticed)
Dr. John Crisler
Physician
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]Deca is similarly a progestin.
Progestins have been shown to dramatically increase the risk of cancer in women.
Natural progesterone does not.
What concerns me with respect to men's health is the observation what is bad for the breast in women is frequently also bad for the prostate in men.
Progestins have been shown to dramatically increase the risk of cancer in women.
Natural progesterone does not.
What concerns me with respect to men's health is the observation what is bad for the breast in women is frequently also bad for the prostate in men.
Dr. John Crisler
Physician
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]Oh, heck no.
Why not just hold/reduce the Arimidex, to allow E to rise?
I generally do not manipulate SHBG; I just work around it.
Why not just hold/reduce the Arimidex, to allow E to rise?
I generally do not manipulate SHBG; I just work around it.
Dr. John Crisler
Physician
Appreciation of SHBG is the centerpiece of sex hormone evaluation.
Nelson Vergel
Founder, ExcelMale.com
I knew you were going to say that about deca, Dr Crisler. But I disagree. Yes, like all androgens, it causes HPTA shut down, lower libido if used without TRT, and gyno in men with high aromatization who do not use anastrazole. But unlike progesterone, it does not make you fat, it does not raise your blood sugar, ir does not raise SHBG (it lowers it), and it increases muscle and strength. Nothing like progesterone or it would not be the most popular anabolic in the world that does not screw up your liver.
My first book was about nandrolone and I was part of 4 research teams that studied it. I think I know a bit about it but I do not want this site to become a nandrolone one.
My first book was about nandrolone and I was part of 4 research teams that studied it. I think I know a bit about it but I do not want this site to become a nandrolone one.
Nelson Vergel
Founder, ExcelMale.com
There is only harm in reducing estradiol to low levels. It may not cause sudden harmful events, but in the long term it would decrease the integrity of your bones, skin, cognitive function, sex drive and make you gain fat.
Dr. John Crisler
Physician
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]Just to finish, Deca is still a progestin. Progestins increase the risk of cancer in women. No claims can be made, for or against, with respect to this issue, as it has not been studied (to my knowledge); but common sense is important, too.
Nelson Vergel
Founder, ExcelMale.com
nandrolone is not progesterone
We studied it in women. But as we all know, nandrolone is not used long term.
Effect of Nandrolone Decanoate Therapy on Weight and Lean Body Mass in HIV-Infected Women With Weight Loss A Randomized, Double-blind, Placebo-Controlled, Multicenter
In summary, the results of the present study demonstrate that treatment with nandrolone can produce robust increases in weight and LBM, with no decrease in fat mass, in women with HIV-associated weight loss. Nandrolone therapy was not associated with statistically significant toxicities, although the study was too small for a full assessment of its safety. The long-term impact of reversing weight loss on morbidity and mortality in patients with HIV infection is not known. These caveats notwithstanding, nandrolone therapy may prove to be a beneficial means of increasing weight and LBM in women with HIV infection and other chronic catabolic diseases.
We studied it in women. But as we all know, nandrolone is not used long term.
Effect of Nandrolone Decanoate Therapy on Weight and Lean Body Mass in HIV-Infected Women With Weight Loss A Randomized, Double-blind, Placebo-Controlled, Multicenter
In summary, the results of the present study demonstrate that treatment with nandrolone can produce robust increases in weight and LBM, with no decrease in fat mass, in women with HIV-associated weight loss. Nandrolone therapy was not associated with statistically significant toxicities, although the study was too small for a full assessment of its safety. The long-term impact of reversing weight loss on morbidity and mortality in patients with HIV infection is not known. These caveats notwithstanding, nandrolone therapy may prove to be a beneficial means of increasing weight and LBM in women with HIV infection and other chronic catabolic diseases.
Dr. John Crisler
Physician
I see no mention of cancer risk evaluation.
Lots of things which bring short-term benefits will hurt us if used over time.
The whole point IS that nandrolone is not progesterone. That is the problem.
Lots of things which bring short-term benefits will hurt us if used over time.
The whole point IS that nandrolone is not progesterone. That is the problem.
Ronnie Albert
Member
Dr. Crisler, what about topical progesterone for hairloss? Is it effective? I have been using for years a topical solution of Minoxidil and Spironolactone, similar to the one you use with your patients, plus Progesterone at 2%. I know that Spironolactone should not be absorbed into the bloodstream if applied topically. Is it the same for progesterone?
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