UPDATE // New Member w/TRT protocol from Defy. Please compare, critique and advise!

Thread starter #41
BTW-> You said your doing M W F shots. Are you doing them the same time everyday? Cause you should do them Mon morning, Wed afternoon and Fr evening if you want them evenly spaced out. If you did them the same time every time you will have more of a gap over the weekend. Not the end of the world though.
This makes a lot of sense! But it leads me to this question: does the body not react differently depending on the timeof day you inject? No play with the natural ebb and flow of hormone patterns? Or does that only matter for daily injections?
 
Thread starter #42
For what it's worth, I've been on TRT several years and had levels from one end of the spectrum to the other. With that said, if my total t is over 1000ng, I can barely sleep even with Ambien. I have much higher shbg than you, so its not really comparing apples to apples. There are many men that state the same regarding high t levels. You are on a hefty dose for starting out and not really sure I'd be taking the AI without symptoms, because these can lead to bad side effects, been there done that.
Good to know! I've seen similar comments regarding T levels and sleep.

Coincidentally, I had a regular doctor's checkup scheduled for yesterday and had labs done this morning before my third round of injections. I have held off on the AI until I think I need it. How meaningful will the Estradiol number be after only five days on TRT and only two injections?
 
Thread starter #43
What do you guys think about DHEA supplementation based on my levels?

With a reference range of 102-416 ug/dL, my pre-TRT labs put me at 235. Defy prescribed 25mg every night when I mentioned my trouble sleeping. Specifically, that levels around 400mg would yield the best benefit for sleep and overthinking. I started my Test Cyp and HCG last week. Today is my third injection day. I have held off on the AI and have not even bought the DHEA.
 
#44
I supplement with 25mg of DHEA just to keep my levels in a good range. Here's my level and range. The range goes by age.

DHEA - Sulfate 347.3 range 48.9 - 344.2
 
#45
Good to know! I've seen similar comments regarding T levels and sleep.

Coincidentally, I had a regular doctor's checkup scheduled for yesterday and had labs done this morning before my third round of injections. I have held off on the AI until I think I need it. How meaningful will the Estradiol number be after only five days on TRT and only two injections?
It means nothing, levels are constantly changing for the next 4-6 weeks. Each time you inject this number will change so running labs is pointless.
 
#46
This makes a lot of sense! But it leads me to this question: does the body not react differently depending on the timeof day you inject? No play with the natural ebb and flow of hormone patterns? Or does that only matter for daily injections?
I don't think so. Were replacing natural with synthetic. I believe your taking Test C which most do which is a slower release compared to say Test P. Even Test P I would say doesn't completely mimic natural T production. If you want more of a science answer, I'm sure another member can chime in. I speak simple terms lol. That answers your second question too as far as what time during the day you take it. I don't believe even doing daily will be a exact replacement for what a persons body would naturally do. But I'm assuming it would be closer to mimicking it. Probably more so if you use Test P with daily.

Good to know! I've seen similar comments regarding T levels and sleep.

Coincidentally, I had a regular doctor's checkup scheduled for yesterday and had labs done this morning before my third round of injections. I have held off on the AI until I think I need it. How meaningful will the Estradiol number be after only five days on TRT and only two injections?
Probably not a lot yet. Make sure its sensitive or ultra sensitive (depending on what lab you use" to test you estradiol.

Read this thread about "half lives" it'll explain how long the different things u take like test, hcg and AI take to be in your system. https://www.excelmale.com/showthrea...-of-medications-Most-underrated-aspect-of-TRT

Also don't go crazy with drawing blood a lot or donating, you'll drive your iron numbers down. Ask me how I know lol. I'm paying the price now, trying to work them back up. I'm starting to think people would be better taking a smaller dose T a week were you wouldn't have to donate as much or at all and keep your healthy iron numbers then people that want more T and their donating every 3 months and running their iron down and feeling like crap. I started to feel better after starting to supplement with iron to get my levels back up, so I realize iron is important.

What do you guys think about DHEA supplementation based on my levels?

With a reference range of 102-416 ug/dL, my pre-TRT labs put me at 235. Defy prescribed 25mg every night when I mentioned my trouble sleeping. Specifically, that levels around 400mg would yield the best benefit for sleep and overthinking. I started my Test Cyp and HCG last week. Today is my third injection day. I have held off on the AI and have not even bought the DHEA.
I'm still amazed they never mentioned DHEA to me since I said I was a over thinker too with anxiety like yourself and we share the same numbers. I bought a small dose 5mg DHEA to start with. In your case if your not going to over think it take it before bed. If your not sure you want to start it yet you probably shouldn't. You may end up stressing yourself out over thinking it. I bought small dose 5mg DHEA to start with. To see how I like it and plan on working it up to 25mg a day if everything goes well. I haven't started using it yet though since I started taking preg first and want to confirm everything is going good with that first.

Just so you know from my reading, people that take DHEA either say they didn't feel a difference, felt a positive change or felt sleepy or had a headache. So nothing bad will happen if you try it. So don't over think it.
 
Thread starter #47
Probably not a lot yet. Make sure its sensitive or ultra sensitive (depending on what lab you use" to test you estradiol.

Read this thread about "half lives" it'll explain how long the different things u take like test, hcg and AI take to be in your system. https://www.excelmale.com/showthrea...-of-medications-Most-underrated-aspect-of-TRT

Also don't go crazy with drawing blood a lot or donating, you'll drive your iron numbers down. Ask me how I know lol. I'm paying the price now, trying to work them back up. I'm starting to think people would be better taking a smaller dose T a week were you wouldn't have to donate as much or at all and keep your healthy iron numbers then people that want more T and their donating every 3 months and running their iron down and feeling like crap. I started to feel better after starting to supplement with iron to get my levels back up, so I realize iron is important.
So I got numbers back. On day 5, which was an injection day, I got bloods drawn (pre-injection). So this is after my first two shots of Test C (50mg). Test was 532 (compared to 197 a month before starting TRT) and estradiol was 38 (compared to 21 a month before starting TRT). Since the blood test, I have taken two more shots of Test C. I am not sure if this test was sensitive or ultra sensitive, the standard range is 0-40pg/ml if that helps.

Took a shot yesterday (Day 8 on TRT) and last night I was over-frustrated by things I normally work through. This morning even more so; very anxious, impatient and irritable. Even slightly short of breath. Could have been the coffee but I drink coffee most every day. I settled down some but this morning would have been the wrong time to cross me and I'm not that type of guy at all! My estradiol was 21 pre-TRT and 38 after the first two injections. Is it reasonable to assume estradiol is even higher now? I have injected two more times since these bloods were taken showing estradiol at 38.

Thinking this is my cue to take the AI prescribed. Dose is .125. I fear a crash after reading horror stories. Thoughts?

Thank you for the link on half-lives. So much good info.

And thanks for all your input.
 

fifty

Active Member
#48
Santana, I just started a week ago as well with defy. After the first week I was feeling anxiety (which is extremely rare for me) and some minor labored breathing. I started taking the .125 arimidex and feel much better (no more anxious feelings).

I am a high SHBG guy at 65 (16-55) so idk if that matters. I never felt bad on arimidex though I have read that many do. A decade ago I was put on a PCT type regimine (post-finasteride syndrome) including 1mg arimidex EOD for a month taking my estrogen to near 0 and I felt fine. Probably because I didn't have 1000 internet posts putting horror stories in my head at that time :)

I know everyone is different...that's just my 2cents
 
#49
So I got numbers back. On day 5, which was an injection day, I got bloods drawn (pre-injection). So this is after my first two shots of Test C (50mg). Test was 532 (compared to 197 a month before starting TRT) and estradiol was 38 (compared to 21 a month before starting TRT). Since the blood test, I have taken two more shots of Test C. I am not sure if this test was sensitive or ultra sensitive, the standard range is 0-40pg/ml if that helps.

Took a shot yesterday (Day 8 on TRT) and last night I was over-frustrated by things I normally work through. This morning even more so; very anxious, impatient and irritable. Even slightly short of breath. Could have been the coffee but I drink coffee most every day. I settled down some but this morning would have been the wrong time to cross me and I'm not that type of guy at all! My estradiol was 21 pre-TRT and 38 after the first two injections. Is it reasonable to assume estradiol is even higher now? I have injected two more times since these bloods were taken showing estradiol at 38.

Thinking this is my cue to take the AI prescribed. Dose is .125. I fear a crash after reading horror stories. Thoughts?

Thank you for the link on half-lives. So much good info.

And thanks for all your input.
It would have been better to have a sensitive E test done, since its more accurate. If I had to guess I would say your E did go up though. If you are having symptoms then you should look into taking the AI. You do sound more emotional which I learned was the only signs I showed too when my E climbed a little to high. Did you call Defy to see what their suggestion is?

I can say when I was on your protocol, I took .25mg AI pill once on Mondays and Thursdays (.50mg total a week). That had my sensitive E come back at 28-30. I thought I felt great at that time but later on towards the end of that protocol (before I went to daily) I went to only .25mg total a week and notice I felt better. Which would be if you took one .125 AI pill Monday and again on Thursday to have it spaced out threw the week. Taking two of those a week I don't believe will shut your E down based on your T and HCG dose.

You can try that for two weeks and see if you feel better. But I'd suggest calling Defy and running it by them first, since I'm no Dr lol.

Have you already taken matters into your own hands? You can't make good decisions when your emotional. Don't start popping AI like candy. Do you feel better now or are the symptoms the same or worse?
 
Thread starter #50
It would have been better to have a sensitive E test done, since its more accurate. If I had to guess I would say your E did go up though. If you are having symptoms then you should look into taking the AI. You do sound more emotional which I learned was the only signs I showed too when my E climbed a little to high. Did you call Defy to see what their suggestion is?

I can say when I was on your protocol, I took .25mg AI pill once on Mondays and Thursdays (.50mg total a week). That had my sensitive E come back at 28-30. I thought I felt great at that time but later on towards the end of that protocol (before I went to daily) I went to only .25mg total a week and notice I felt better. Which would be if you took one .125 AI pill Monday and again on Thursday to have it spaced out threw the week. Taking two of those a week I don't believe will shut your E down based on your T and HCG dose.

You can try that for two weeks and see if you feel better. But I'd suggest calling Defy and running it by them first, since I'm no Dr lol.

Have you already taken matters into your own hands? You can't make good decisions when your emotional. Don't start popping AI like candy. Do you feel better now or are the symptoms the same or worse?
I did take one .125 pill and felt much much much better within a couple of hours. This was Day 9 on TRT after having injected the day before.

I have had two more injection days since and have felt really good. I've been hyper aware of my mood to react if needed but I have felt good. I hope to avoid taking these. I think I read somewhere (Crisler?) that estradiol levels can correct themselves on their own if given a chance (or if certain injection protocols are followed)... does this sound true or familiar? I forgot where I got that from.

You reduced to .25 weekly when you went daily. Is this because estrogen conversion is minimized on daily, and so needed less AI?

I had previously called Defy regarding my concerns with the AI. They had originally prescribed it at .125 three times a week but agreed that I can keep it aside and take it if I feel the need.
 
Thread starter #51
Santana, I just started a week ago as well with defy. After the first week I was feeling anxiety (which is extremely rare for me) and some minor labored breathing. I started taking the .125 arimidex and feel much better (no more anxious feelings).

I am a high SHBG guy at 65 (16-55) so idk if that matters. I never felt bad on arimidex though I have read that many do. A decade ago I was put on a PCT type regimine (post-finasteride syndrome) including 1mg arimidex EOD for a month taking my estrogen to near 0 and I felt fine. Probably because I didn't have 1000 internet posts putting horror stories in my head at that time :)

I know everyone is different...that's just my 2cents
Man, another reference to "Post-Finasteride syndrome". I took it along with rogaine in my early 20's, finasteride only for a 2 or 3 months. I've been wondering recently if this contributed to my Low-T.
 
#52
I did take one .125 pill and felt much much much better within a couple of hours. This was Day 9 on TRT after having injected the day before.

I have had two more injection days since and have felt really good. I've been hyper aware of my mood to react if needed but I have felt good. I hope to avoid taking these. I think I read somewhere (Crisler?) that estradiol levels can correct themselves on their own if given a chance (or if certain injection protocols are followed)... does this sound true or familiar? I forgot where I got that from.

You reduced to .25 weekly when you went daily. Is this because estrogen conversion is minimized on daily, and so needed less AI?

I had previously called Defy regarding my concerns with the AI. They had originally prescribed it at .125 three times a week but agreed that I can keep it aside and take it if I feel the need.
No, while I was on your protocol M/W/F 50mg test C and HCG Tue/Thur/Sat 330IU's I was taking .25mg AI Mon and Thurs for a while. I decided I wanted to try and lower it and see how I felt. I felt better with the lower dose of .25 ONCE a week. Technically it would have been wiser to split the .25mg pills so I'd take one .125mg pill say Mon and another on Thurs but I only had .25mg pills. I stayed like that for around 3 to 4 weeks before switching to my new daily protocol. So i'd say I had a long enough ride "steady state" on the lesser AI dose to confirm it was better for me and THAT protocol. RIGHT NOW since I've started daily I haven't taken any AI pills.

Iv'e learned a lot here from a member named MadMan and I've heard him mention the Crisler dr so I checked it out and liked his idea of not just treating a number but your symptoms which MadMan has mentioned as well. Others have mentioned the same thing, you can't just go by your numbers, it matters how you feel also. So I wanted to see how I'd felt with a slightly higher E. I felt better. Wasn't "oh my God better", but it was a improvement and I liked the idea of taking lessor AI if possible.

In your case and I'm only guessing here on everything I have read and seen others take for a certain dose, I'd say you will probably have to take some amount of AI. Your not exactly taking a small dose like 100mg total a week of test. Either .125mg twice or three times a week if I had to guess you'll need to take. BUT everyone is different so you never know. My only suggestion to you being you want to take as little AI as possible is switch your HCG days to the day BEFORE your test shot. If you take both the same day the next day they begin to hit at the same time so your more likely to have conversion to E. If you took the HCG the day before your test it would hit the day you would inject your T but the T shot wouldn't hit till the following day. Hope I explained that in a way you understand lol. Read this...

http://drjohncrisler.com/the-crisler-hcg-protocol---part-deux.html

"If you are taking test cyp shots twice per week, and want to take HCG similarly, take the HCG (250-500iu) the day before the test cyp shot, each time. We don’t want to unnecessarily stack the HCG on top of the test cyp shot. If you are doing QOD or even daily test cyp shots (some actually do), it won’t matter."

May not be that much of a benefit since your doing three days a week but it may help if you don't mind the schedule (pinning almost everyday).

Yes your body needs "at least" 6 weeks to find a new standard. You should try to ride it out and not think too much. I know its easier to say then to do lol, but try. Taking that one AI pill and saying you felt better within two hours I have to think it was more in your head since I don't think it would have worked that fast. So that just shows you how powerful your mind is. Stay positive and think about how much better your going to feel as time goes on.

I'm glad your feeling better.
 

fifty

Active Member
#53
Man, another reference to "Post-Finasteride syndrome". I took it along with rogaine in my early 20's, finasteride only for a 2 or 3 months. I've been wondering recently if this contributed to my Low-T.
I was a college athlete and started finasteride soon after I graduated. No history of anabolic use or prohormones or anything like that. After about about a year or so on finasteride, I started feeling a bit off. Eventually went to see Dr Crisler. My total T was like 300 and very high shbg so very low free T (at age ~23 mind you). He put me on a PCT-like program for a while and I felt better for a long time after.

I wish I had a good set of labs before I started finasteride. Unfortunately I don't. Finasteride didn't make me feel god awful like I've heard it does to some guys but it definitely wasn't good.
 
#54
Thinking this is my cue to take the AI prescribed. Dose is .125. I fear a crash after reading horror stories.
These things affect us all differently to some degree. I also was freaked out about AIs after all my reading, video watching and podcast listening prior to starting treatment. I have tried to take as little AI as possible, in fact I started out trying to take none. BUT as it turns out I've had to take quite a bit of anastrozole so far and it's only made me feel better.

Some guys are very sensitive to it, others like me seem not to be. Also probably has something to do with your estrogen levels pre-treatment, what feels "normal" to you.
 
Thread starter #55
Here is my update after three months on TRT with Defy!

I feel very good. I have not had my follow-up because estradiol tests are delayed at LabCorp but here are the test results taken after 11 weeks.

Testosterone, Serum ..... (264 - 916 ng/dL) ........ 197 --> 1376
Testosterone, Free ......... (8.7 - 25.1 pg/nL) ....... 6.4 --> 45
DHEA .......................... (102.6 - 416.3 ug/dL) ... 235 --> 413
TSH ............................ (0.450 - 4.500 uIU/mL) . 1.25 --> 2.0
LH .............................. (1.7 - 8.6 mIU/mL) ....... 5.2 --> n/a
IGF-1 .......................... (88 - 246 ng/mL) ......... 216 --> n/a
SHBG ............. (16.5 - 55.9 nmol/L) ....... 23.7 --> 16.9
Estradiol, Sensitive ........ (8 - 35 pg/mL) ............ 21.9 --> 46.4
PSA .............. (0.0 - 4.0 ng/mL) ....... 0.4 --> 0.6
Hematocrit ... (40% - 52%) .... 46.6% --> 51.4%

Here is my protocol:
  • T Cyp 150mg/wk (M/W/F)*
  • HCG 350iu SQ (M/W/F)*
  • Anastrozole 0.125mg (M/W/F)*
  • DHEA 25mg every night
  • Vitamin D3 5000 iu daily
  • Fish oil for HDL support
*T Cyp, HCG and Anastrozole to be taken at the same time.


Based on this community's input and experiences, I do Monday morning, Wednesday afternoon and Friday night. I take the TCyp and HCG at the same time but take Anastrozole 24 hours later.

  • Ran out of HCG for about 10 days before refills came in. Libido slowed down and overall feeling of wellbeing and positivity lessened. Still far better than pre-TRT. Also noticed my penis was not as full when flaccid.
  • Libido has been strong and sad. Wife cannot keep up. Morning wood without fail, really strong. Also happens 2 or 3 times throughout the day. Teenager status.
  • Energy levels were mostly good. Insomnia several nights in the first two months despite vaping cannabis (which usually does the trick).
  • Appetite came on strong in the first couple of weeks. Has settled down but is good.
  • Mood has been good and stable since taking the Anastrozole as prescribed starting week 2.
  • Sleep seems deeper since I started DHEA as prescribed in week 4. Wife says I snore more often now.
  • Body hair grows faster, might even be a little thicker in some areas.
  • I was advised to donate blood due to Hematocrit. I'll be doing that this week.
Please chime in if any of the above means anything to you. I appreciate all your input! It has been extremely useful. Thank you.
 
Last edited:
Thread starter #57
Why do you take the ai 24hrs later?
Saw that recommendation in several exchanges on this forum. Due to half lives between T-Cyp and the AI. As I understand it, T-Cyp starts to peak after about 24hrs and that's the best time for the AI to be doing it's thing.
 
#60
I updated my original post to include my SHBG level of 23.7

The anastrozole is my main concern as I start this. Based on reading people's experiences, E2 crash is what I fear most!

Apart from when to start it at all, are there any concerns about doing taking both at the same time? I've read here that anastrozole does it's thing within 4 hours, while testosterone peaks up to 48 hours after injection. If this is true, would it not be obvious to separate these?
They have u supplementing dhea but not pregnalone too??
 
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