you need to avoid seed oils (PUFA's)

[Phil Goodman]

So you concede the point, though try to obscure it by mislabeling the guy as morbidly obese. In fact he's pretty typical — especially of Americans, and the case illustrates that getting to a good weight is orders of magnitude more important than quibbling over macronutrients.

Concede what point? That if someone is obese and they lose almost 60 pounds they’ll see an improvement in health markers? I never contested that point so not sure why I would need to concede it. Obviously maintaining a healthy weight is important. The point was that some foods are clearly healthier than others, and there is a lot more than just simple caloric surplus involved in the explosion of health problems in America and countries which take on more of a western diet. To which you said “hey look at this guy who ate garbage, lost 60 pounds, and had an improvement in health”. That does nothing to dispute the point with regards to foods having different quality. And you actually agree with this because you say people should avoid processed foods. So it appears we actually agree on more than we disagree on. We both agree maintaining healthy weight is important and we both agree some foods should be eliminated from or minimized in diets based on processing and other factors.

It's easy to show that the science is against you in this, even if not definitively. If you want to eat fatty red meat in moderation then it's probably not going to kill you. Go full carnivore on the stuff and you increase your risk of issues due to the lack of balance.

For every one person you show me who ate McDonald’s while improving their health markers, I can show you 10 who ate a carnivore diet and improved their health markers…and I’d even be willing to bet that the improvements were greater. Not saying I’m a proponent of the carnivore diet, though I think it is superior to a traditional western diet(though that obviously isn’t saying much). I also don’t put much weight in studies or articles like the one you posted because there is an obvious bias against red meat for some reason. To suggest otherwise is to ignore the tons of absurd claims made against it.

 

[Cataceous]

Yes, decreasing a persons weight to get them closer to a healthy weight for their frame will always result in their health improving, but that doesn’t mean losing weight is magnitudes more important than what the person is actually eating. It’s not as black or white as that. They’re both very important, when it comes to optimal health.
...

Being a good weight is clearly orders of magnitude more important than the kind of in-the-weeds stuff you're promoting, especially since the observational studies point to health risks rather than benefits — with increasing red meat consumption — not just processed — or decreasing PUFA consumption. At this low level there's likely a genetic dependence regarding foods that are best for an individual, which is why studies are not yielding stronger signals. Most people should not be wasting time on this stuff until they are already at a good weight, are getting recommended amounts of exercise, and are eating a diet that is healthy according to current observational studies.

... So studies do have their place, but what u want to look at more is anecdotal experiences, and what people are actually experiencing in the real world. At the end of the day, that’s obv what’s more important

Studies are certainly not perfect, but when we have enough of them done well they are far superior to anecdotes. Anecdotes help us form hypotheses that can be tested with scientific rigor. By themselves they are weak and unreliable. You can't even accurately evaluate "what people are actually experiencing in the real world" without a study. There's a ton of bias and confounding factors to be considered and counteracted before you even start.

 

[Cataceous]

Concede what point? That if someone is obese and they lose almost 60 pounds they’ll see an improvement in health markers? I never contested that point so not sure why I would need to concede it. Obviously maintaining a healthy weight is important. The point was that some foods are clearly healthier than others, and there is a lot more than just simple caloric surplus involved in the explosion of health problems in America and countries which take on more of a western diet. ...

There are indeed foods that are clearly unhealthy, such as trans fats. Then there are foods such as the ones this thread is based on, where there's ambiguity and the current evidence is more in opposition to the proposition. As I argued in the previous post, it's largely a waste of time for the average person to be worried about this until more is known. Focus on the high-return items first.

There is some support for the idea that current health problems have contributing factors beyond body weight and lack of activity, but the usual suspects have stronger signals. More than two-thirds of U.S. adults are either overweight or obese, and a similar number is not getting adequate exercise. It's pretty clear where the main focus should be.

... I also don’t put much weight in studies or articles like the one you posted because there is an obvious bias against red meat for some reason. To suggest otherwise is to ignore the tons of absurd claims made against it.

It's easy to defame researchers this way, but what is your evidence? Take a look at the meta-study saying that an additional 50 grams of red meat daily increases the risk of heart disease by 9%. Where is the bias? You'd be better off just arguing that 9% is a weak signal that limits the conclusions one can draw. In return I would note that the N is quite large, so there's still a case against excessive consumption of red meat.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

exercise more eat less while sounds amazing, it simply does not work. every fat person knows this rule already. most tried. they failed. blame willpower all you want. i embarked on a weight loss journey about 6 months ago. I tried many different approaches. keto, tracking (eat everything). working out a lot for 2y. gym 4-5x, cardio 3x. 10h total. my weight started really to go down when i started doing a mostly red meat/fruit/honey/dairy diet. here and there rice/potatoes or even a diet coke. 27lb down, which equals 1lb/week on avg. 20 more to go. apart from the no more sun burns stuff, i noticed couple things. a) i never tracked a single meal, i just follow the simple rule, if truly hungry - steak/ground beef, if sweet craving - banana/apple/... .i most likely am in a small deficit but maybe not. i give 0 fucks. second thing i noticed that my core body temperature went up big time. sort of like always sweaty a bit - but never was this type of a guy. third, i have virtually unlimited energy at the gym. sometime i do weights for 60+ min and am like 'fuck i need to get out of here', but never tired. and training is on spot, always to failure. smaller rep/larger break(could play a role too). I do feel like I can sustain this forever. I even eat some cake/cookies sometimes when daughter bakes (butter only).
I stopped all PUFA's ofc (apart from whats in beef), nuts, beans, 98% grains (as said few exceptions).
I do large amounts of honey, maple syrup, fruit and small amounts of processed sugar (some drinks, pickles etc). 90% red meat, a bit fish, and pork/chicken rarely.
people who wait on 'science' going to wait till they die. you have to find something which works for you and stick to it. i am convinced that cutting seed oils was a key factor for me. red meat is definitely the healthiest food on the planet, next is fruit and maybe some veggies, but those are overrated IMO.
it is clear that apart of the highly unstable nature of seed oils they also promote overeating by messing with the cb1 receptors in your brain. so maybe its the same calorie for calorie, but there could be secondary effects. but tbh i don't buy into the calorie in/out dogma any longer. just watch recent videos from Nick Norwitz, or read stories about people who consumed excessive amount of coconut fat (above their maintenance) and still lost massive weight.

 

[Gman86]

exercise more eat less while sounds amazing, it simply does not work. every fat person knows this rule already. most tried. they failed. blame willpower all you want. i embarked on a weight loss journey about 6 months ago. I tried many different approaches. keto, tracking (eat everything). working out a lot for 2y. gym 4-5x, cardio 3x. 10h total. my weight started really to go down when i started doing a mostly red meat/fruit/honey/dairy diet. here and there rice/potatoes or even a diet coke. 27lb down, which equals 1lb/week on avg. 20 more to go. apart from the no more sun burns stuff, i noticed couple things. a) i never tracked a single meal, i just follow the simple rule, if truly hungry - steak/ground beef, if sweet craving - banana/apple/... .i most likely am in a small deficit but maybe not. i give 0 fucks. second thing i noticed that my core body temperature went up big time. sort of like always sweaty a bit - but never was this type of a guy. third, i have virtually unlimited energy at the gym. sometime i do weights for 60+ min and am like 'fuck i need to get out of here', but never tired. and training is on spot, always to failure. smaller rep/larger break(could play a role too). I do feel like I can sustain this forever. I even eat some cake/cookies sometimes when daughter bakes (butter only).
I stopped all PUFA's ofc (apart from whats in beef), nuts, beans, 98% grains (as said few exceptions).
I do large amounts of honey, maple syrup, fruit and small amounts of processed sugar (some drinks, pickles etc). 90% red meat, a bit fish, and pork/chicken rarely.
people who wait on 'science' going to wait till they die. you have to find something which works for you and stick to it. i am convinced that cutting seed oils was a key factor for me. red meat is definitely the healthiest food on the planet, next is fruit and maybe some veggies, but those are overrated IMO.
it is clear that apart of the highly unstable nature of seed oils they also promote overeating by messing with the cb1 receptors in your brain. so maybe its the same calorie for calorie, but there could be secondary effects. but tbh i don't buy into the calorie in/out dogma any longer. just watch recent videos from Nick Norwitz, or read stories about people who consumed excessive amount of coconut fat (above their maintenance) and still lost massive weight.

Amazing reply and anecdote, thanks for sharing! Calories in vs calories out is still the main way to lose weight, but ur absolutely right, and it isn’t the end all be all, in regards to weight loss. Hormones and metabolism also play huge roles. Sounds like u got ur metabolism/ thyroid functioning much better with this way of eating, thus the increase in body temp. Ur giving ur body all the micronutrients it needs to function properly, which can tremendously help with fat loss

The easiest way to lose weight is basically what ur doing. Just get as much of ur calories from red meat as possible. Especially fatty red meat. This will naturally satiate u each meal, so u don’t over eat, it will will keep u full for longer, so u don’t snack throughout the day and overeat that way, and it will also keep cravings down, since ur getting most of ur calories from protein and fats, and not getting big insulin spikes like u would with high carb meals, and consequently putting u on the sugar roller coaster, where u eat a bunch of carbs, it spikes ur blood sugar/ insulin levels, ur blood sugar levels then swing the opposite way, and then make u hungry/ crave more carbs/ sugar to bring ur blood sugar levels back up. When u get most of ur calories from fat and protein, u don’t get these big swings/ cravings, and it makes it much easier to not snack/ binge/ overeat. There’s obv more to it than that, in regards to why how ur eating is an amazing approach to achieving an optimal weight for a person’s frame, but that’s the main reasons why it’s working so well for u, imo

 

[Cataceous]

exercise more eat less while sounds amazing, it simply does not work. every fat person knows this rule already. most tried. they failed. blame willpower all you want. ...

We can to an extent, because obviously if I controlled a guy's calorie intake then I could make him lose an arbitrary amount of weight. Nonetheless, it can be exceedingly difficult to do this to yourself, particularly if you're used to eating processed foods. As you suggest, the concentrated sugars and fats override satiety signals, leading to overeating. Weaning off of this stuff isn't easy, but it's worth doing if you care about your health. The key is to make the transition to minimally processed foods with relatively low calorie density. The problem is that initially the healthier foods might taste like cardboard. However, eventually you adapt and healthy food tastes good again, and you start to find that the artificial stimulation of processed foods is off-putting.

 

[Cataceous]

.... Just get as much of ur calories from red meat as possible. Especially fatty red meat. ...

This is terrible advice, unsupported by dozens to hundreds of studies, which instead associate a significant intake of plant-based foods with better health and longevity. Limited amounts of red meat can be a part of a healthy and balanced diet, but making it a main staple is a poor choice.

 

[Gman86]

This is terrible advice, unsupported by dozens to hundreds of studies, which instead associate a significant intake of plant-based foods with better health and longevity. Limited amounts of red meat can be a part of a healthy and balanced diet, but making it a main staple is a poor choice.

Man, ur unfortunately way behind on current science, when it comes to diet. Ur views on diet are very antiquated. If I had to guess, u still have no idea that vegetables have plant defense chemicals/ toxins, as well as anti-nutrients, that can cause issues in a person when consuming them. Same with nuts, seeds and legumes. And I would assume that u think that cholesterol in food clogs arteries, and that LDL is a “bad” cholesterol, and the higher a persons LDL, the higher their risk of all cardiovascular disease. I would also assume that u think consuming cholesterol in food will increase triglyceride levels, since triglycerides are fats in our blood. I would also assume that u think eating grains are healthy for us. I would also assume that u think butter is bad for us. These are all antiquated/ incorrect assumptions, when it comes to diet and human health, that have been disproven many times over. U might be up on modern science, when it comes to hormones, but u clearly aren’t keeping up with current research when it comes to food, in regards to human health

 

[t_spacemonkey]

This is terrible advice, unsupported by dozens to hundreds of studies, which instead associate a significant intake of plant-based foods with better health and longevity. Limited amounts of red meat can be a part of a healthy and balanced diet, but making it a main staple is a poor choice.

there is really no evidence that saturated fat or animal protein is bad. most of those studies typically feed people a SAD diet, full of processed shit, add a steak and then blame the steak for whatever health issues those people have. those 'double placebo controlled studies' are similar to a religion those days. people will believe any shit because 'double placebo', not even looking at data in=data out, or who funded that stuff. nobody got fat because they overate on steak, bananas, potatoes, rice or even honey. I would argue it is impossible to do so. add flour/seed oils/sugar to the mix, and things change.
check this post by Nick Norwitz as a start. good evidence that sat fat causes your mitochondria to work efficiently and improves metabolism

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1774760972973908132

 

[Cataceous]

Man, ur unfortunately way behind on current science, when it comes to diet. Ur views on diet are very antiquated. If I had to guess, u still have no idea that vegetables have plant defense chemicals/ toxins, as well as anti-nutrients, that can cause issues in a person when consuming them. Same with nuts, seeds and legumes. And I would assume that u think that cholesterol in food clogs arteries, and that LDL is a “bad” cholesterol, and the higher a persons LDL, the higher their risk of all cardiovascular disease. I would also assume that u think consuming cholesterol in food will increase triglyceride levels, since triglycerides are fats in our blood. I would also assume that u think eating grains are healthy for us. I would also assume that u think butter is bad for us. These are all antiquated/ incorrect assumptions, when it comes to diet and human health, that have been disproven many times over. U might be up on modern science, when it comes to hormones, but u clearly aren’t keeping up with current research when it comes to food, in regards to human health

You should concentrate on what I said rather than raise straw man arguments about what I supposedly might think. You have not provided evidence that long-term high-meat diets provide benefits. You have also not cited studies showing that typical plant toxins in balanced diets are a health risk. WHO, for example, notes "In a usual balanced, healthy diet, the levels of natural toxins are well below the threshold for acute and chronic toxicity." Then there's also the possibility of hormesis:

The emerging answer has much to do with the strategies that plants have evolved over millions of years to protect themselves from pests. Bitter-tasting chemicals made by plants act as natural pesticides. When we eat plant-based foods, we consume low levels of these toxic chemicals, which mildly stresses cells in the body in much the same way that exercise or going without food for long periods does. The cells do not die—in fact, they get stronger because their response to the stress shores up their ability to adapt to still more stress. This process of bolstering cellular resilience is called hormesis—and a growing body of research indicates that it accounts for the health benefits of consuming fruits and vegetables. Understanding hormesis's effects may even provide new ways to prevent or treat some of the most devastating brain diseases, including Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and stroke.​

 

[Cataceous]

there is really no evidence that saturated fat or animal protein is bad. ...

This summary of studies somewhat agrees, but you still won't like the conclusion:

That said, replacing some of the saturated fat in your diet with unsaturated fat may offer several health benefits.​

​

This is not because saturated fat is “bad” but because unsaturated fats are particularly healthy and have been shown to protect against heart disease.​

Even so, the first cited study found that "... replacing some saturated fat with polyunsaturated fat in the diet led to a 21% lower risk of cardiovascular events, while replacing saturated fat with carbohydrates was linked to a 16% lower risk."

Then there's the second study @Gman86:

Results: Total saturated fat intake was not associated with a higher risk of heart disease. However, specific foods high in saturated fat had different effects on the risk of heart disease.​

​

For example, each 1% increase in total energy intake from yogurt or cheese was linked to a 7% and 2% lower risk of heart disease, respectively.​

​

Conversely, increased intake of red meat and butter were associated with a 7% and 2% higher risk of heart disease, respectively.​

These signals are too small to be conclusive, but they clearly contradict the proposition that red meat is uniquely healthy.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

This summary of studies somewhat agrees, but you still won't like the conclusion:

That said, replacing some of the saturated fat in your diet with unsaturated fat may offer several health benefits.​

​

This is not because saturated fat is “bad” but because unsaturated fats are particularly healthy and have been shown to protect against heart disease.​

Even so, the first cited study found that "... replacing some saturated fat with polyunsaturated fat in the diet led to a 21% lower risk of cardiovascular events, while replacing saturated fat with carbohydrates was linked to a 16% lower risk."

Then there's the second study @Gman86:

Results: Total saturated fat intake was not associated with a higher risk of heart disease. However, specific foods high in saturated fat had different effects on the risk of heart disease.​

​

For example, each 1% increase in total energy intake from yogurt or cheese was linked to a 7% and 2% lower risk of heart disease, respectively.​

​

Conversely, increased intake of red meat and butter were associated with a 7% and 2% higher risk of heart disease, respectively.​

These signals are too small to be conclusive, but they clearly contradict the proposition that red meat is uniquely healthy.

I would be open to the idea, that olive oil, avocados, fish is beneficial. so those 5 studies essentially point to a small benefit of saturated fats vs unsaturated. then the author of the article (not the study) still throws out the claim that pufa's might be beneficial, while linking to a study which claims, using a lot of the word 'may', at the same time even confirming that PUFA's cause weight gain.

Increasing PUFA intake probably slightly reduces risk of coronary heart disease and cardiovascular disease events, may slightly reduce risk of coronary heart disease mortality and stroke (though not ruling out harms), but has little or no effect on all-cause or cardiovascular disease mortality. The mechanism may be via lipid reduction, but increasing PUFA probably slightly increases weight.

so idea is the PUFA's decrease LDL, which they do, and as you know this is highly debated topic. I don't recall the exact source, but I remember listening to a podcast where it was stated that the reason LDL goes lower is due to oxidative stress. same as a statin which forces LDL into your cell and causing cell-damage. so yeah, it is out of your blood stream causing damage in your cells.

 

[Golfboy307]

Gman, I would like to see a few of these studies based on your quote below:

"In studies, people with the highest cholesterol levels had the least amount of cardiovascular events, and the people that had the lowest cholesterol levels had the most)"

If you could post some links that would be great.

 

[Mastodont]

What do you guys think about the idea that you should either eat mostly carbs or mostly fats? That fat blocks the cells and when you eat carbs the body makes excess insulin to try and get them in, included in this is that keto should not have a lot of protein, since protein also leads to insulin production and that stops the use of body fat for fuel. Carnivore seems to have a lot of protein, then again is someone is mostly carnivore, high fat, consumes some fruit on top of that, and lose body fat...there is also some evidence saying fruit consumption is inversely correlating with t2d. It's a bit confusing

 

[camygod]

What do you guys think about the idea that you should either eat mostly carbs or mostly fats? That fat blocks the cells and when you eat carbs the body makes excess insulin to try and get them in, included in this is that keto should not have a lot of protein, since protein also leads to insulin production and that stops the use of body fat for fuel. Carnivore seems to have a lot of protein, then again is someone is mostly carnivore, high fat, consumes some fruit on top of that, and lose body fat...there is also some evidence saying fruit consumption is inversely correlating with t2d. It's a bit confusing

Carnivore's are the new vegans
Stating stuff like red meat is the most healthy food that a humans needs is just another absolute
I don't trust and don't see evidence of this
I got fat from over eating all nutrients not just one
Hong Kong the highest consumer of red meat apparently still average under 200g a day and are not stuffing them selves with rib eye steaks daily

They have a balanced diet good health care and higher income

 

[t_spacemonkey]

What do you guys think about the idea that you should either eat mostly carbs or mostly fats? That fat blocks the cells and when you eat carbs the body makes excess insulin to try and get them in, included in this is that keto should not have a lot of protein, since protein also leads to insulin production and that stops the use of body fat for fuel. Carnivore seems to have a lot of protein, then again is someone is mostly carnivore, high fat, consumes some fruit on top of that, and lose body fat...there is also some evidence saying fruit consumption is inversely correlating with t2d. It's a bit confusing

i think there could be something to it. most processed foods are typically high in both. i typically split my carbs/fat in meals. upon waking 50g of carbs/greek yogurt. 2h after gym a steak. 3h later whey protein shake (carbs/protein), dinner red meat. has worked really well for me. my fasting insulin is below 5 or so. fasting glucose 60-70ng/dl. on keto my fasting glucose was always 100ng/dl.

 

[Gman86]

Gman, I would like to see a few of these studies based on your quote below:

"In studies, people with the highest cholesterol levels had the least amount of cardiovascular events, and the people that had the lowest cholesterol levels had the most)"

If you could post some links that would be great.

So I didn’t save the exact study I was referring to. I remember it being linked in a vid I was watching one time. I’ll have to see if I saved the vid in my notes somewhere. But here’s a few things I have saved on the topic of LDL. Based on the comments I have next to the 2nd video, it looks like the doctor might reference the study I was referring to, or a study very similar

-4:16 goes over functions of LDL
-11:15 goes over other benefits of ldl in regards to certain bacteria and infections, and prevents cell death

-Dr. Nadir Ali, an interventional cardiologist
(Dr talks about benefits of LDL, and goes over studies showing higher cholesterol levels result in less cardiovascular events/ overall mortality. Also goes over why statins are bad)

(4 min vid. Paul Saladino. LDL, friend or foe)

 

[Gman86]

You should concentrate on what I said rather than raise straw man arguments about what I supposedly might think. You have not provided evidence that long-term high-meat diets provide benefits. You have also not cited studies showing that typical plant toxins in balanced diets are a health risk. WHO, for example, notes "In a usual balanced, healthy diet, the levels of natural toxins are well below the threshold for acute and chronic toxicity." Then there's also the possibility of hormesis:

The emerging answer has much to do with the strategies that plants have evolved over millions of years to protect themselves from pests. Bitter-tasting chemicals made by plants act as natural pesticides. When we eat plant-based foods, we consume low levels of these toxic chemicals, which mildly stresses cells in the body in much the same way that exercise or going without food for long periods does. The cells do not die—in fact, they get stronger because their response to the stress shores up their ability to adapt to still more stress. This process of bolstering cellular resilience is called hormesis—and a growing body of research indicates that it accounts for the health benefits of consuming fruits and vegetables. Understanding hormesis's effects may even provide new ways to prevent or treat some of the most devastating brain diseases, including Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and stroke.​

Hormesis is a possible benefit to eating plants, however, consuming plants on a regular basis still might have more negatives than pros, when it comes to our overall health. It still wouldn’t make sense to me to voluntarily consume something that I know has known toxins in it that do damage to our bodies when consumed, no matter how small or large the insult may be. Purposely causing small insults to my body, on a regular basis, does not seem like an appealing/ intelligent approach, if optimal health is the goal.

Yes, just like when u eat processed fast food, ur not going to feel any immediate negative effects to ur health. Eating vegetables isn’t going to cause acute, or chronic “toxicity” in most people. Does that mean that consuming plants on a regular basis isn’t contributing to negative health issues? No. They absolutely could still be contributing to negative health issues, even if the person doesn’t associate the vegetables in their diet to these issues. Idk how many times I’ve seen people with chronic digestive issues cut out vegetables, and then report that their digestive issues completely resolved, or improved greatly. And you can check out Jordan Peterson and Mikhaila Peterson’s experiences with plants. They both do full carnivore, I believe, and if they eat something as benign sounding as a salad, they experience the negative health issues that led them to needing to go on the carnivore diet in the first place. Which for both of them was mainly severe depression. Mikhaila Peterson also had very bad chronic joint pain her whole life, until she found the carnivore diet. They are both extreme cases, in regards to how strict they need to eat in order to have a normal quality of life, but they’re still good examples of what foods heal the body, and what foods hurt it. They’re both just extremely sensitive to food, and how it impacts their health/ well being, so they see the effects of food, good or bad, faster than most people, after consuming it

On top of plant toxins, u have to consider the anti-nutrients in plants/ legumes/ seeds, nuts and most grains, for some examples. These anti-nutrients can bind to micronutrients, and prevent them from being absorbed in our digestive tract. Then u also have goitrogens to worry about, in certain vegetables.

Then u have plant defense chemicals/ toxins like oxalates to worry about, when consuming plants. This is a compound that u definitely want to avoid in moderate to high dosages on a regular basis. Sally K Norton is a great source of info on the dangers of consuming too many oxalates, on a regular basis

 

[t_spacemonkey]

Hormesis is a possible benefit to eating plants, however, consuming plants on a regular basis still might have more negatives than pros, when it comes to our overall health. It still wouldn’t make sense to me to voluntarily consume something that I has known toxins in it that do damage to our bodies when consumed, no matter how small or large the insult may be. Purposely causing small insults to my body, on a regular basis, does not seem like an appealing/ intelligent approach, if optimal health is the goal.

Yes, just like when u eat processed fast food, ur not going to feel any immediate negative effects to ur health. Eating vegetables isn’t going to cause acute, or chronic “toxicity” in most people. Does that mean that consuming plants on a regular basis isn’t contributing to negative health issues? No. They absolutely could still contributing to negative health issues, even if the person doesn’t associate the vegetables in their diet to these issues. Idk how many times I’ve seen people with chronic digestive issues cut out vegetables, and then report that their digestive issues completely resolved, or improved greatly. And you can check out Jordan Peterson and Mikhaila Peterson’s experiences with plants. They both do full carnivore, I believe, and if they eat something as benign sounding as a salad, they experience the negative health issues that led them to needing to go on the carnivore diet in the first place. Which for both of them was mainly severe depression. Mikhaila Peterson also had very bad chronic joint pain her whole life, until she found the carnivore diet. They are both extreme cases, in regards to how strict they need to eat in order to have a normal quality of life, but they’re still good examples of what foods heal the body, and what foods hurt it. They’re both just extremely sensitive to food, and how it impacts their health/ well being, so they see the effects of food, good or bad, faster than most people, after consuming it

On top of plant toxins, u have to consider the anti-nutrients in plants/ legumes/ seeds, nuts and most grains, for some examples. These anti-nutrients can bind to micronutrients, and prevent them from being absorbed in our digestive tract. Then u also have goitrogens to worry about, in certain vegetables.

Then u have plant defense chemicals/ toxins like oxalates to worry about, when consuming plants. This is a compound that u definitely want to avoid in moderate to high dosages on a regular basis. Sally K Norton is a great source of info on the dangers of consuming too many oxalates, on a regular basis

I noticed this too. there is some veggies which give me instant digestive issues, farts, loose stools etc. things like broccoli, some roots, etc. while I eat them somewhat rarely, potatoes give me instant bloating/brain fog and a 3lb weight gain (prob not fat) which persists for 3 days after. most nuts = instant nasal congestion. I really narrowed it down to fruit/meat/honey at this point. rice seems to be the least offending, but then it ramps my cravings a bit too high. honey which is sugar doesn't do that - it stops them ironically

 

[Gman86]

I noticed this too. there is some veggies which give me instant digestive issues, farts, loose stools etc. things like broccoli, some roots, etc. while I eat them somewhat rarely, potatoes give me instant bloating/brain fog and a 3lb weight gain (prob not fat) which persists for 3 days after. most nuts = instant nasal congestion. I really narrowed it down to fruit/meat/honey at this point. rice seems to be the least offending, but then it ramps my cravings a bit too high. honey which is sugar doesn't do that - it stops them ironically

Ya I had an ex that had chronic digestive issues most of her adult life, and I had her cut out all veggies, and her gut issues drastically improved just from that one change

That’s interesting about the potatoes giving u brain fog and bloat. What kind of potatoes were u eating, and did u eat the skin? How were u cooking them? I’ve been trying to incorporate some white potato into my first meal of the day, to get some extra potassium in, but I do deal with Brian fog, so I might leave it out. Obv everyone reacts differently to different foods, but anytime I hear about something giving someone brain fog, whether it be food or a supplement, etc, it makes me think twice about eating/ taking it

I do eat white rice every day with my other two meals, and I know even white rice can cause people issues, but it’s a relatively cheap, and easy/ convenient way to get in some carbs that mostly turn into glucose, and refill muscle glycogen, opposed to carbs with a good amount of fructose, which refills liver glycogen before it fills muscle glycogen. So the white rice is helpful for gym related stuff. If I didn’t workout and care about gym performance/ building muscle easily, white rice would be completely eliminated from my diet. I know I’d feel better without it

And that’s interesting about nuts giving u nasal congestion. Nasal congestion is something i suffered with for a long time. Nose still isn’t 100% clear, but I had the turbinates in my nose lasered down a while back, which helped a bit. But I’m definitely weary about anything that could make nasal congestion worse. Only nuts I eat are 2 organic sprouted Brazil nuts per day, to get some extra selenium in.

But I do try to make the majority of my diet red meat, organic raw honey, and fruit

It is interesting how even whole foods can cause people to have poor reactions. Years ago I would have never thought that whole foods could be anything other than a 100% positive thing, 100% of the time. Was just watching this vid where the girl talks about going from a high protein/ fat and low carb diet, to lowering her fats and increasing her carbs to around 150-200g/ day. I believe she went from getting a small amount of carbs from fruit and dairy only, to adding another serving of fruit, and adding in rice and potatoes. But what was interesting is that she reported that instead of waking up with energy, she started waking up feeling hungover, and needing around 3 hours to feel fully awake, after upping her carbs, even tho the extra carbs came from whole food sources. I’ll link the vid. She starts talking about it at 17:20 into the vid

And then I just watched a quick vid of Jordan Peterson talking about his experience going carnivore for the past 5 years, and he also mentions the experience his wife and daughter have had on it. Vid is worth the watch if anyone is interested