I think cataceous did this? Basically I was going to drop my trt to 80 mg a week from 112 ( TT 600, free T 235 (35-155), and add 25 mg enclomiphene and 500 much gonadorelin troches and check labs in a month. Good idea or horrible?
I was shooting for more natural feel to my trt but maybe it’s best to keep my trt and hcg but add some fsh to the mix? I’m looking for larger testicles as they are smaller even after I’ve been using hcg for yearsYes.
You do have a decent chance of getting some LH production. Subject results are more variable, perhaps depending on the effects enclomiphene has on estrogenic activity and whether this is good or bad for the individual. In the long run I'd aim for the lowest dose that gives decent results. In the short run the relatively high dose of 25 mg/day might speed up the restart.Pituitary restart while on TRT: promising initial results with GnRH plus enclomiphene
TL;DR: Over a period of seven weeks, treatment with GnRH and enclomiphene raised LH and FSH from around 0.1 mIU/mL to about 1.0 mIU/mL, even though TRT and hCG dosing were continued. Subjective results have been encouraging. I had written previously on the subject of GnRH suppression on TRT...www.excelmale.com
If you're saying those are 500 mcg troches of gonadorelin then ideally they would be split in a lot of pieces and used a few time a day. I only need 20 mcg per injected dose to see results. How efficient is troche absorption? 50%? If so this would say that 50 mcg doses might be adequate if there are enough of them. The Royal Medical Center results suggest that infrequent large doses can still work. But then your LH pulses are also infrequent, and it's not clear if there are subjective benefits from this.
Adding FSH can help with fertility and probably testicular volume, but I've seen nothing to suggest more general improvements in the TRT experience. While the data on GnRH are limited, there are at least some theoretical underpinnings to explain the possible benefits. I continue to use it because it does feel more natural—more like pre-hypogonadism than at any previous time on TRT. The perceived benefits include restored libido, reliable sexual function and better cognition.I was shooting for more natural feel to my trt but maybe it’s best to keep my trt and hcg but add some fsh to the mix? I’m looking for larger testicles as they are smaller even after I’ve been using hcg for years
Appreciate the advice! So you are saying do the trt test, gonadorelin and fsh and not use the enclomiphene?Adding FSH can help with fertility and probably testicular volume, but I've seen nothing to suggest more general improvements in the TRT experience. While the data on GnRH are limited, there are at least some theoretical underpinnings to explain the possible benefits. I continue to use it because it does feel more natural—more like pre-hypogonadism than at any previous time on TRT. The perceived benefits include restored libido, reliable sexual function and better cognition.
Another option for you is to add some FSH and also use the gonadorelin. This avoids the potential unpredictability of enclomiphene. You sacrifice making your own LH/FSH, but you're still effectively adding back three of the hormones suppressed by TRT, or four if you include the testosterone itself (gonadorelin->GnRH, hCG->LH, FSH->FSH, T->T). One can continue down this path of restoration by investigating the effects of progesterone, kisspeptin and oxytocin.
I would include low doses of hCG in that, since you won't be making your own LH. I think it's a reasonable thing to try. I didn't go this route because I was trying to get away from using hCG. But it's possible that this would be as good or better, given that you don't need to worry about the vagaries of enclomiphene. The main thing is to see if it's feasible to take fairly frequent, small doses of gonadorelin to better mimic nature.... So you are saying do the trt test, gonadorelin and fsh and not use the enclomiphene?
Yes it's possible
Change to transdermal EOD
Put some Clomid
Will recover in some months
It's possible that the right kisspeptin protocol would stimulate reasonable production of GnRH, making gonadorelin redundant. However, if you want endogenous LH and FSH then you still have to deal with negative feedback from estrogens at the pituitary; a SERM is probably necessary.What about a combo of kisspeptin and gonadorelin in addition to a lower trt test dose?
Not at all. Test EOD works well, the EOD is only in the bloodstream, the molecule of test bind to the androgen receptor and works for some days. You won't even feel different between the day you use or not.Theoretically I can see this working, but does a guy then have to live life one day on one day off?
It seems to me this is not too dissimilar from the popular EOD propionate protocols. Some people strongly prefer it over ED propionate and talk about better libido.Theoretically I can see this working, but does a guy then have to live life one day on one day off?
Just clarifying because I’ve never heard of this before….is this done in an effort to eventually get off TRT, or is this the actual protocol…?Yes it's possible
Change to transdermal EOD
Put some Clomid
Will recover in some months
I heard Dr Kominiarek say he has some patients who do better on scrotal cream EOD, but he didn’t give any particulars. I don’t see how that doesn’t lead to big peaks and troughs, but what the hell do I know….I’m still trying to figure this shit out after 12 years….It seems to me this is not too dissimilar from the popular EOD propionate protocols. Some people strongly prefer it over ED propionate and talk about better libido.
It certainly would lead to big peaks and troughs, just like EOD propionate would. As Dr VPC said above though, the effects of the hormones on symptoms, well-being, etc doesn't perfectly track blood levels. Think about how long it takes some guys that quit cold turkey to start feeling withdrawal.I heard Dr Kominiarek say he has some patients who do better on scrotal cream EOD, but he didn’t give any particulars. I don’t see how that doesn’t lead to big peaks and troughs, but what the hell do I know….I’m still trying to figure this shit out after 12 years….
Can be done in both situations .Just clarifying because I’ve never heard of this before….is this done in an effort to eventually get off TRT, or is this the actual protocol…?
Can be done in both situations .
Note that not every testicle responds well to serm stimulation , and some can handle higher test cream dosages without supression of the axis than others.
Test EOD works well, the EOD is only in the bloodstream, the molecule of test bind to the androgen receptor and works for some days. You won't even feel different between the day you use or not.