Perhaps we shouldn’t be using “normal” ranges on Nandrolone based HRT is what I’m saying. Since those ranges were established from natural men with normal biochemistry (T,DHT,E2). I would pay attention to lipids, kidney, liver, CRP, BP, prolactin, inflammation, insulin sensitivity, skin, hair, wellbeing, joints. And leave micromanagement of sex hormones numbers at the door.
Im on 200mg of nandrolone, along with low dose test and HCG. When this vial of HCG runs out, I’m going to wait 2 weeks before reconstituting my other vial. Want to just see how I feel on nandrolone and test without the HCG.
Dr. Thomas stated it best when he said that Taiean Clark is an absolute moron. He is nothing short of just that. Writing is at the level of a 6th grader, logic is about that of a 14-year-old.
What is interesting is how hypotheses (don't get me wrong, I love a good/informed hypothesis) continue to circle around regarding potential effects of nandrolone of E2 (either it's too low even while using T concomitantly, or it's too high-not on blood assay but existing E2 is amplified in potency at the receptor, blah blah blah) and those hypotheses being actively used to change individual's approaches to cycles.
The reason that is interesting and at the same time somewhat comical to me is that we continue to discuss HRT and potential side effects in a linear fashion (i.e. when I took X it caused Y, so X must be the source of the issue). We tend to forget that the body is composed of highly interdependent systems and organs within those systems, and that linear/reductionistic explanations rarely demonstrate the true etiology.
Take all the theories thrown around here: (1) Deca causes ED because of low E2 (2) Deca causes ED because of enhanced potency of existing E2 at the receptor (3) DHT is needed for nitric-oxide mediation erectile function (actually research-based) (4) Deca causes ED because of the antagonistic relationship that progesterone has on estrogen (5) etc.
Each of these hypotheses could have some degree of merit, but none of them anecdotally fully explain the occuranec of ED while taking T & N concomitantly.
Take this study for example: Nandrolone decanoate relieves joint pain in hypogonadal men: a novel prospective pilot study and review of the literature
Dr. Lipshultz posted a novel study using nandrolone with his patients at the Baylor College of Medicine wherein 48 men (who were currently taking TRT) were all placed on 200 mg of T and 100 mg of nandrolone. The study can be found below. What's interesting is that none of the study's participants noted adverse effects such as ED, so the hypothesis that any T added to N will cause ED is out the window.
However, the study does state that in some men nandrolone is reported to cause ED (not in the participant group), and hypotheses are offered.
I will tell you as a patient of Dr. Lipshultz, he has confirmed that some men he places on Deca for joint pain do complain of ED, while others have no issue. He has not found any correlation between E2, progesterone, TT, Free T, DHT v DHN, etc. that would explain the occurrence of ED that could be generalizable.
Link: Nandrolone decanoate relieves joint pain in hypogonadal men: a novel prospective pilot study and review of the literature
Then, anecdotally, you have some bodybuilders who take 300 test and 200 of deca weekly, and report no issues. Then you have a guy like me who takes 200 mg T and 100 Deca weekly and I experience profound ED and depression. You have bodybuilders who take 500 of Deca only and report they feel like crap. Then you have bodybuilders who take the same dosage of Deca only (or similar) and they report that it's the holy grail.
Taking all of this into consideration, the most likely explanation, given the available research and anecdotes, is that the occurrence of ED during T & N administration is likely to be caused from individual differences in genetics and subsequently the varying responses to medications that those individual differences bring. Anything further explanation, at this point, is mere speculation with no data (clinical or empirical) to establish true confidence.
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Dr.V.P.C.
Member
There is some anedoctal info that 19-nors can influence the periferial nerves ( pudding-perineum nerves ) related to erection , in some men .
I beleive this truly can occur , and can be the reason more than all this hormonal - androgen/e2 ratio - prolactin theories.
I have seen lots of men with high libido but with erectly disfuncion in 19 nors with various hormone profiles.
I beleive this truly can occur , and can be the reason more than all this hormonal - androgen/e2 ratio - prolactin theories.
I have seen lots of men with high libido but with erectly disfuncion in 19 nors with various hormone profiles.
Thanks for posting.
Very interesting hypothesis.
What led to the conclusion in these men that the likely etiology results from dysfunction of the pudendal nerve?
Intriguing nonetheless. Thanks for posting/sharing.
that's very valid.
In the study below, nandrolone (150mg e14d) improved quality of life and fared better in various aspects of sex function compared to placebo, but not 100% bulletproof.
A Randomized, Placebo-Controlled Trial of Nandrolone Decanoate in Human Immunodeficiency Virus-Infected Men with Mild to Moderate Weight Loss with Recombinant Human Growth Hormone as Active Reference Treatment
Objective: We compared the effectiveness of a biweekly regimen of 150 mg nandrolone with placebo in HIV-infected men with mild to moderate weight loss and contr
academic.oup.com
this second study also showed better quality of life but didn't assess sex function specifically. Plus 250mg Test e14d may be a poor protocol, depending on patients' SHBG status.
Therapeutic effects of nandrolone and testosterone in adult male HIV patients with AIDS wasting syndrome (AWS): a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial - PubMed
Our trial demonstrates the superior therapeutic effects of nandrolone in male AWS patients, including the androgen deficient.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Lastly, this one reported no significant difference vs placebo (increased libido in 2 subjects)
Another personal hypothesis - Erectile dysfunction might be a matter of blood pressure / blood flow, which circles back to the androgen theory (or is it E2?). I've had ED naturally, whenever I was eating high fat / keto diets, like clockwork. I reckon this is user dependent. My LDL was sky high every time, not everyone has this issue on high fat diets. Nandrolone makes me mega insulin sensitive: I've found it pairs up really well with a very low fat diet (with enough omegas 3/6/9). And a very low fat diet is a great option for blood flow - again, probably my genetics.
that's very valid.
In the study below, nandrolone (150mg e14d) improved quality of life and fared better in various aspects of sex function compared to placebo, but not 100% bulletproof.
A Randomized, Placebo-Controlled Trial of Nandrolone Decanoate in Human Immunodeficiency Virus-Infected Men with Mild to Moderate Weight Loss with Recombinant Human Growth Hormone as Active Reference Treatment
Objective: We compared the effectiveness of a biweekly regimen of 150 mg nandrolone with placebo in HIV-infected men with mild to moderate weight loss and contr
this second study also showed better quality of life but didn't assess sex function specifically. Plus 250mg Test e14d may be a poor protocol, depending on patients' SHBG status.
Therapeutic effects of nandrolone and testosterone in adult male HIV patients with AIDS wasting syndrome (AWS): a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial - PubMed
Our trial demonstrates the superior therapeutic effects of nandrolone in male AWS patients, including the androgen deficient.
Lastly, this one reported no significant difference vs placebo (increased libido in 2 subjects)
Another personal hypothesis - Erectile dysfunction might be a matter of blood pressure / blood flow, which circles back to the androgen theory (or is it E2?). I've had ED naturally, whenever I was eating high fat / keto diets, like clockwork. I reckon this is user dependent. My LDL was sky high every time, not everyone has this issue on high fat diets. Nandrolone makes me mega insulin sensitive: I've found it pairs up really well with a very low fat diet (with enough omegas 3/6/9). And a very low fat diet is a great option for blood flow - again, probably my genetics.
Nandrolone increasing ur insulin sensitivity lines up with what Dr. Lichten has said. He says nandrolone is one of the best AAS to improve insulin sensitivity, and lower glucose levels. Much better than testosterone, from what he says. Which is a bold statement, considering we all know that testosterone is definitely a great AAS to improve insulin sensitivity and lower glucose levels.
How did u know that nandrolone greatly improved ur insulin sensitivity?
And how does a low fat diet improve blood flow?
@benaoao Thanks for posting these. Great studies.that's very valid.
In the study below, nandrolone (150mg e14d) improved quality of life and fared better in various aspects of sex function compared to placebo, but not 100% bulletproof.
A Randomized, Placebo-Controlled Trial of Nandrolone Decanoate in Human Immunodeficiency Virus-Infected Men with Mild to Moderate Weight Loss with Recombinant Human Growth Hormone as Active Reference Treatment
Objective: We compared the effectiveness of a biweekly regimen of 150 mg nandrolone with placebo in HIV-infected men with mild to moderate weight loss and contr
this second study also showed better quality of life but didn't assess sex function specifically. Plus 250mg Test e14d may be a poor protocol, depending on patients' SHBG status.
Therapeutic effects of nandrolone and testosterone in adult male HIV patients with AIDS wasting syndrome (AWS): a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial - PubMed
Our trial demonstrates the superior therapeutic effects of nandrolone in male AWS patients, including the androgen deficient.
Lastly, this one reported no significant difference vs placebo (increased libido in 2 subjects)
Another personal hypothesis - Erectile dysfunction might be a matter of blood pressure / blood flow, which circles back to the androgen theory (or is it E2?). I've had ED naturally, whenever I was eating high fat / keto diets, like clockwork. I reckon this is user dependent. My LDL was sky high every time, not everyone has this issue on high fat diets. Nandrolone makes me mega insulin sensitive: I've found it pairs up really well with a very low fat diet (with enough omegas 3/6/9). And a very low fat diet is a great option for blood flow - again, probably my genetics.
So in the first study, it is clear that the nandrolone treatment group was not concomitantly administered Testosterone. The reported results demonstrating better sexual function of the nandrolone group versus placebo over the 12-week period is interesting and does give some merit to the notion that perhaps in some individuals using nandrolone as a base for TRT may work well.
In the second study where the results report that the nandrolone treatment group saw a greater increase in QOL versus both the Testerone treatment group and placebo, they do not include the criteria they are using to measure QOL aside from weight and BMI (keeping in mind these are patients with wasting syndrome). I'd be curious to know if sexual function was assessed in QOL scores.
The third study actually reported, "...and increased libido by 2 nandrolone study subjects (no significant differences, nandrolone versus placebo)." So no actual statistic difference in libido was determined in this study.
Tren and Deca are not considered to be comparable in terms of side effect profiles. Nandrolone has been used safely in long-term treatment of HIV patients with wasting syndromes at doses of 50-200 mg per week. Dr. Thomas O'Connell did not report in his videos (I have watched nearly all of them) that Deca was an extremely toxic anabolic steroid. He actually expresses significant caution to using any oral steroid or Tren, and states that the safest (relatively speaking) are primo, EQ, and Masteron. However, we know, and he has stated, that Masteron has significant negative side effects on lipids because of its anti-estrogenic effects; much more of a negative effect than nandrolone.
Clinically, nandrolone is considered one of the safest anabolic steroids to use, aside from testosterone.
Nandrolone decanoate relieves joint pain in hypogonadal men: a novel prospective pilot study and review of the literature
Testosterone is an archetypal androgenic-anabolic steroid (AAS), while its exogenous administration is considered to be the gold standard for the treatment of male hypogonadism. The benefits are not due to its intrinsic nature alone but are due to the ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
"Nandrolone has been shown to possess a generally favorable side effect profile compared to most other AAS. Although any androgenic stimulation of the hair follicle and sebaceous sweat glands may result in alopecia, hirsutism, and acne, nandrolone’s weak androgenic activity makes these side effects uncommon (28). As an injectable oil, nandrolone is not subject to first-pass hepatic metabolism and is not hepatotoxic. Interestingly, although not well-described in the literature, some users of nandrolone have complained of temporary ED that resolves with cessation of therapy (13). This anecdotal side effect appears to be highly dependent on nandrolone dosage and the use or absence of concomitant testosterone. Although further studies regarding this are needed, plausible mechanisms for this include the insufficient androgenic activity of nandrolone itself and negative-feedback induced suppression of the HPG axis resulting in both reduced testosterone and DHT, the latter of which crucial to nitric-oxide mediated erectile function (13,29). Interference with the HPG axis also poses a significant risk to fertility and may risk the possibility for hypogonadism with long-term use in men who are not already testosterone deficient (30).
It is important to note that the majority of the literature, which describes the adverse effects of nandrolone, does so in the setting of illicit AAS abuse (11,31,32). This patient population is notorious for utilizing very high doses of AAS and is fraught with polypharmacy. Thus, the usefulness of extrapolating these studies’ findings to appropriate medical therapy with nandrolone is extremely limited (33). In human studies, illicit, long-term AAS abuse has been associated with cardiovascular complications, such as cardiomyopathy and coronary artery disease (34,35). In rat models using approximately 20× the doses of nandrolone used clinically; cardiomyopathy has also been observed (36-38). It is unclear to what extent, if any, these risks would apply to nandrolone administration at a more reasonable dosage in a clinical setting. Thus far, the controlled clinical trials of nandrolone have been too small and too sparse to confidently assess the risks of physician-prescribed and monitored nandrolone treatment at appropriate dosing."
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There’s also this study I’d like to share, although their assessment of androgenic potency may or may not be the be all end all methodology...
Different Binding of Testosterone, 19-nortestosterone and Their 5 Alpha-Reduced Derivatives to the Androgen Receptor of the Rat Seminal Vesicle: A Step Toward the Understanding of the Anabolic Action of Nortesterone - PubMed
Wherein DHN seems to be as “androgenic” as testosterone itself? I’m not sure what to think of this. Would that make Deca solo (let’s say 150mg/wk) as androgenic (albeit more anabolic) as Test 150 with Dutasteride?
If you hadn’t seen this other study, even 65mg per week induced massive nitrogen retention in subjects who were eating “only” 1.5 g/kg of protein daily. Overall better gains mg for mg, compared to test. Might as well go for 200 mg/wk though
Effects of Nandrolone Decanoate Therapy in Borderline Hypogonadal Men With HIV-associated Weight Loss - PubMed
Different Binding of Testosterone, 19-nortestosterone and Their 5 Alpha-Reduced Derivatives to the Androgen Receptor of the Rat Seminal Vesicle: A Step Toward the Understanding of the Anabolic Action of Nortesterone - PubMed
Wherein DHN seems to be as “androgenic” as testosterone itself? I’m not sure what to think of this. Would that make Deca solo (let’s say 150mg/wk) as androgenic (albeit more anabolic) as Test 150 with Dutasteride?
If you hadn’t seen this other study, even 65mg per week induced massive nitrogen retention in subjects who were eating “only” 1.5 g/kg of protein daily. Overall better gains mg for mg, compared to test. Might as well go for 200 mg/wk though
Effects of Nandrolone Decanoate Therapy in Borderline Hypogonadal Men With HIV-associated Weight Loss - PubMed
This comes from the very biased, cherry picked science showcased by Dr.Greger on his channel. I hate the guy but I can’t deny published visuals that happen to align with my experience eating certain macros over others.
Scans 3 minutes in, if you can’t stand his voice
I didn’t do an OGTT to assess insulin sensitivity, I’m going by feel here. You can totally eat fat free starch all day and feel amazing, look pumped, north of 500g of carbs daily and wake up with blood glucose in the 70s (I do have a glucose monitor). My last HBA1c was
5.4%, I guess another bloodwork is due in 90 days.
There’s also this study I’d like to share, although their assessment of androgenic potency may or may not be the be all end all methodology...
Different Binding of Testosterone, 19-nortestosterone and Their 5 Alpha-Reduced Derivatives to the Androgen Receptor of the Rat Seminal Vesicle: A Step Toward the Understanding of the Anabolic Action of Nortesterone - PubMed
Wherein DHN seems to be as “androgenic” as testosterone itself? I’m not sure what to think of this. Would that make Deca solo (let’s say 150mg/wk) as androgenic (albeit more anabolic) as Test 150 with Dutasteride?
If you hadn’t seen this other study, even 65mg per week induced massive nitrogen retention in subjects who were eating “only” 1.5 g/kg of protein daily. Overall better gains mg for mg, compared to test. Might as well go for 200 mg/wk though
Effects of Nandrolone Decanoate Therapy in Borderline Hypogonadal Men With HIV-associated Weight Loss - PubMed
Another good study with interesting results.
"DHT = 1.00; nortestosterone = 0.32-0.4; testosterone = 0.1-0.2; DHN = 0.12....It is concluded that testosterone and 19-nortestosterone (which are equally good substrates for 5 alpha-reductase) are converted in the seminal vesicles to metabolites, of which DHT exhibits an affinity to the androgen receptor nearly one order of magnitude higher than that of DHN. On the other hand, in skeletal muscles that are practically devoid of 5 alpha-reductase activity, the 3-fold higher affinity of nortestosterone to the receptor, expectedly, results in a myotropic activity that is superior to that of testosterone."
So what is interesting and affirming from this study is that DHT has a significantly higher binding affinity for the androgen receptor compared to DHN, which demonstrates why DHT has a much strong ability to burn fat. However, DHN's effect in the skeletal muscle demonstrates nandrolones' higher myotropic effects. This study does much to reaffirm the lower androgenicity and higher anabolism experienced with nandrolone, and vice-versa for testosterone.
In addition to these physiological effects, both DHT and DHN will cross the blood-brain barrier (as testosterone and nandrolone both readily do) and cause varying neuropsychiatric effects; one of these effects potentially being a reduced feeling of manliness (with DHN compared to DHT). This is speculative as the brain is a highly complex organ and no studies regarding T & N investigate these effects. However, DHT is noted in the literature to bring about enhanced mood, libido, and cognitive function, so we do know that DHN plays an important role throughout the CNS.
I also like the 2nd study you posted regarding nitrogen retention. I can say from person experience that 125 mg of Deca (in addition to TRT) created significantly more nitrogen retention my muscles than did adding 125 mg of more T to my TRT. Less than 100 mg did very minimal. 50 did nothing that could be visually seen or felt (e.g. muscle fullness).
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It's crazy how you can have, on the one hand, research-based evidence from this guy showing potential evidence that low carb diets are suboptimal for arterial blood flow, and then have Dr. David Perlmutter, leading U.S. neurologist, write books like Grain Brain wherein he presents literally hundreds of studies backing lower carb higher fat diets and its effects on heart health, brain health, and overall physiological optimization. I do not know what to believe other than the research-based theory of 'calories-in, calories-out' for weight loss.This comes from the very biased, cherry picked science showcased by Dr.Greger on his channel. I hate the guy but I can’t deny published visuals that happen to align with my experience eating certain macros over others.
Scans 3 minutes in, if you can’t stand his voice
I didn’t do an OGTT to assess insulin sensitivity, I’m going by feel here. You can totally eat fat free starch all day and feel amazing, look pumped, north of 500g of carbs daily and wake up with blood glucose in the 70s (I do have a glucose monitor). My last HBA1c was
5.4%, I guess another bloodwork is due in 90 days.
I can say, though, that I personally feel better on a high fat, moderate protein, moderately low carb diet.
Rock H. Johnson
Active Member
I think why Deca Dick, could be in the mix of these 2 studies:
Just like everything else in the entire universe, the answer is most likely balance. Balance between all macros is most likely optimal. That balance will obv vary from person to person, and also depending on ur goals. If u have temporary goals, like losing weight, or training for a fitness event, drastically adjusting macros would make sense. But for the long haul, my money is on balance between all macros being the answer, if health/ longevity is your main goal.
Anyway to give the abridged version?
I've seen both studies and like them. Thanks for posting.
They are both, separately and jointly, good studies that provide some insight into why men may experience ED. However, it's speculation at this point because for every man who experiences issues with ED while on nandrolone, there's another who claims it's the best steroid out there.
If nitric-oxide bioavailability part of the equation, then perhaps genetics plays a role in susceptibility to endothelial tissue vasodilation.
Dopaminergic neurons and their effect within the limbic system, relating to libido, is not a simple correlation. Serotonin, dopamine, GABA, acetylcholine, norepinephrine, all play a role in mood and libido. The brain, being the most highly complex organ, is far from being fully understood. So while I agree that reduced density of dopaminergic neurons will likely play a negative role in both libido, mood, and cognition, the degree to which that will occur as well as what actual effect it would have cannot be stated confidently.
Regardless, I do believe you are right that reduced nitric oxide bioavailability and disruption within neurotransmitter function likely plays a role in some cases of erectile dysfunction while using nandrolone.
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