Libido low, low energy and motovation

[Wright5]

It’s been a while since last post. I’ve since left the clinic in my town and switched to Matrix
Ive been on 150mg test c split mon/thur with
500iu hcg split same no a/i for 12 weeks. Libido has improved some but it isn’t consistent, motivation for the gym is still really low. Diet is pretty good, plenty of water daily. I also take 25 mg dhea and preg daily. My eyes are dry and gunky most days
Skin is only slightly oily at times with some joint popping. If I take zinc 30 mg daily for 3-4 days my skin gets dry and more joints start popping. Trying to figure out if I need higher e2 to feel better or not??

 

[DixieWrecked]

Looks like your DHEA supplement may not be any good. What brand DHEA and pregnenolone are you taking?

High prolactin can make you lazy. When's he last time you orgasmed?

 

[Wright5]

Looks like your DHEA supplement may not be any good. What brand DHEA and pregnenolone are you taking?

High prolactin can make you lazy. When's he last time you orgasmed?

I believe they are both Enzymatic Therapy products. I don’t have issues with orgasim.
occasionally have either softer erection or it can fade.

 

[madman]

It’s been a while since last post. I’ve since left the clinic in my town and switched to Matrix
Ive been on 150mg test c split mon/thur with
500iu hcg split same no a/i for 12 weeks. Libido has improved some but it isn’t consistent, motivation for the gym is still really low. Diet is pretty good, plenty of water daily. I also take 25 mg dhea and preg daily. My eyes are dry and gunky most days
Skin is only slightly oily at times with some joint popping. If I take zinc 30 mg daily for 3-4 days my skin gets dry and more joints start popping. Trying to figure out if I need higher e2 to feel better or not??

You left out trough TT and more importantly FT level.

Seeing as your SHBG is only 25.6 nmol/L I would put money on it that your trough FT level is really high on your current protocol.....150 mg T/week split (75 mg every 3.5 days) + 500IU hCG twice weekly.

Keep in mind that your peak TT/FT/estradiol level will be higher.

Not everyone will fair well-running too high an FT level.

Where does your hemoglobin/hematocrit sit?

 

[DixieWrecked]

You left out trough TT and more importantly FT level.

Seeing as your SHBG is only 25.6 nmol/L I would put money on it that your trough FT level is really high on your current protocol.....150 mg T/week split (75 mg every 3.5 days) + 500IU hCG twice weekly.

Keep in mind that your peak TT/FT/estradiol level will be higher.

Not everyone will fair well-running too high an FT level.

Where does your hemoglobin/hematocrit sit?

It says at the top.

TT: 906
FT: 17.3

 

[madman]

It says at the top.

TT: 906
FT: 17.3

Missed that when I brought it up on the screen.....thanks!

 

[DixieWrecked]

I believe they are both Enzymatic Therapy products. I don’t have issues with orgasim.
occasionally have either softer erection or it can fade.

The reason I asked about your orgasms is because prolactin can elevate for a day or two after an orgasm.

 

[Cataceous]

If you didn't fast for 12 hours or abstain from sex for 24 hours before the prolactin test then the result can be pushed higher. Even so, in situations like these I suspect that hCG has thrown off your natural estrogen balance. The ratio of estradiol to testosterone is over 0.6%, at the top of the normal range. More importantly, if your body is used to a lower ratio then it may contribute to issues such as a prolactin level that is also unnatural for you.

Assuming your testosterone measurement was at trough, the peak values could be around 50% higher, over 1,300 ng/dL. At a minimum I would knock the testosterone dose down by a third, to 50 mg twice a week. If you opted for more frequent injections then I'd even suggest a lower overall dose eventually.

 

[madman]

You left out trough TT and more importantly FT level.

Seeing as your SHBG is only 25.6 nmol/L I would put money on it that your trough FT level is really high on your current protocol.....150 mg T/week split (75 mg every 3.5 days) + 500IU hCG twice weekly.

Keep in mind that your peak TT/FT/estradiol level will be higher.

Not everyone will fair well-running too high an FT level.

Where does your hemoglobin/hematocrit sit?

You are hitting a trough TT in the 900s and unfortunately your FT was tested using the piss poor direct immunoassay which is known to be inaccurate.

I would still put money on it that if you tested using an accurate assay your trough FT would be high-end.

The only way to know where your FT level truly sits is to have it tested using the most accurate assays such as the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration (next best).

Definitely would not use /rely upon the piss poor direct immunoassay when testing FT!

 

[madman]

Waste of money and time using/relying upon such assay when testing FT!

 

[Gman86]

I would drop everything but the test and switch to EOD injections. Do that for 4-6 weeks (6 weeks preferably), see how u feel and adjust ur dose if needed until u feel as dialed in as u can only test alone, and then add in HCG, DHEA and pregnenolone one at a time. I would first add HCG at 500iu’s per week at first, split into EOD injections preferably, or twice per week injections. Then see how u feel after 4-6 weeks. If everything’s going well u can bump ur dose up to 1000iu’s per week, and see if u feel better or worse after 4-6 weeks. If u feel better keep ur dose at 1000iu’s/ week, if u feel worse lower ur dose back down to 500iu’s/ week. Then u can mess with pregnenolone and DHEA after that, again one at a time, making sure to dial in on each compound before adding another.

It should be common knowledge at this point that u should never start off on anything more than just test alone, and dial in the best u can before adding in another compound. Then dial in that the best u can before adding another compound. NEVER adding more than one compound at a time. The chances of u feeling good while starting with Test, HCG, DHEA and pregnenolone all at the same time is like hitting the mega millions, just isn’t gonna happen. Do things smart and don’t leave them up to luck

 

[Wright5]

If you didn't fast for 12 hours or abstain from sex for 24 hours before the prolactin test then the result can be pushed higher. Even so, in situations like these I suspect that hCG has thrown off your natural estrogen balance. The ratio of estradiol to testosterone is over 0.6%, at the top of the normal range. More importantly, if your body is used to a lower ratio then it may contribute to issues such as a prolactin level that is also unnatural for you.

Assuming your testosterone measurement was at trough, the peak values could be around 50% higher, over 1,300 ng/dL. At a minimum I would knock the testosterone dose down by a third, to 50 mg twice a week. If you opted for more frequent injections then I'd even suggest a lower overall dose eventually.

I’ve done 50mg 2x per week , also 15mg ed. Both by themselves and felt worse. I added in the dhea and preg at that time. Both protocols were run 3 months. Moved up to 150 split twice and feel better but nowhere optimal. Hcg was added last. Can’t say I feel much different after adding the Hcg.

 

[Wright5]

I’ve done 50mg 2x per week , also 15mg ed. Both by themselves and felt worse. I added in the dhea and preg at that time. Both protocols were run 3 months. Moved up to 150 split twice and feel better but nowhere optimal. Hcg was added last. Can’t say I feel much different after adding the Hcg.

Also did 10mg Ed at one point as well. My hct sits around 46

 

[Wright5]

The reason I asked about your orgasms is because prolactin can elevate for a day or two after an orgasm.

Gotcha. Couldn’t say for sure if it had been 24 hrs before test but it has tended to be upper range all along

 

[Wright5]

I would drop everything but the test and switch to EOD injections. Do that for 4-6 weeks (6 weeks preferably), see how u feel and adjust ur dose if needed until u feel as dialed in as u can only test alone, and then add in HCG, DHEA and pregnenolone one at a time. I would first add HCG at 500iu’s per week at first, split into EOD injections preferably, or twice per week injections. Then see how u feel after 4-6 weeks. If everything’s going well u can bump ur dose up to 1000iu’s per week, and see if u feel better or worse after 4-6 weeks. If u feel better keep ur dose at 1000iu’s/ week, if u feel worse lower ur dose back down to 500iu’s/ week. Then u can mess with pregnenolone and DHEA after that, again one at a time, making sure to dial in on each compound before adding another.

It should be common knowledge at this point that u should never start off on anything more than just test alone, and dial in the best u can before adding in another compound. Then dial in that the best u can before adding another compound. NEVER adding more than one compound at a time. The chances of u feeling good while starting with Test, HCG, DHEA and pregnenolone all at the same time is like hitting the mega millions, just isn’t gonna happen. Do things smart and don’t leave them up to luck

All wasn’t started together. I’ve done lower doses. I’ve done ed and eod , 70mg weekly being the lowest. Preg was added then dhea Hcg being last. What was asked was about estrogen. Thinking I might need more since I can’t take zinc with any regularity with the exception of 10 mg per day. I haven’t read it anywhere but can high e2 cause joint cracking and low energy/motivation. I literally am not holding water in my extremities or have any itching or burning in my nipples. Just slightly oily forehead and face some days. I know dht can also cause oily skin.

 

[Gman86]

All wasn’t started together. I’ve done lower doses. I’ve done ed and eod , 70mg weekly being the lowest. Preg was added then dhea Hcg being last. What was asked was about estrogen. Thinking I might need more since I can’t take zinc with any regularity with the exception of 10 mg per day. I haven’t read it anywhere but can high e2 cause joint cracking and low energy/motivation. I literally am not holding water in my extremities or have any itching or burning in my nipples. Just slightly oily forehead and face some days. I know dht can also cause oily skin.

Never heard about elevated E2 causing joint cracking, but have heard about guys complaining of low energy/ motivation when their E2 is too high. But prolactin tends to follow E2, and prolactin has an inverse relationship with dopamine. So when prolactin increases, dopamine tends to decrease, and low energy/ motivation are clear signs of low dopamine. So I would blame those symptoms more on ur elevated prolactin than ur elevated E2. But E2 and prolactin tend to go hand and hand. They usually increase and decrease together.

I would still drop everything other than the test and switch to EOD injections. Then add in a compound one at a time. U just don’t know what’s causing u issues when ur on a ton of things. For instance, just DHEA alone tends to cause men more issues than benefits. So just the DHEA ur using could be the issue. On the Ray Peat forum they see a lot of success with very low dosing, around 5-10mg/ day. According to them 25mg/ day would be way overkill. So u really have to experiment to dial DHEA in, and who knows if u can even get it to work for u. But one thing is for certain, u have zero clue whether the DHEA ur taking is causing ur issues or not. Then pregnenolone is another compound that’s extremely hit or miss for guys. Some feel great on it, for some it completely ruins their experience on HRT. There’s different forms u have to consider, oral, sublingual and transdermal being the most popular ones. Then u have to figure out timing. Some say it can increase cortisol, and to take it in the morning, some say it lowers cortisol, and to take it in the evening or before bed. Then the dosages vary greatly. Some feel great on 5-10mg/ day, some need up to 200mg/ day to feel good. How do u know that ur on the correct form that works best for u, the correct dosage, and are taking it at the correct time? And then HCG can come with a host of problems. Increasing ur E2 and prolactin and possibly skewing ur Test to E2 ratios. How do u know that ur on the correct dose of HCG? Are u taking it at an optimal frequency? It’s extremely difficult to figure out the questions for even one of these compounds. Then when u have to factor in that ur taking all of them, it’s literally impossible to have any clue what to adjust to make u feel better. U haven’t even figured out the optimal dose and frequency of testosterone to take. Not trying to harass u or put u down or anything lol. Just do urself a favor and drop everything but the test and dial that it first. I know it feels like going backwards, but I promise u that starting from scratch and doing things the right way will save u a ton of money and time and aggravation in the future. Don’t continue making these very basic mistakes and chasing ur tail for months or even years to come. Do this the right way and slowly make progress in the right direction until u feel like ur fully dialed in, or at least dialed in to a point that ur comfortable with

 

[Wright5]

Never heard about elevated E2 causing joint cracking, but have heard about guys complaining of low energy/ motivation when their E2 is too high. But prolactin tends to follow E2, and prolactin has an inverse relationship with dopamine. So when prolactin increases, dopamine tends to decrease, and low energy/ motivation are clear signs of low dopamine. So I would blame those symptoms more on ur elevated prolactin than ur elevated E2. But E2 and prolactin tend to go hand and hand. They usually increase and decrease together.

I would still drop everything other than the test and switch to EOD injections. Then add in a compound one at a time. U just don’t know what’s causing u issues when ur on a ton of things. For instance, just DHEA alone tends to cause men more issues than benefits. So just the DHEA ur using could be the issue. On the Ray Peat forum they see a lot of success with very low dosing, around 5-10mg/ day. According to them 25mg/ day would be way overkill. So u really have to experiment to dial DHEA in, and who knows if u can even get it to work for u. But one thing is for certain, u have zero clue whether the DHEA ur taking is causing ur issues or not. Then pregnenolone is another compound that’s extremely hit or miss for guys. Some feel great on it, for some it completely ruins their experience on HRT. There’s different forms u have to consider, oral, sublingual and transdermal being the most popular ones. Then u have to figure out timing. Some say it can increase cortisol, and to take it in the morning, some say it lowers cortisol, and to take it in the evening or before bed. Then the dosages vary greatly. Some feel great on 5-10mg/ day, some need up to 200mg/ day to feel good. How do u know that ur on the correct form that works best for u, the correct dosage, and are taking it at the correct time? And then HCG can come with a host of problems. Increasing ur E2 and prolactin and possibly skewing ur Test to E2 ratios. How do u know that ur on the correct dose of HCG? Are u taking it at an optimal frequency? It’s extremely difficult to figure out the questions for even one of these compounds. Then when u have to factor in that ur taking all of them, it’s literally impossible to have any clue what to adjust to make u feel better. U haven’t even figured out the optimal dose and frequency of testosterone to take. Not trying to harass u or put u down or anything lol. Just do urself a favor and drop everything but the test and dial that it first. I know it feels like going backwards, but I promise u that starting from scratch and doing things the right way will save u a ton of money and time and aggravation in the future. Don’t continue making these very basic mistakes and chasing ur tail for months or even years to come. Do this the right way and slowly make progress in the right direction until u feel like ur fully dialed in, or at least dialed in to a point that ur comfortable with

Thanks for the time to go over this. Yeah it sounded scolding at times but I know typing out vs talking doesn’t always come out the same. So should I not worry about my low dhea s? I’ve got some P5P I’m starting for the prolactin. I’ll drop the preg also and see if anything changes.

 

[DixieWrecked]

Thanks for the time to go over this. Yeah it sounded scolding at times but I know typing out vs talking doesn’t always come out the same. So should I not worry about my low dhea s? I’ve got some P5P I’m starting for the prolactin. I’ll drop the preg also and see if anything changes.

If you quit the dhea and preg it probably won't impact you because judging from your blood the products are bunk. Not that that's a bad thing since you're wanting to simplify your protocol

 

[Gman86]

Thanks for the time to go over this. Yeah it sounded scolding at times but I know typing out vs talking doesn’t always come out the same. So should I not worry about my low dhea s? I’ve got some P5P I’m starting for the prolactin. I’ll drop the preg also and see if anything changes.

Haha definitely no scolding going on lol. I’m not that type of person. I would hold off on the P5P for now, and just drop the preg, DHEA and HCG and ur prolactin should come right down and u shouldn’t need anything to control it atm. P5P seems pretty benign at doses of 100mg or lower, but certain b vitamins cause a lot of issues when taken in isolation. I just worry that taking too much B6 could disrupt the balance between all the other b vitamins in ur system. But overall P5P seems pretty harmless from everything I’ve read, again if u keep the dose below 100mg, and ideally 50mg or lower. According to the Ray peat forum they don’t like doses above 25mg/ day.

In regards to ur low DHEA-S levels, it’s extremely common for men and women to get fully dialed in and feel amazing while having low DHEA-S levels. I’ve definitely seen way more men and women feel worse supplementing with DHEA compared to ones that felt good on it. Other than pregnenolone, DHEA seems to be the most hit or miss compound out of all the compounds used for HRT. Again, ime much more miss than hit for whatever reason. If I were u, it would be the last compound I try to dial in. I would try to dial in testosterone, HCG, pregnenolone, and thyroid (if needed) first

There’s also a chance that u can increase DHEA-S levels by taking pregnenolone, as well as HCG, so if u do end up dialing in with both of those compounds, ur DHEA-S levels might end up getting up into a healthy range

 

[Wright5]

Haha definitely no scolding going on lol. I’m not that type of person. I would hold off on the P5P for now, and just drop the preg, DHEA and HCG and ur prolactin should come right down and u shouldn’t need anything to control it atm. P5P seems pretty benign at doses of 100mg or lower, but certain b vitamins cause a lot of issues when taken in isolation. I just worry that taking too much B6 could disrupt the balance between all the other b vitamins in ur system. But overall P5P seems pretty harmless from everything I’ve read, again if u keep the dose below 100mg, and ideally 50mg or lower. According to the Ray peat forum they don’t like doses above 25mg/ day.

In regards to ur low DHEA-S levels, it’s extremely common for men and women to get fully dialed in and feel amazing while having low DHEA-S levels. I’ve definitely seen way more men and women feel worse supplementing with DHEA compared to ones that felt good on it. Other than pregnenolone, DHEA seems to be the most hit or miss compound out of all the compounds used for HRT. Again, ime much more miss than hit for whatever reason. If I were u, it would be the last compound I try to dial in. I would try to dial in testosterone, HCG, pregnenolone, and thyroid (if needed) first

There’s also a chance that u can increase DHEA-S levels by taking pregnenolone, as well as HCG, so if u do end up dialing in with both of those compounds, ur DHEA-S levels might end up getting up into a healthy range

Thank you again! That’s the plan now to drop all and try to get dialed in with Test You definitely helped me out with your knowledge and thoughts on products