Current Defy Medical Restart Protocol

[Ethan@50]

Does anyone know what the current Defy Medical restart protocol looks like? The most recent I could find was from 2021:

• STOP T Cyp
• BEGIN HCG 500 iu TIW x 2 weeks then stop
• BEGIN Enclomiphene 25mg by mouth Daily M-F x 12 weeks then stop
• CONT Anastrozole 0.2 mg twice weekly, discontinue at end of Enclomiphine cycle

Your next lab tests are due in 12 weeks

• Testosterone, Free, Direct with Total Testosterone LabCorp
• Estradiol, Sensitive (LC/MS) LabCorp
• Luteinizing Hormone (LH) LabCorp

I have only been on TRT for a month prior to which I was on HCG mono-therapy for 2 months. I was not taking HCG while on TRT (Kyzatrex) for a month. I imagine both the HCG mono-therapy and the subsequent Kyzatrex would have been suppressive to my natural LH production.

Do I need a restart protocol as intense as the one listed above or whatever the most recent restart protocol is? If not, could Nelson, madman or any other veterans here offer some input on what might be a suitable restart protocol for me? Thanks a lot!

 

[madman]

Does anyone know what the current Defy Medical restart protocol looks like? The most recent I could find was from 2021:

• STOP T Cyp
• BEGIN HCG 500 iu TIW x 2 weeks then stop
• BEGIN Enclomiphene 25mg by mouth Daily M-F x 12 weeks then stop
• CONT Anastrozole 0.2 mg twice weekly, discontinue at end of Enclomiphine cycle

Your next lab tests are due in 12 weeks

• Testosterone, Free, Direct with Total Testosterone LabCorp
• Estradiol, Sensitive (LC/MS) LabCorp
• Luteinizing Hormone (LH) LabCorp

I have only been on TRT for a month prior to which I was on HCG mono-therapy for 2 months. I was not taking HCG while on TRT (Kyzatrex) for a month. I imagine both the HCG mono-therapy and the subsequent Kyzatrex would have been suppressive to my natural LH production.

Do I need a restart protocol as intense as the one listed above or whatever the most recent restart protocol is? If not, could Nelson, madman or any other veterans here offer some input on what might be a suitable restart protocol for me? Thanks a lot!

What is the reason you are stopping T therapy and where did your TT/FT and SHBG level sit pre-TRT?

When it comes to recovery of the hpta duration on exogenous T and age will have a big impact.

Use of hCG with T therapy would be beneficial since hCG mimics LH which will keep the Leydig cells in the testes active producing some degree of ITT (intratesticular testosterone).

What is critical here is making sure the testes are responsive to the LH stimulation as in many cases when on TTh or abusing T/AAS if no hCG was used during this time then the Leydig cells become dormant and the seminiferous tubules shrink which results in testicular atrophy due to shutdown of the hpta and LH/FSH production. This results in the Leydig cells no longer producing endogenous testosterone and the Sertoli/germ cells no longer producing sperm.

You were on hCG solo for 2 months then switched over to a T only protocol using oral TU (Kyzatrex) which is dosed 2x daily preferably 12 hours between doses.

Although oral esterified TU whether (Jatenzo, Tlando or Kyzatrex) has a lesser impact on suppression of the hpta compared to short/medium/long-acting injectable T it will still have a strong impact on suppression of the hpta.

Seeing as you had only been on hCG solo for 2 months and oral TU for 1 month you would most likely be able to get away with stopping cold turkey without the use of PCT.

The oral TU will be out of your system fairly quick.

You should be able to bounce back fairly quick but you may still go through what we call the crash where you may feel shitty for a while.

No one can say for sure how you will react.

Just keep in mind that you will always go back to baseline and seeing as you are 40 years old it is highly unlikely you had stellar FT levels pre-TRT.

If I were in your shoes than I would just stop cold turkey and deal with the temporary crash which will most likely be short-lived.

If you are nervous about stopping cold turkey than the use of a serm (clomid/enclomiphene) would most likely suffice!

 

[madman]

Does anyone know what the current Defy Medical restart protocol looks like? The most recent I could find was from 2021:

• STOP T Cyp
• BEGIN HCG 500 iu TIW x 2 weeks then stop
• BEGIN Enclomiphene 25mg by mouth Daily M-F x 12 weeks then stop
• CONT Anastrozole 0.2 mg twice weekly, discontinue at end of Enclomiphine cycle

Your next lab tests are due in 12 weeks

• Testosterone, Free, Direct with Total Testosterone LabCorp
• Estradiol, Sensitive (LC/MS) LabCorp
• Luteinizing Hormone (LH) LabCorp

I have only been on TRT for a month prior to which I was on HCG mono-therapy for 2 months. I was not taking HCG while on TRT (Kyzatrex) for a month. I imagine both the HCG mono-therapy and the subsequent Kyzatrex would have been suppressive to my natural LH production.

Do I need a restart protocol as intense as the one listed above or whatever the most recent restart protocol is? If not, could Nelson, madman or any other veterans here offer some input on what might be a suitable restart protocol for me? Thanks a lot!

Your next lab tests are due in 12 weeks

• Testosterone, Free, Direct with Total Testosterone LabCorp
• Estradiol, Sensitive (LC/MS) LabCorp
• Luteinizing Hormone (LH) LabCorp

• Testosterone, Free, Direct with Total Testosterone LabCorp

This is wrong and Defy should know better than this when it comes to testing FT!

2024 and these guys are still out to lunch!

Unreal!

As I have stated numerous times on the forum over the years the only way to know where your FT level truly sits is to have it tested using what would be considered the most accurate assay the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis especially in cases of altered SHBG.

If you do not live in a country where you would have access to such then you would need to use/relyupon the linear law-of-mass action cFTV.

Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator

Just keep in mind it tends to overestimate slightly when compared against a standardized higher order reference method ED assay.

Nothing to fret about!

The direct immunoassay is known to be inaccurate let alone tends to underestimate FT and no one should be using/relying upon such!

This is the ED assay you should be using/relying upon when testing free testosterone!

Testosterone, Free (Equilibrium Dialysis) and Total, MS - Most Affordable and Accurate Test

Get an affordable and accurate testosterone test results with our Total Testosterone, M and Free (Equilibrium Dialysis) test. Visit DiscountedLabs.com for more information.

www.discountedlabs.com

This needs to be hammered in everyone's heads!

*FH concentrations are generally very low, requiring use of sensitive and specific techniques. Furthermore, special attention must be placed on the equilibrium between free and protein-bound hormone when separating and analyzing in vitro.

Comparability of Free Testosterone Measurements- Results of the Interlaboratory Study

https://academic.oup.com/clinchem/article/70/Supplement_1/hvae106.074/7760719 Assessment of free testosterone (FT) has been recommended as a biomarker for diagnosis and management of hypogonadism and female hyperandrogenism. Reliable laboratory measurements are essential for correctly...

www.excelmale.com

Age-stratified reference ranges for directly measured (ED LC-MS/MS) serum free testosterone in healthy men

Just to be clear up any confusion this is Fiers camps data for mFT reference ranges not the harmonized reference range being worked on by the CDC. *Serum samples were analyzed from healthy men participating in the SIBLOS/SIBEX and EMAS studies, both population-based cohort studies * mFT...

www.excelmale.com

Direct Measurements of Free Hormones Using Mass Spectrometry-Based Methods

Only at Excel, are we gonna take you deep! Clinical Utility and Analytical Aspects of Direct Measurements of Free Hormones Using Mass Spectrometry-Based Methods (2022) Mark M. Kushnir, Heather A. Nelson, and Kelly Doyle Background The free hormone (FH) hypothesis states that hormone...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Ethan@50]

What is the reason you are stopping T therapy and where did your TT/FT and SHBG level sit pre-TRT?

When it comes to recovery of the hpta duration on exogenous T and age will have a big impact.

Use of hCG with T therapy would be beneficial since hCG mimics LH which will keep the Leydig cells in the testes active producing some degree of ITT (intratesticular testosterone).

What is critical here is making sure the testes are responsive to the LH stimulation as in many cases when on TTh or abusing T/AAS if no hCG was used during this time then the Leydig cells become dormant and the seminiferous tubules shrink which results in testicular atrophy due to shutdown of the hpta and LH/FSH production. This results in the Leydig cells no longer producing endogenous testosterone and the Sertoli/germ cells no longer producing sperm.

You were on hCG solo for 2 months then switched over to a T only protocol using oral TU (Kyzatrex) which is dosed 2x daily preferably 12 hours between doses.

Although oral esterified TU whether (Jatenzo, Tlando or Kyzatrex) has a lesser impact on suppression of the hpta compared to short/medium/long-acting injectable T it will still have a strong impact on suppression of the hpta.

Seeing as you had only been on hCG solo for 2 months and oral TU for 1 month you would most likely be able to get away with stopping cold turkey without the use of PCT.

The oral TU will be out of your system fairly quick.

You should be able to bounce back fairly quick but you may still go through what we call the crash where you may feel shitty for a while.

No one can say for sure how you will react.

Just keep in mind that you will always go back to baseline and seeing as you are 40 years old it is highly unlikely you had stellar FT levels pre-TRT.

If I were in your shoes than I would just stop cold turkey and deal with the temporary crash which will most likely be short-lived.

If you are nervous about stopping cold turkey than the use of a serm (clomid/enclomiphene) would most likely suffice!

Prior to HCG mono-therapy:
TT = 565 (294-916)
Free T = 73 (52-280)
% Free = 1.3 (1.5-3.2)
SHBG = 57.6 (19.3 - 76.4)

After 2 months HCG mono-therapy at 500iu Monday/Thursday (1000iu week):
TT = 647 (294-916)
Free T = 91 (52-280)
% Free = 1.4 (1.5-3.2)
SHBG = 47.7 (19.3 - 76.4)

I was experiencing every hypogonadism symptom in the book so wanted to try this first. My TT was within range so I assumed my symptoms were due to low end Free T and below range % Free T. The only thing I felt from the HCG mono-therapy was extreme fatigue and tiredness. Nothing beneficial really.

I decided to try oral T Kyzatrex since it is supposed to be good for raising Free T and lowering SHBG, the two areas I need help with. I've been on 200mg BID for a month. All I have felt with the Kyzatrex is brain fog. Like it's harder for me to think clearly on it. Nothing beneficial. I thought after a month I would feel some benefit but I have not. I'm getting labs done next week after being on it for a month but going by how I feel I do not think I will continue. I have no idea if IM/SubQ T will make me feel any better than the Kyzatrex has. So I am thinking of coming off T altogether.

 

[Ethan@50]

Your next lab tests are due in 12 weeks

• Testosterone, Free, Direct with Total Testosterone LabCorp
• Estradiol, Sensitive (LC/MS) LabCorp
• Luteinizing Hormone (LH) LabCorp

• Testosterone, Free, Direct with Total Testosterone LabCorp

This is wrong and Defy should know better than this when it comes to testing FT!

2024 and these guys are still out to lunch!

Unreal!

As I have stated numerous times on the forum over the years the only way to know where your FT level truly sits is to have it tested using what would be considered the most accurate assay the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis especially in cases of altered SHBG.

If you do not live in a country where you would have access to such then you would need to use/relyupon the linear law-of-mass action cFTV.

Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator

Just keep in mind it tends to overestimate slightly when compared against a standardized higher order reference method ED assay.

Nothing to fret about!

The direct immunoassay is known to be inaccurate let alone tends to underestimate FT and no one should be using/relying upon such!

This is the ED assay you should be using/relying upon when testing free testosterone!

Testosterone, Free (Equilibrium Dialysis) and Total, MS - Most Affordable and Accurate Test

Get an affordable and accurate testosterone test results with our Total Testosterone, M and Free (Equilibrium Dialysis) test. Visit DiscountedLabs.com for more information.

www.discountedlabs.com

This needs to be hammered in everyone's heads!

*FH concentrations are generally very low, requiring use of sensitive and specific techniques. Furthermore, special attention must be placed on the equilibrium between free and protein-bound hormone when separating and analyzing in vitro.

Comparability of Free Testosterone Measurements- Results of the Interlaboratory Study

https://academic.oup.com/clinchem/article/70/Supplement_1/hvae106.074/7760719 Assessment of free testosterone (FT) has been recommended as a biomarker for diagnosis and management of hypogonadism and female hyperandrogenism. Reliable laboratory measurements are essential for correctly...

www.excelmale.com

Age-stratified reference ranges for directly measured (ED LC-MS/MS) serum free testosterone in healthy men

Just to be clear up any confusion this is Fiers camps data for mFT reference ranges not the harmonized reference range being worked on by the CDC. *Serum samples were analyzed from healthy men participating in the SIBLOS/SIBEX and EMAS studies, both population-based cohort studies * mFT...

www.excelmale.com

Direct Measurements of Free Hormones Using Mass Spectrometry-Based Methods

Only at Excel, are we gonna take you deep! Clinical Utility and Analytical Aspects of Direct Measurements of Free Hormones Using Mass Spectrometry-Based Methods (2022) Mark M. Kushnir, Heather A. Nelson, and Kelly Doyle Background The free hormone (FH) hypothesis states that hormone...

www.excelmale.com

Thank you madman. Very helpful!

 

[Systemlord]

Does anyone know what the current Defy Medical restart protocol looks like?

I have a great memory, 14 days of hCG @ 500 2-3 times a week, followed by 28 days of clomid.

 

[Ethan@50]

What is the reason you are stopping T therapy and where did your TT/FT and SHBG level sit pre-TRT?

When it comes to recovery of the hpta duration on exogenous T and age will have a big impact.

Use of hCG with T therapy would be beneficial since hCG mimics LH which will keep the Leydig cells in the testes active producing some degree of ITT (intratesticular testosterone).

What is critical here is making sure the testes are responsive to the LH stimulation as in many cases when on TTh or abusing T/AAS if no hCG was used during this time then the Leydig cells become dormant and the seminiferous tubules shrink which results in testicular atrophy due to shutdown of the hpta and LH/FSH production. This results in the Leydig cells no longer producing endogenous testosterone and the Sertoli/germ cells no longer producing sperm.

You were on hCG solo for 2 months then switched over to a T only protocol using oral TU (Kyzatrex) which is dosed 2x daily preferably 12 hours between doses.

Although oral esterified TU whether (Jatenzo, Tlando or Kyzatrex) has a lesser impact on suppression of the hpta compared to short/medium/long-acting injectable T it will still have a strong impact on suppression of the hpta.

Seeing as you had only been on hCG solo for 2 months and oral TU for 1 month you would most likely be able to get away with stopping cold turkey without the use of PCT.

The oral TU will be out of your system fairly quick.

You should be able to bounce back fairly quick but you may still go through what we call the crash where you may feel shitty for a while.

No one can say for sure how you will react.

Just keep in mind that you will always go back to baseline and seeing as you are 40 years old it is highly unlikely you had stellar FT levels pre-TRT.

If I were in your shoes than I would just stop cold turkey and deal with the temporary crash which will most likely be short-lived.

If you are nervous about stopping cold turkey than the use of a serm (clomid/enclomiphene) would most likely suffice!

Thanks madman. I really appreciate your advice. I like your idea of maybe just enclomiphene for a bit or cold turkey since I have not been on very long.

 

[Systemlord]

I decided to try oral T Kyzatrex since it is supposed to be good for raising Free T and lowering SHBG, the two areas I need help with. I've been on 200mg BID for a month. All I have felt with the Kyzatrex is brain fog.

I stopped Jatenzo today due to feeling dehydrated on the therapy. Jatenzo crashes my ferritin levels, forcing me to supplement iron which ends up dehydrating me. The only time I feel good Jatenzo when my iron ferritin levels are declining, but then I eventually run into the symptoms of iron deficiency.

I start supplementing again and the dehydration/brain fog returns.

I’m stopping cold turkey. I have to go to work (Amazon) in 30 minutes, lol!

I’m not going to remain in a constant state of dehydration and brain fog! I’m done!!

My new plans are as followed:

Plan A -> creatine, daily Cialis, carnivore diet, melatonin for sleep and the elimination of orange juice, replacing it with vitamin C drops. The creatine will counteract the low estrogen due to the Cialis.

The first time I went on creatine, I didn’t have any issues and I was on daily Cialis at the time and my response was unique and I was never better erection, energy and mental ability.

Months down the road my hemoglobin and hematocrit are significantly higher and I go back on the daily Cialis and creatine do not have the same response, quite the opposite.

If you take creatine when you’re already dehydrated, your muscles are going to cramp up, which is exactly what happened. The first time it took a while for the cramping to start up, indicating that even a 51% hematocrit (54.9% now) is too high for me.

I wish there was a type of testosterone treatment where I would peak in the morning at 450-500 and end up at 325 in the evening.

Plan B -> hCG

Plan C -> clomid

 

[Ethan@50]

I have a great memory, 14 days of hCG @ 500 2-3 times a week, followed by 28 days of clomid.

Thanks Systemlord. I know it is so weird. I thought this would be the perfect solution for me.

 

[Ethan@50]

I stopped Jatenzo today due to feeling dehydrated on the therapy. Jatenzo crashes my ferritin levels, forcing me to supplement iron which ends up dehydrating me. The only time I feel good Jatenzo when my iron ferritin levels are declining, but then I eventually run into the symptoms of iron deficiency.

I start supplementing again and the dehydration/brain fog returns. I’m stopping cold turkey. I have to go to work in 30 minutes!

I’m done!

My new plans are as followed:

Plan A -> creatine, daily Cialis, carnivore diet, and the elimination of orange juice, replacing it with vitamin C drops. The creatine will counteract the low estrogen due to the Cialis.

The first time I went on creatine, I didn’t have any issues and I was on daily Cialis at the time and my response was unique and I was never better erection, energy and mental ability.

Months down the road my hemoglobin and hematocrit are significantly higher and I go back on the daily Cialis and creatine do not have the same response.

If you take creatine when you’re already dehydrated, your muscles are going to cramp up, which is exactly what happened.

Plan B -> hCG

Plan C -> clomid

Very interesting! I wonder if that is what's happening to me too? Maybe it's more of an issue with the oral T formulations? Thanks for sharing this because it definitely sheds some light on possibly why I am not feeling well on it.

 

[madman]

Prior to HCG mono-therapy:
TT = 565 (294-916)
Free T = 73 (52-280)
% Free = 1.3 (1.5-3.2)
SHBG = 57.6 (19.3 - 76.4)

After 2 months HCG mono-therapy at 500iu Monday/Thursday (1000iu week):
TT = 647 (294-916)
Free T = 91 (52-280)
% Free = 1.4 (1.5-3.2)
SHBG = 47.7 (19.3 - 76.4)

I was experiencing every hypogonadism symptom in the book so wanted to try this first. My TT was within range so I assumed my symptoms were due to low end Free T and below range % Free T. The only thing I felt from the HCG mono-therapy was extreme fatigue and tiredness. Nothing beneficial really.

I decided to try oral T Kyzatrex since it is supposed to be good for raising Free T and lowering SHBG, the two areas I need help with. I've been on 200mg BID for a month. All I have felt with the Kyzatrex is brain fog. Like it's harder for me to think clearly on it. Nothing beneficial. I thought after a month I would feel some benefit but I have not. I'm getting labs done next week after being on it for a month but going by how I feel I do not think I will continue. I have no idea if IM/SubQ T will make me feel any better than the Kyzatrex has. So I am thinking of coming off T altogether.

Prior to HCG mono-therapy:
TT = 565 (294-916)
Free T = 73 (52-280)
% Free = 1.3 (1.5-3.2)
SHBG = 57.6 (19.3 - 76.4)


Yes even with a descent TT 565 ng/dL and highish SHBG 57.6 nmol/L your FT 7.3 ng/dL would be on the low-end.

Impressed here as you had your FT tested using an accurate assay which would be Labcorps Equilibrium Dialysis (reference range 52-280 pg/mL/5.2-28.0 ng/dL).

500726: Testosterone, Free, Mass Spectrometry/Equilibrium Dialysis (Endocrine Sciences) | Labcorp

Labcorp test details for Testosterone, Free, Mass Spectrometry/Equilibrium Dialysis (Endocrine Sciences)

www.labcorp.com

Even when using the calculated method the linear law-of-mass action cFTV would have your FT 8.3 ng/dL on the low-end!

I was experiencing every hypogonadism symptom in the book so wanted to try this first. My TT was within range so I assumed my symptoms were due to low end Free T and below range % Free T. The only thing I felt from the HCG mono-therapy was extreme fatigue and tiredness. Nothing beneficial really.

After 2 months HCG mono-therapy at 500iu Monday/Thursday (1000iu week):
TT = 647 (294-916)
Free T = 91 (52-280)
% Free = 1.4 (1.5-3.2)
SHBG = 47.7 (19.3 - 76.4)


Even with a robust TT 647 ng/dL and highish SHBG 47.7 nmol/L your FT 9.1 ng/dL is nothing to brag about!

Again I am impressed here as you had your FT tested one of the most accurate assays which would be Labcorps Equilibrium Dialysis (reference range 52-280 pg/mL/5.2-28.0 ng/dL).

Your weekly dose is most likely too low for hCG solo!

Should have at least tried a much higher dose.

Regardless most men do not fare well in the long-run and end up hopping on TRT!




I decided to try oral T Kyzatrex since it is supposed to be good for raising Free T and lowering SHBG, the two areas I need help with. I've been on 200mg BID for a month. All I have felt with the Kyzatrex is brain fog. Like it's harder for me to think clearly on it. Nothing beneficial. I thought after a month I would feel some benefit but I have not. I'm getting labs done next week after being on it for a month but going by how I feel I do not think I will continue. I have no idea if IM/SubQ T will make me feel any better than the Kyzatrex has. So I am thinking of coming off T altogether.

All that would matter here is driving up your TT which will drive up your FT.

Too many caught up on the supposedly needing to drive down SHBG, all you need to do is drive up your total which will raise your free!

Hope you understand that some men will need a much higher dose then the starting dose of 200mg twice daily in order to achieve a high enough TT/FT level.

Would need to know where your peak TT/FT level sat on such protocol.

Need to test at peak which would be 4-5 hrs post dose.

If anything I would wait on labs as you may very well be one who needs a dose increase before throwing in the towel!

KYZATREX (oral testosterone undecanoate) now available in all states across the US

Did you get any nasty side effects by the way? None. I am looking at all the warnings and one of them says increase risk of death. That's a load of sh**! There's an increase risk of death living life, like crossing the street. There's increase risk of death with any other medicines.

www.excelmale.com

Dose and impact of baseline characteristics.

The distribution of final doses is provided in Figure 3. The logistic regression analysis of the impact of baseline characteristics on final dose demonstrated that body weight and diabetic status were positively associated with higher final dose (⩽400, 600, or 800mg) with odds ratios of 3.928 (95% CI: 1.896–8.137) and 2.646 (95% CI: 1.111–6.300), respectively. In contrast, use of antihypertensive medication had no influence on final dose.




Figure 3. Final dose distributions after 90 days of treatment with KYZATREX

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Prior to HCG mono-therapy:
TT = 565 (294-916)
Free T = 73 (52-280)
% Free = 1.3 (1.5-3.2)
SHBG = 57.6 (19.3 - 76.4)

After 2 months HCG mono-therapy at 500iu Monday/Thursday (1000iu week):
TT = 647 (294-916)
Free T = 91 (52-280)
% Free = 1.4 (1.5-3.2)
SHBG = 47.7 (19.3 - 76.4)

I was experiencing every hypogonadism symptom in the book so wanted to try this first. My TT was within range so I assumed my symptoms were due to low end Free T and below range % Free T. The only thing I felt from the HCG mono-therapy was extreme fatigue and tiredness. Nothing beneficial really.

I decided to try oral T Kyzatrex since it is supposed to be good for raising Free T and lowering SHBG, the two areas I need help with. I've been on 200mg BID for a month. All I have felt with the Kyzatrex is brain fog. Like it's harder for me to think clearly on it. Nothing beneficial. I thought after a month I would feel some benefit but I have not. I'm getting labs done next week after being on it for a month but going by how I feel I do not think I will continue. I have no idea if IM/SubQ T will make me feel any better than the Kyzatrex has. So I am thinking of coming off T altogether.

It sounds like you are a good candidate for getting a workup from a good holistic/integrative doc if you can find one. Your issues could be due to some sort of infection, a nutrient issue, a diet issue, or some other issue (like poor sleep) which Testosterone cannot override. T levels could be some of the issue but it sounds like there is something else going on.

 

[Ethan@50]

Prior to HCG mono-therapy:
TT = 565 (294-916)
Free T = 73 (52-280)
% Free = 1.3 (1.5-3.2)
SHBG = 57.6 (19.3 - 76.4)


Yes even with a descent TT 565 ng/dL and highish SHBG 57.6 nmol/L your FT 7.3 ng/dL would be on the low-end.

Impressed here as you had your FT tested using an accurate assay which would be Labcorps Equilibrium Dialysis (reference range 52-280 pg/mL/5.2-28.0 ng/dL).

500726: Testosterone, Free, Mass Spectrometry/Equilibrium Dialysis (Endocrine Sciences) | Labcorp

Labcorp test details for Testosterone, Free, Mass Spectrometry/Equilibrium Dialysis (Endocrine Sciences)

www.labcorp.com

Even when using the calculated method the linear law-of-mass action cFTV would have your FT 8.3 ng/dL on the low-end!

View attachment 46032




I was experiencing every hypogonadism symptom in the book so wanted to try this first. My TT was within range so I assumed my symptoms were due to low end Free T and below range % Free T. The only thing I felt from the HCG mono-therapy was extreme fatigue and tiredness. Nothing beneficial really.

After 2 months HCG mono-therapy at 500iu Monday/Thursday (1000iu week):
TT = 647 (294-916)
Free T = 91 (52-280)
% Free = 1.4 (1.5-3.2)
SHBG = 47.7 (19.3 - 76.4)


Even with a robust TT 647 ng/dL and highish SHBG 47.7 nmol/L your FT 9.1 ng/dL is nothing to brag about!

Again I am impressed here as you had your FT tested one of the most accurate assays which would be Labcorps Equilibrium Dialysis (reference range 52-280 pg/mL/5.2-28.0 ng/dL).

Your weekly dose is most likely too low for hCG solo!

Should have at least tried a much higher dose.

Regardless most men do not fare well in the long-run and end up hopping on TRT!




I decided to try oral T Kyzatrex since it is supposed to be good for raising Free T and lowering SHBG, the two areas I need help with. I've been on 200mg BID for a month. All I have felt with the Kyzatrex is brain fog. Like it's harder for me to think clearly on it. Nothing beneficial. I thought after a month I would feel some benefit but I have not. I'm getting labs done next week after being on it for a month but going by how I feel I do not think I will continue. I have no idea if IM/SubQ T will make me feel any better than the Kyzatrex has. So I am thinking of coming off T altogether.

All that would matter here is driving up your TT which will drive up your FT.

Too many caught up on the supposedly needing to drive down SHBG, all you need to do is drive up your total which will raise your free!

Hope you understand that some men will need a much higher dose then the starting dose of 200mg twice daily in order to achieve a high enough TT/FT level.

Would need to know where your peak TT/FT level sat on such protocol.

Need to test at peak which would be 4-5 hrs post dose.

If anything I would wait on labs as you may very well be one who needs a dose increase before throwing in the towel!

KYZATREX (oral testosterone undecanoate) now available in all states across the US

Did you get any nasty side effects by the way? None. I am looking at all the warnings and one of them says increase risk of death. That's a load of sh**! There's an increase risk of death living life, like crossing the street. There's increase risk of death with any other medicines.

www.excelmale.com

Dose and impact of baseline characteristics.

The distribution of final doses is provided in Figure 3. The logistic regression analysis of the impact of baseline characteristics on final dose demonstrated that body weight and diabetic status were positively associated with higher final dose (⩽400, 600, or 800mg) with odds ratios of 3.928 (95% CI: 1.896–8.137) and 2.646 (95% CI: 1.111–6.300), respectively. In contrast, use of antihypertensive medication had no influence on final dose.




Figure 3. Final dose distributions after 90 days of treatment with KYZATREX
View attachment 46033

Invaluable information madman. I really appreciate it. Makes sense regarding driving up total T to raise Free T as opposed to putting too much emphasis on lowering SHBG. You've given me some hope here. I get my labs drawn on Monday and I'll make sure to take my morning dose 4-5 hours before I do the labs. I'll report back once I receive the results. The Free T can take a while to get back I've noticed but will post as soon as I get them and would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks again!

 

[Systemlord]

Very interesting! I wonder if that is what's happening to me too?

No crash all day.

 

[Charliebizz]

After countless years of trying restarts and staying “natural” it was all for nothing. I’ve went off trt cold turkey a few times. And didn’t feel any better using restart protocols . a lot of times you end up feeling worse using clomid and such. If your commuting to getting off trt just get off. You will bounce back to pre trt levels in a few weeks. At least in my personal experience. The problem is a lot of guys don’t realize they actually do feel better on trt till they actually come off lol.

 

[Systemlord]

You will bounce back to pre trt levels in a few weeks.

I’ve gone 4 days without Jatenzo. I have a few days before I return to baseline or possibly higher.

My Experience On Jatenzo (Oral TRT) Log

 

[Ethan@50]

Finally got my lab results back after being on Kyzatrex 200mg BID for a month, no HCG:

Prior to HCG mono-therapy:
TT = 565 (294-916)
Free T = 73 (52-280)
% Free = 1.3 (1.5-3.2)
SHBG = 57.6 (19.3 - 76.4)

After 2 months HCG mono-therapy at 500iu Monday/Thursday (1000iu week):
TT = 647 (294-916)
Free T = 91 (52-280)
% Free = 1.4 (1.5-3.2)
SHBG = 47.7 (19.3 - 76.4)

After one month on Kyzatrex 200mg BID, no HCG. Labs taken 4 hours after morning dose:
TT = 419 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T = 66.8 (35.0-155.0 pg/mL)

So my TT and Free T levels are lower now after being on the Kyzatrex for a month then they were when I was on nothing at all, and also lower then when I was taking HCG mono-therapy. The only conclusion I can draw is the Kyzatrex dose is too low to raise my TT and Free T levels high enough on its own, while causing suppression of my natural testosterone at the same time. Definitely not the desired effect I was hoping for. Maybe I need 300mg or 400mg BID?

Since I have only felt more fatigue and brain fog on the Kyzatrex, I also tested my thyroid levels to see if the Kyzatrex was effecting that. Here are those results:

TSH = 0.67 (0.40-4.50)
Free T4 = 1.2 (0.8-1.8)
Free T3 = 3.1 (2.3-4.2)

Thyroid Lab Results From September 2023:

TSH = 1.09 (0.45-4.5)
Free T4 = 1.30 (0.82-1.77)
Free T3 = 3.1 (2.0-4.4)

So on the Kyzatrex, my TSH and Free T4 went down a bit, and T3 was unchanged. This could just be a normal fluctuation and nothing to do with the Kyzatrex since I take thyroid hormone replacement due to hypothyroidism.

I might test my iron/ferritin levels next to see if the Kyzatrex is making me anemic and maybe that's what is causing the increased feeling of fatigue and brain fog. So there you have it. Thoughts would be appreciated!

 

[RocknRolLovinguy]

Hi everyone,

I'm hoping to get some advice on Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) after my current cycle.

Current Cycle (12 Weeks):

• Testosterone (Sustanon): 250mg/week
• Deca Durabolin: 100mg/week (weeks 1-11 only)
• Dianabol: 10mg/day (on and off for 2 weeks pre-workout, totaling 6 weeks on and 6 weeks off)

Current Status:

• Week 11 of cycle
• Gained 7-8kg

Plan:

• Take a 2-month break after this cycle to let my body recover.
• Restart the same cycle (Test + Deca) after the 2-month break.

Question:

Given that I'll be restarting the cycle soon, do I still need PCT? If so, which option would be best: Clomid, Nolvadex (Tamoxifen), or HCG?

Additional Info:

I have access to Clomid, Nolvadex (Tamoxifen), and HCG for PCT.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

My two cents...I wouldn't even think about another "cycle" until you've gotten back to steady state for at least 6 months. Deca is long-acting and you should have stopped it already. NPP would have been a better choice. You should have been using HCG throughout. Use clomid or nolva at moderate doses for 6 weeks. The problem with what you're doing is that you may recover well or you may have messed yourself up for years to come, or somewhere in between. If you get back to a good place (be thankful you dodged a bullet!) and you want a boost, a better risk/reward IMO would have been to do a low dose of clomid or enlomiphene to start with, and then do something like your dbol protocol or something else fairly short-acting only on top of it such that you are minimally suppressed. Note that dbol is well-known to add water weight so it will leave as quickly as it arrived, although you may retain some strength. It also would have been better to start with something like IPAM/CJC which is not suppressive at all. "Cycles" are very psychologically addictive and can easily progress to perma-blast. IMO it is much better to stay on a permanently sustainable path of gradual progress over many years, rather than get on the roller-coaster to nowhere that has become so common.

 

[madman]

Finally got my lab results back after being on Kyzatrex 200mg BID for a month, no HCG:

Prior to HCG mono-therapy:
TT = 565 (294-916)
Free T = 73 (52-280)
% Free = 1.3 (1.5-3.2)
SHBG = 57.6 (19.3 - 76.4)

After 2 months HCG mono-therapy at 500iu Monday/Thursday (1000iu week):
TT = 647 (294-916)
Free T = 91 (52-280)
% Free = 1.4 (1.5-3.2)
SHBG = 47.7 (19.3 - 76.4)

After one month on Kyzatrex 200mg BID, no HCG. Labs taken 4 hours after morning dose:
TT = 419 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T = 66.8 (35.0-155.0 pg/mL)

So my TT and Free T levels are lower now after being on the Kyzatrex for a month then they were when I was on nothing at all, and also lower then when I was taking HCG mono-therapy. The only conclusion I can draw is the Kyzatrex dose is too low to raise my TT and Free T levels high enough on its own, while causing suppression of my natural testosterone at the same time. Definitely not the desired effect I was hoping for. Maybe I need 300mg or 400mg BID?

Since I have only felt more fatigue and brain fog on the Kyzatrex, I also tested my thyroid levels to see if the Kyzatrex was effecting that. Here are those results:

TSH = 0.67 (0.40-4.50)
Free T4 = 1.2 (0.8-1.8)
Free T3 = 3.1 (2.3-4.2)

Thyroid Lab Results From September 2023:

TSH = 1.09 (0.45-4.5)
Free T4 = 1.30 (0.82-1.77)
Free T3 = 3.1 (2.0-4.4)

So on the Kyzatrex, my TSH and Free T4 went down a bit, and T3 was unchanged. This could just be a normal fluctuation and nothing to do with the Kyzatrex since I take thyroid hormone replacement due to hypothyroidism.

I might test my iron/ferritin levels next to see if the Kyzatrex is making me anemic and maybe that's what is causing the increased feeling of fatigue and brain fog. So there you have it. Thoughts would be appreciated!

Are you taking your Kyzatrex with a meal?

If so you are definitely going to need a higher daily dose as your peak FT is shitty!