First Defy Consultation/HCG

AbsoluteZ3R0 · Feb 25, 2017

So I had my first consultation today with the PA at Defy, and apparently it's mandatory that anyone under the age of 30 attempt testosterone "stimulation" before moving on to replacement. Since I already had a horrible experience with clomid, the PA was kind enough to offer HCG monotherapy as an alternative, but I'm feeling a lot of wariness either way. When I took clomid I didn't use an AI, but even at the lowest dose (12.5 eod) I felt worse than I do naturally with low testosterone. On the other hand, I know HCG on its own is iffy. Nonetheless, I e-mailed her and told her I'd prefer HCG (she told me to take my time and think about my decision, since the prescription can't be ordered until Monday). Naturally, I was a bit devastated by this whole experience as I was hoping for a concrete solution to this horrible problem of low t I've been facing, presumably for years. I assumed that since trt/hcg combination could preserve fertility for the most part, there'd be no reason to withhold true trt based on my age. She did mention that after 30 days if I was still experiencing symptoms, we could move on to trt, but I'm still feeling really down about this. Does anyone have any experience using HCG on its own? I perused the forums/web but couldn't find much.

PS I get that at my age it's not ideal to be dependent on a needle for the rest of my life, and that trt is NOT a simple or straightforward endeavor, but I always think about people I know who've had type I diabetes since they were children. These people not only depend on a needle, but could die without it or with an overdose. No doctor would ever say "you're too young for this" when it's a matter of life/death, but when it comes to quality of life it seems to be a different story. Anyway, I'm not complaining about the quality of service from Defy (which has been excellent), but it is a really inconvenient and honestly stressful situation for me.

johndoesmith · Feb 25, 2017

AbsoluteZ3R0 said:
So I had my first consultation today with the PA at Defy, and apparently it's mandatory that anyone under the age of 30 attempt testosterone "stimulation" before moving on to replacement. Since I already had a horrible experience with clomid, the PA was kind enough to offer HCG monotherapy as an alternative, but I'm feeling a lot of wariness either way. When I took clomid I didn't use an AI, but even at the lowest dose (12.5 eod) I felt worse than I do naturally with low testosterone. On the other hand, I know HCG on its own is iffy. Nonetheless, I e-mailed her and told her I'd prefer HCG (she told me to take my time and think about my decision, since the prescription can't be ordered until Monday). Naturally, I was a bit devastated by this whole experience as I was hoping for a concrete solution to this horrible problem of low t I've been facing, presumably for years. I assumed that since trt/hcg combination could preserve fertility for the most part, there'd be no reason to withhold true trt based on my age. She did mention that after 30 days if I was still experiencing symptoms, we could move on to trt, but I'm still feeling really down about this. Does anyone have any experience using HCG on its own? I perused the forums/web but couldn't find much.

PS I get that at my age it's not ideal to be dependent on a needle for the rest of my life, and that trt is NOT a simple or straightforward endeavor, but I always think about people I know who've had type I diabetes since they were children. These people not only depend on a needle, but could die without it or with an overdose. No doctor would ever say "you're too young for this" when it's a matter of life/death, but when it comes to quality of life it seems to be a different story. Anyway, I'm not complaining about the quality of service from Defy (which has been excellent), but it is a really inconvenient and honestly stressful situation for me.

Not really sure what you want here.

You were offered hCG mono as a trial, with the back up being TRT if that doesn't work. 30 days is not that long, if it doesn't work, TRT will be there for you.

The difference between type 1 diabetes and hypogonadism, is that there's no chance of naturally boosting insulin production when the pancreas is not functioning. There is a chance to restart your gonads though.

AbsoluteZ3R0 · Feb 25, 2017

I know the diabetes analogy is not perfect, but I was only using it because the reason I was given for not going directly into trt is basically that it's a lifelong commitment and that it's more complicated than I think it is (which I am aware of). I just want to feel better asap. I realize in the grand scheme 30 days is not very long, but at this point it feels that way.

johndoesmith · Feb 25, 2017

AbsoluteZ3R0 said:
I know the diabetes analogy is not perfect, but I was only using it because the reason I was given for not going directly into trt is basically that it's a lifelong commitment and that it's more complicated than I think it is (which I am aware of). I just want to feel better asap. I realize in the grand scheme 30 days is not very long, but at this point it feels that way.

Well, you're also assuming that hCG mono won't make you feel better. You may very well respond to it. Don't count it out because it's considered to be less than TRT.

Defy's team is very knowledgeable on what works and doesn't work so if they're prescribing you something then they have full faith it is likely to work for you.

Even if you started TRT today, on a protocol that was perfectly dialed in, you will not see results probably for over a month. Ask me how I know

Also, I know for a fact that's not how Defy operates, there's no age limit that forces a drug on you. I am proof that's not the case, because I was put on TRT straightaway due to presenting as primary hypogonadal. There's no policy that exists mandating hCG monotherapy for anyone under an arbitrary age.

Forum is for discussion, not whining, if you do not like how your provider treated you, you're entitled to a second opinion.

AbsoluteZ3R0 · Feb 25, 2017

johndoesmith said:
Well, you're also assuming that hCG mono won't make you feel better. You may very well respond to it. Don't count it out because it's considered to be less than TRT.

Defy's team is very knowledgeable on what works and doesn't work so if they're prescribing you something then they have full faith it is likely to work for you.

Even if you started TRT today, on a protocol that was perfectly dialed in, you will not see results probably for over a month. Ask me how I know

Also, I know for a fact that's not how Defy operates, there's no age limit that forces a drug on you. I am proof that's not the case, because I was put on TRT straightaway due to presenting as primary hypogonadal. There's no policy that exists mandating hCG monotherapy for anyone under an arbitrary age.

Forum is for discussion, not whining, if you do not like how your provider treated you, you're entitled to a second opinion.

I'm sorry my post came off as whining. That was not my intention, but I am upset so it's not surprising that's how I expressed myself. My case seems to be primary as well since my LH was higher (5.6), but she said that unless there was a clear physical abnormality, it was mandatory to try a "stimulation" protocol first. Anyway, as you said, it may work for me, so I guess I have no choice but to be patient.

johndoesmith · Feb 25, 2017

AbsoluteZ3R0 said:
I'm sorry my post came off as whining. That was not my intention, but I am upset so it's not surprising that's how I expressed myself. My case seems to be primary as well since my LH was higher (5.6), but she said that unless there was a clear physical abnormality, it was mandatory to try a "stimulation" protocol first. Anyway, as you said, it may work for me, so I guess I have no choice but to be patient.

Well, it's understandable, I remember being like that before treatment.

I don't think it's "mandatory" so much as it is recommended. TRT is a life long thing, and hCG mono may very well demonstrate the need for it, or it may work.

Either way, you can't lose.

In my case, I had years of testicular issues, including a surgery, as well as epididymitis several times, so it wasn't surprising to any of the medical staff why I was primary.

I remember starting TRT, and being upset that at 5 weeks my levels were PERFECT but I felt nothing. I was put on a protocol that worked the first time, no dialing in, all levels were EXACTLY where we want them but it still took 2 months for me to notice anything.

That's because hormones work at arctic glacier speeds. So 1 month isn't even enough to see the full benefits of TRT.

Vince · Feb 26, 2017

Because of your young age and may want children someday. I would try to think positive, work very hard at doing a restart. It would be so much of a positive, compared to being on TRT for the rest of your life. Many men, that are on TRT, struggle with it. That's my two cents.

Vince Carter · Feb 26, 2017

You are indeed a good candidate for HCG Mono though I don't think that there's a real population of mono guys on this forum and you can trust Defy to manage it and be there for you. You could always 2d opinion with Dr Saya...I think we're seeing some variances with the new staff which, I don't know, I was a little leery of myself.

rhino5169 · Feb 26, 2017

Curious as to dosage and protocol?

AbsoluteZ3R0 · Feb 26, 2017

rhino5169 said:
Curious as to dosage and protocol?

She wrote 200/300 iu 3x a week, which I realize is very low. That said, now that I've had the chance to sleep on it, I'm strongly considering the clomid/AI protocol instead. If Dr Saya genuinely believes this is the best method for healthy patients under 30, I need to trust him. Best case scenario I feel great and don't need trt, worst case scenario I have a repeat experience of feeling like a heaping bag of garbage, and then I can say with sincerity that even their best protocol didn't work for me. I lasted 3 months on a higher dose of clomid with no AI last time, so I'm sure I can last 30 days this time. If it doesn't work, I think we will all feel more secure and confident about moving on to the next step.

rhino5169 · Feb 26, 2017

I think that is logical thinking.
Good luck. Would like to see updates

First Defy Consultation/HCG

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