Estrogen crash causing permanent apathy/lethargy - by destroying your dopamine neurons?

Buy Lab Tests Online

simeoni

Member
Ive been on trt for 2 years now and had a estrogen crash this fall. From that point on I've been trying to redial my Ai protocol, and at the moment, im at a point where i've decided to ditch my arimidex completely.

One of the thing that is worrying me is the fact that I cant seem to shake of the apathy/lethargy ive been experiencing after the crash.

I did some reading on this and found few interesting studies that showed how estrogen deprivation lead to apoptosis - cell death - of certain percent of your dopamine producing neurons.


The first study was done in ovariectomized female monkeys:

Estrogen Deprivation Leads To Death Of Dopamine Cells In The Brain

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/12/001204072446.htm

"Without estrogen, more than 30 percent of all the dopamine neurons disappeared in a major area of the brain that produces the neurotransmitter, dopamine, "

"After both 10 and 30 days of estrogen deprivation, apparently 30 percent of the total number of substantia nigra dopamine cells are lost," Redmond said. "Furthermore, the density calculations showed that brief estrogen replacement restores the density of the total number of neurons in that area of the brain 10 days after the ovaries have been removed, but not 30 days later."

This second study was done in male rat's whoms aromatise enxyme was "shut off"


Estrogen deficiency leads to apoptosis in dopaminergic neurons in the medial preoptic area and arcuate nucleus of male mice


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15555924

"Previously, we have reported that no such changes were observed in the hypothalamus of female ArKO mice. Thus, we have provided direct evidence that estrogen is required to maintain the survival and functional integrity of dopaminergic neurons in the MPO and Arc of male, but not female mice."


Now of course we should take these animal studies with a grain of salt. I think that if these result applied directly to human males, we would be seeing a lot more men - in different forum's - complaining about low dopamine symptoms despite normal E2 levels. That said these findings made me more cautious on using aromatize inhibitors.
 
Last edited:
Defy Medical TRT clinic doctor

simeoni

Member
Here's another study that highlights the neuroprotective effects of estrogen - against various brain toxins:
( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11424955 )

"Estrogen also preserves striatal dopamine concentrations in gonadectomized male mice treated with MPTP, but neither testosterone nor dihydrotestosterone offer any neuroprotection. A brief review indicating a variety of potential means by which estrogen can function as a neuroprotectant is indicated."
 
Ive been on trt for 2 years now and had a estrogen crash this fall. From that point on I've been trying to redial my Ai protocol, and at the moment, im at a point where i've decided to ditch my arimidex completely.

One of the thing that is worrying me is the fact that I cant seem to shake of the apathy/lethargy ive been experiencing after the crash.

I did some reading on this and found few interesting studies that showed how estrogen deprivation lead to apoptosis - cell death - of certain percent of your dopamine producing neurons.


The first study was done in ovariectomized female monkeys:

Estrogen Deprivation Leads To Death Of Dopamine Cells In The Brain

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/12/001204072446.htm

"Without estrogen, more than 30 percent of all the dopamine neurons disappeared in a major area of the brain that produces the neurotransmitter, dopamine, "

"After both 10 and 30 days of estrogen deprivation, apparently 30 percent of the total number of substantia nigra dopamine cells are lost," Redmond said. "Furthermore, the density calculations showed that brief estrogen replacement restores the density of the total number of neurons in that area of the brain 10 days after the ovaries have been removed, but not 30 days later."

This second study was done in male rat's whoms aromatise enxyme was "shut off"


Estrogen deficiency leads to apoptosis in dopaminergic neurons in the medial preoptic area and arcuate nucleus of male mice


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15555924

"Previously, we have reported that no such changes were observed in the hypothalamus of female ArKO mice. Thus, we have provided direct evidence that estrogen is required to maintain the survival and functional integrity of dopaminergic neurons in the MPO and Arc of male, but not female mice."


Now of course we should take these animal studies with a grain of salt. I think that if these result applied directly to human males, we would be seeing a lot more men - in different forum's - complaining about low dopamine symptoms despite normal E2 levels. That said these findings made me more cautious on using aromatize inhibitors.

Have you had any recent labs?

I wouldn't really worry too much about what studies say for this, sometimes they can seem really clear, but aren't exactly applicable. Worrying a lot like this, is a sign of low E2 ;)
 

simeoni

Member
to johndoesmith: I have taken quite a few lab readings this fall. Latest was taken last tuesday and it showed my E2 at 24pg/ml (non sensitive). Being still a dumb ass, I did take 0,25mg adex that day. Had a couple of really bad days after that. now im doing better. I definitely turn into a worrier when E2 goes too low. Im optimistic and doubt that my lethargy is permanent.

to trt4me: thats a good point. That's why we need to be cautious when looking at animal studies. Over all, I doubt that those effects apply to humans in a same way. Like I said in the first post, people seems to recover from a crash just fine.

I do think that there is one thing we can all take from these studies: Estrogen plays an important role in protecting our dopaminergic neurons.
 
if you will be supressing it every time its 20+ pg/ml it can turn into permanent.. throw your adex to the trash can and use testosterone dose that doesnt require AI
 
to johndoesmith: I have taken quite a few lab readings this fall. Latest was taken last tuesday and it showed my E2 at 24pg/ml (non sensitive). Being still a dumb ass, I did take 0,25mg adex that day. Had a couple of really bad days after that. now im doing better. I definitely turn into a worrier when E2 goes too low. Im optimistic and doubt that my lethargy is permanent.

to trt4me: thats a good point. That's why we need to be cautious when looking at animal studies. Over all, I doubt that those effects apply to humans in a same way. Like I said in the first post, people seems to recover from a crash just fine.

I do think that there is one thing we can all take from these studies: Estrogen plays an important role in protecting our dopaminergic neurons.

Post your full results, ranges and all.

24 on a standard test could certainly be low, if it's at 15 instead.

You're absolutely right about E2 possibly playing a role in dopaminergic neurons in the brain, E2 also plays a lot of important roles as a neuroprotective agent, in fact IIRC E2 is the main mechanism of action for testosterone in the brain.
 

Vettester Chris

Super Moderator
I crashed the E2 many years ago. No fun! It effects so many vital areas for well being. Nails, joints and hair went to crap for awhile, then the immune system let every cold intruding virus knock me down for several months (3 colds, 1 flu in 3 months). Knock on wood, but it's been over a year for any of that crud! Then there's that estrogen rebound phase, which for me was a hell-like experience with the receptors in the nipple region (a little tamoxifen can do wonders if that happens BTW). Estrogen is so critical for our well being.
 

simeoni

Member
Thanks for sharing your experience. To me experiencing low E2 is almost worse than low t symptoms. Just horrible. Im glad that the worst phase seems to have subsided.

May I ask: How long you were low - before estrogen rebounded?

I crashed the E2 many years ago. No fun! It effects so many vital areas for well being. Nails, joints and hair went to crap for awhile, then the immune system let every cold intruding virus knock me down for several months (3 colds, 1 flu in 3 months). Knock on wood, but it's been over a year for any of that crud! Then there's that estrogen rebound phase, which for me was a hell-like experience with the receptors in the nipple region (a little tamoxifen can do wonders if that happens BTW). Estrogen is so critical for our well being.
 

simeoni

Member
Still experiencing apathy - cant really seem to enjoy things like the way I used to. Altough I have to say that I had a couple of good days here and there.

Arimidex is still on hold at the moment. Im taking labs next thursday.

Also I made a switch from nebido to test e. My current protocol is 75mg every 5 days.
 
Still experiencing apathy - cant really seem to enjoy things like the way I used to. Altough I have to say that I had a couple of good days here and there.

Arimidex is still on hold at the moment. Im taking labs next thursday.

Also I made a switch from nebido to test e. My current protocol is 75mg every 5 days.

Well it's only been 2 weeks AFAIK since you've stopped AI correct?

It takes time for these things to happen.

Also, you switched to test E when? I would not get labs for at least 5-6 weeks after starting a new protocol.

Also, why E5D? It's a strange protocol, not bad, but E3.5D is easier to keep track of and will minimize the peaks and troughs more so.
 

simeoni

Member
It's actually been 1,5 weeks since my last adex. I started test E about a week a go. I want to take labs mainly to see my E2 level.

At some point ill probably try more frequent injections, but my I will keep my current protocol as a starting point.
 
It's actually been 1,5 weeks since my last adex. I started test E about a week a go. I want to take labs mainly to see my E2 level.

At some point ill probably try more frequent injections, but my I will keep my current protocol as a starting point.

You've made way too many changes in the past 2 weeks for your labs to make any type of sense. I urge you to not waste your money on pulling your E2 level, as it will 99% chance be different in 6 weeks.
 

simeoni

Member
Well I appreciate your input.

I'm scheduled for other labs as well so testing E2 is just a part of it. Also i'm prone to aromatize quit fast and in the past my estrogen has always rebounded within 2 weeks. With that in mind, I think that pulling my E2 two weeks after my last adex does give some indication of my estradiol level.

Ill be takin another set of labs roughly 6 weeks from my last adex.
 
use testosterone dose that doesnt require AI
there are a lot of people who mess their entire balance with AI use just because they use too much testosterone for their body
i swear every time i used AI i was good for couple of days weeks then it always went downhill and i felt too low.. its so hard to keep yourself in sweetspot with AI that its just much better to go lower T dose and no AI
 
Buy Lab Tests Online

Sponsors

bodybuilder test discounted labs
Defy Medical TRT clinic
nelson vergel coaching for men
Discounted Labs
TRT in UK Balance my hormones
Testosterone books nelson vergel
Register on ExcelMale.com
Trimix HCG Offer Excelmale
Thumos USA men's mentoring and coaching
Testosterone TRT HRT Doctor Near Me
how to save your marriage

Online statistics

Members online
3
Guests online
7
Total visitors
10

Latest posts

Top