low e2 symptoms didnt go away after crash

Just to clarify, in the study the dopamine cells only returned if estrogen was administered within 10 days. After 30 days dopamine cell death appeared to be permanent.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/12/001204072446.htm

yes but the study was done on animals. perhaps it's different in humans
even though it kinda makes sense to me that it's permanents because i suffer from very low dopamine symptoms for years after e2 crash

Gman86 said:

Just to clarify, in the study the dopamine cells only returned if estrogen was administered within 10 days. After 30 days dopamine cell death appeared to be permanent.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/12/001204072446.htm

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Omfg. That is terrifying...

There are few caveats to that study. One is that they only gave the animals a brief estrogen replacement therapy. This lasted only two days. You can read this from the full study. We really dont know if the other group would have also recovered their lost neurons if the E2 treatment would have lasted longer.

That said this study does give support to the notion that E2 does play a protective role when it comes to your dopamine producing neurons. You also need a proper amount of estrogen to feel the effects of dopamine.

What still puzzles me is the fact that there are a lot of men who have low e2 for a long time and still seem to recover back to normal - in a decent timeframe. Perhaps there really is a genetic component to this. Maybe for some men the effects of low e2 are more detrimental - and recovery takes much longer.

As an update for me I would say that I have improved. My agitation and anxiety are pretty much gone. I feel more connected to my loved ones. Im able to enjoy things a lit bit better. That said im still not back to where I was when all this began. Libido is not the same. Ability to enjoy things is not the same. Everything related to dopamine is still a bit dull.

Hopefully with time things continue to improve.

simeoni said:

There are few caveats to that study. One is that they only gave the animals a brief estrogen replacement therapy. This lasted only two days. You can read this from the full study. We really dont know if the other group would have also recovered their lost neurons if the E2 treatment would have lasted longer.

That said this study does give support to the notion that E2 does play a protective role when it comes to your dopamine producing neurons. You also need a proper amount of estrogen to feel the effects of dopamine.

What still puzzles me is the fact that there are a lot of men who have low e2 for a long time and still seem to recover back to normal - in a decent timeframe. Perhaps there really is a genetic component to this. Maybe for some men the effects of low e2 are more detrimental - and recovery takes much longer.

As an update for me I would say that I have improved. My agitation and anxiety are pretty much gone. I feel more connected to my loved ones. Im able to enjoy things a lit bit better. That said im still not back to where I was when all this began. Libido is not the same. Ability to enjoy things is not the same. Everything related to dopamine is still a bit dull.

Hopefully with time things continue to improve.

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That definitely makes sense. I hope our dopamine isn’t permanently toast... Do you have lethargy and spaciness at all at this point? Those are really the symptom I’m most worried about.

yall should drink few cups of coffee every day it protects agaisnt parkinsons

Lethargy, apathy, anhedonia what ever you want to call it. That has been the main symptoms for me. Like I said it has improved but im still not back to normal. I used to have spaciness here and there but not anymore.

Out of curiosity, have you tried taking mucuna pruriensis (L-Dopa) or any other dopaminergic stimulant? If yes, do they still have the same effect for you?

Im interested in this because mucuna does not have the same kick for me anymore. If we would be suffering from a parkinson like condition then our brain - mainly the D2 receptors - should have a higher sensitivity to dopamine. This is usually seen in parkinson patients when they start the levodopa treatment.

My situation seems to be the opposite. At worst mucuna does nothing for me - when in the past it had a clear effects. Now in my mind this does point to something else than the loss of dopaminergic neurons. Perhaps a problem with estrogen itself - some sort of dysfunction in the estrogen receptor.

But yeah. Who knows for certain? Time seems to be the best medicine for this ordeal.

Oh and labs. You should take thorough testing to make sure everything else is withing good range. To be honest im amazed about the amount of pure speculation some people have in this thread. If theres one thing that I have learned from all this it is the fact that you cannot trust on your feelings as indicator whether you have high or low e2. You can of course speculate but in my mind any changes in your protocol should only be made after your lab work indicates the need for it - and you have symptoms.

Burritosnstuff said:

That definitely makes sense. I hope our dopamine isn't permanently toast... Do you have lethargy and spaciness at all at this point? Those are really the symptom I'm most worried about.

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simeoni are you taking any meds other than testosterone? im asking because im wondering if how you handle these side effects the longer I have them the harder it is to remain calm and happy. I used to smoke weed and it helped a lot before I crashed e2 2nd time with dhea cream now it has 0 effects on me. meditation helps but only when I am not feeling agitated
i also smoke more cigarettes than i should (not that i should smoke them at all but I would go nuts anhedonia/apathy which is always there makes me very depressed at times)

simeoni said:

Lethargy, apathy, anhedonia what ever you want to call it. That has been the main symptoms for me. Like I said it has improved but im still not back to normal. I used to have spaciness here and there but not anymore.

Out of curiosity, have you tried taking mucuna pruriensis (L-Dopa) or any other dopaminergic stimulant? If yes, do they still have the same effect for you?

Im interested in this because mucuna does not have the same kick for me anymore. If we would be suffering from a parkinson like condition then our brain - mainly the D2 receptors - should have a higher sensitivity to dopamine. This is usually seen in parkinson patients when they start the levodopa treatment.

My situation seems to be the opposite. At worst mucuna does nothing for me - when in the past it had a clear effects. Now in my mind this does point to something else than the loss of dopaminergic neurons. Perhaps a problem with estrogen itself - some sort of dysfunction in the estrogen receptor.

But yeah. Who knows for certain? Time seems to be the best medicine for this ordeal.

Oh and labs. You should take thorough testing to make sure everything else is withing good range. To be honest im amazed about the amount of pure speculation some people have in this thread. If theres one thing that I have learned from all this it is the fact that you cannot trust on your feelings as indicator whether you have high or low e2. You can of course speculate but in my mind any changes in your protocol should only be made after your lab work indicates the need for it - and you have symptoms.

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When I mentioned lethargy, I was more-so referring to the fatigue. I’ve had fatigue so bad I can’t sit straight or stand without sitting, after I eat I start falling asleep, it’s horrific, that’s by far my worst side-effect. My apathy/depression more-so comes from the fact that I’m so tired I don’t have the energy to be happy/exited.

To try to answer your question, Not super proud of this but towards the end of my initial crash was partying in Mexico and ended up doing one small line of snow, first time in years, started feeling like I was going to pass out because ligaments were loosing circulation. Then head started loosing circulation, thought I was gonna OD for a couple hours till symptoms went away. Never happened to me before, especially off such small amount of crappy stuff. Horrifying experience and can NOT be healthy... I assumed it was cuz low E. But may be a correlation with dopamine?

Labs have been perfect for months, everything including E2, thyroid, prolactin, you name it.

One thing tho, there’s a blood test for dopamine - “Catecholamines Blood Test, Fractionated“ not sure if it can pinpoint what we’re looking for, but might help.

Thinking about getting that done...

https://mindhacks.com/2010/03/09/a-man-with-virtually-no-serotonin-or-dopamine/

This guy had no serotonin or dopamine and had no mood disorders or apathy, I feel like this phenomenon you guys are experiencing is largely psychosomatic. Clinically speaking, people with low dopamine present with gross movement disorders such as tremor, spasticity, etc.... are you guys experiencing this? I doubt it...

People read the rat study and freak out, you absolutely cannot extrapolate that to humans. We have hundreds of thousands of bodybuilders who crush their E2 levels to zero pre contest and women who take estrogen blockers for breast cancer and not one piece of information has manifested about issues with dopamine.

I was gonna mention women with breast cancer as well. They absolutely crush their estrogen for years. Up to 5 years I believe is standard practice.

I’m not sure what to think tbh. I’ve been on TRT for about 4 years now, and the biggest thing I struggle with still is brain fog, difficulty staying focused/ concentrating, apathy, can’t connect to girlfriends as much, don’t enjoy things like I used to, lethargy and just feeling like my personality is dulled. I’ve crashed my estrogen a few times while on TRT, and this thread has really got me thinking whether or not crashing my E2 has something to do with it

https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/67/topics/826766

I am so miserable. Have been for almost 2 years. I've done it all....acupuncture, mediation, hypnosis, therapy, herbs, etc etc... I havnt slept in over 2 years. Depressed. Apathetic. at times suicidal.

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https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/78/topics/851224

I think I am on the edge of depression. I am not sad or feel pity, I just have feelings of not caring about anything anymore. I don't care how I look, I don't care if I see my friends, I don't care to do any of my favorite activities. The things I am doing now is like just going through the motions because I don't want anyone to know what I don't feel. My short term memory is getting terrible.

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https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/78/topics/755969?page=221#post_3316225

I took Arimidex for 3 months with progressively worsening side effects. I took a self-induced "break" 2 weeks prior to seeing my onc without significant change. My third week OFF of Arimidex and I am starting to feel human again! I actually 'jogged' up the stairs for the first time in months..., I went shopping after work without feeling as if I would fall asleep behind the wheel on my way home.., it's small stuff but reassured me that I wasn't crazy!

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I feel for all of you! Pains and aches are no picnic and I am no stranger to them! Unfortunately what is bothering me now even more, is my uncontrollable appetite, memory loss and a general feeling of apathy, and let's NOT forget my constant feeling of living in the NORTH POLE!!! Hello, I could use an hot flash once in a while.....
I felt more alive and positive after I found out my DX than I do now....Now I feel like I want to just crawl under a rock and stay there! I know it has to be the Arimidex because all these problems started recently.

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https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/78/topics/754655

Started this poison May 6. Will not take it again. I was on tamoxifen for 15 mos. and had horrible hip pain and hot flashed about 40 a day. So went to arimidex. The depression and flat affect has made me totally uselss a zombie. Onco is sending me for every test under the sun...but this severe depression did not start until I took arimidex. I have a 18 yr old son and 14 yr old with cerebal palsy. I actually looked at my Xanax bottle today and contemplated taking them all.. Very scared was never depressed or suicidal. I am on leave of absense from work just totally unable to function on this drug. Found my milk in the kitchen cabinet. Is anyone else feeling this was?? I can take all the joint pain it causes. I cannot let this rob my mind and sanity. thank you all for listening.

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low dopamine symptoms

• muscle cramps, spasms, or tremors
• aches and pains
• stiffness in the muscles
• loss of balance
• constipation
• difficulty eating and swallowing
• weight loss or weight gain
• gastroesophageal reflux disease (GERD)
• frequent pneumonia
• trouble sleeping or disturbed sleep
• low energy
• an inability to focus
• moving or speaking more slowly than usual
• feeling fatigued
• feeling demotivated
• feeling inexplicably sad or tearful
• mood swings
• feeling hopeless
• having low self-esteem
• feeling guilt-ridden
• feeling anxious
• suicidal thoughts or thoughts of self-harm
• low sex drive
• hallucinations
• delusions
• lack of insight or self-awareness

I bolded the symptoms of low dopamine that I currently have.
Vitamin_C is just a hater.. he doesn't understand that when we crashed e2 and started feeling like dog crap we never recovered like other people that recover from all crashed e2 symptoms when their e2 comes back.. We never had it, understand?! I can't speak for others ofcourse but I know I didn't. I lost desire to do stuff on 2nd or 3rd week on arimidex and never bounced back ok? I stopped caring about anything, stopped having drive for anything. you can't just say "well, I haven't seen that somebody now recovered in a study so you must be hypochondriac because I haven't seen". leave us alone moron

lowe2sucks said:

https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/67/topics/826766

https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/78/topics/851224

https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/78/topics/755969?page=221#post_3316225


https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/78/topics/754655

low dopamine symptoms

• muscle cramps, spasms, or tremors
• aches and pains
• stiffness in the muscles
• loss of balance
• constipation
• difficulty eating and swallowing
• weight loss or weight gain
• gastroesophageal reflux disease (GERD)
• frequent pneumonia
• trouble sleeping or disturbed sleep
• low energy
• an inability to focus
• moving or speaking more slowly than usual
• feeling fatigued
• feeling demotivated
• feeling inexplicably sad or tearful
• mood swings
• feeling hopeless
• having low self-esteem
• feeling guilt-ridden
• feeling anxious
• suicidal thoughts or thoughts of self-harm
• low sex drive
• hallucinations
• delusions
• lack of insight or self-awareness

I bolded the symptoms of low dopamine that I currently have.

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If you could show that arimidex causes any epigenetic changes to the receptor in humans and further changes to dopamine that is permanent in nature that would be vital. Not all women who take Arimidex have mood disorders, only a small subset do and only a small subset of women who are on arimidex are on those forums. Big picture, we are not seeing it. I've only come across the phenomenon in a handful of men, and they have only been on internet forums, its not happening at Testosterone clinics that I've seen. With my experience in the medical field, including years in psychiatry, I believe this is a psychosomatic phenomenon you guys are experiencing. You have no real science to back up your claims at all and are relying on bro science. If anyone in here has followed your postings, you are borderline hysterical. And the name calling is absolutely tacky and displays how desperate you are.

i don't want to show you nothing just keep yourself out of this thread please because you are not contributing nothing for us to find a solution
even dr crisler wrote that it is possible (his words were "there were some cases were somethign more omnious occured and things never got right again" its on peakT forum you can find it it's still there.. do you doubt Dr. Crisler?

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=14388.msg128951#msg128951

Most guys will jump right back up again....as if they just missed a dose of AI.

I have heard cases where someone more ominous occurred, and things never got right again. Dr. Shippen told me one time about a guy who took a single 1mg tablet of Arimidex, and was trashed for a very long time. It's similar to the dreaded Post Finasteride Syndrome (PFS). Perhaps some epigenetic effect.

But please rest assured, such cases are extremely rare.

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words taken straight from the horse's mouth..
you are just hater vitamin_c admit it.

All great arguments and I thought it was psychosomatic as well because meditation would help and taking benzodiazepines would help too.

But after a while being on TRT with HCG I started to see improvements but of course with me it took a year.

We may never know what is off balanced with our endocrine system, but our bodies are very good at adapting and finding a homeostasis. I believe with time everything will balance itself out. And other people may experience different symptoms and recover at different rates.

But from my experience, tanking E2 for a long period of time to nonexistence with having poor support from a doctor will increase the side effects and contribute to making them longer. Best course of action is stick to TRT + HCG and get those E2 levels back up for a period of time. Then adjust with an AI.

I just added my AI starting at .25 twice a week on injection days and nothing harmful has started.

Then again what doomed me was taking 1mg of Arimadex for 2 weeks straight, ran out of HCG, took only 4 weeks of Clomid and Nolvadex which I wasn’t sure if it was real. And this PCT was shit I admit it I was poorly informed and it was to jump start a years worth of blasting on Sust 500mg and then trenbolone tri ester. This basically was a recipe for disaster. Looking back, I can see now why my recovery was so brutal.

But from this website and the amazing members I have learned how to maintain my protocol and if one day I do want to come off TRT I know exactly the right steps and best doctors to monitor me.

//(his words were "there were some cases were somethign more omnious occured and things never got right again" its on peakT forum you can find it it's still there//

Its possible, but it lacks data other than anecdotes. Maybe some are more genetically susceptible to being jacked up from Adex, same reason some people get jacked up from Accutane and Finasteride and why others don't.

// Perhaps some epigenetic effect.//

Perhaps? who knows, there is no data to back this up yet we have many people who have crashed their estrogen, including men and women.

^ok so if you admitted it's possible why you call all of us (mind you it's not just me you have simeoni, nurselife and bunch of other folks) hypochondriacs? you have some issues man for sure why you come into this thread and pretty much tell us we are all lying? what bussiness you have here? this thread is for folks who indeed have side effects that remain even after discontinuinig arimidex and try to figure out what happened and how to fix it. I will find you another proof, it's from Dr. Mark Gordon he said he had one patient (athlete as far as I remember) who took too much arimidex and even now few years after has symptoms from it. give me few hours I'll find it just to shut you up finally.

---

also Dr. Mark Gordon discovered that E2 (ESTRADIOL) is a neurotransmitter.

I don’t want anecdotes , I want data , present any data in humans to show that epigenetic changes occur, this is a well known and well studied drug . I have nothing to gain by disagreeing with your premise at all, I want to help people, that is why I am becoming a practitioner . You displayed characteristics of someone who is a hypochondriac/somatic . I have crashed my estrogen , I have immersed myself in TRT medicine , I’ve walked the walk. You can continue to believe that you will remain jacked up or you can man up and make changes to your life and hopefully you’ll quit crying on these forums .