TRT - Why it works and why it doesn't

I was on trt from mid 2014- May this year. I tried injecting once per week, every 3.5 days, eod, subq, IM. Never more than 100mg/week of test cyp. Each time an adjustment was made I waited 8 weeks before having labs. The last labs at 24mg eod and 120 units hcg subq ed revealed numbers that looked great, except for low DHEA. I also used Anastrozole in tiny amounts except for the 24mg eod which I didn't and my e2 came back at 28. I just didn't feel that good. I stopped test cyp cold turkey against Drs advice but never did experience a crash like I've read about on here. I did continue the HCG ed for 3 weeks.
Now after 2 months off my total T is 417, free T borderline low, and e2 upper teens. I've lost muscle, gained some fat, libido about the same as during trt, but I don't have ed now which I battled during trt, no brain fog, and feel somewhat better than I did on trt. If I go back I may shoot for the 600-650 range and see how I feel.

It is an inconvenient truth that TRT does not work for everyone. I am thinking hard about stopping myself, although if I do I will follow a re-start protocol for awhile instead of going cold turkey.

ERO said:

It is an inconvenient truth that TRT does not work for everyone. I am thinking hard about stopping myself, although if I do I will follow a re-start protocol for awhile instead of going cold turkey.

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I believe that most people don't try everything out. There are so many variables which can be adjusted. So many... I think I have tried a lot of TRT-Supplements, but there is still 100 more options and 100 other ways to fine tune and adjust. That's my opinion and I know that everybody has its opinion about this topic. (Gels didn't work for me, too much HCG doesn't work for me, and and)

I don't want to hijack the OP thread, but I was on trt from mid 2014- May this year. I tried injecting once per week, every 3.5 days, eod, subq, IM. Never more than 100mg/week of test cyp. Each time an adjustment was made I waited 8 weeks before having labs. The last labs at 24mg eod and 120 units hcg subq ed revealed numbers that looked great, except for low DHEA. I also used Anastrozole in tiny amounts except for the 24mg eod which I didn't and my e2 came back at 28. I just didn't feel that good. I stopped test cyp cold turkey against Drs advice but never did experience a crash like I've read about on here. I did continue the HCG ed for 3 weeks.
Now after 2 months off my total T is 417, free T borderline low, and e2 upper teens. I've lost muscle, gained some fat, libido about the same as during trt, but I don't have ed now which I battled during trt, no brain fog, and feel somewhat better than I did on trt. If I go back I may shoot for the 600-650 range and see how I feel.

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Thank you a lot for sharing this! I think that there is no way that somebody could see a mistake out of those information you just provided in this thread, since there are so many information missing. You just said how you felt and what you have experienced, but without numbers it can be quite hard to interprete those. I just believe that something is missing or just wrong on the protocol you did. I know that sometimes it is almost the hardest thing in life to find the right amount and the right supplements and so on.

I tried injecting once per week, every 3.5 days, eod, subq, IM.

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If there is one variable really bad then sometimes it doesn't matter so much if you do it every 3.5 days or every week once.

Never more than 100mg/week of test cyp.

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It would be very interesting to know the values with all the changes you did. Did you ever report your whole experience and path in this forum? I really believe that something is missing in your puzzle. It doesn't need to be T. With higher T you got brainfog... (something is wrong) and when you inject T then it has an impact on other 100 (and more) hormones. Did you do better with HCG or without on the same protocoll? I just ask because I know that not all people can handle HCG well.

Here is something which I find interesting:

Now after 2 months off my total T is 417, free T borderline low, and e2 upper teens.

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I could imagine that it is normal for your body to be in the upper teens with E2. (Speculations)

e2 came back at 28

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You said that on TRT you had values at 28 (E2). Maybe this is already too high for you. Since everybody is different and some are doing very good with low 20 and others with high 20 or even above 30/35. So, I'm done with the speculation.

I guess fine tuning is everything in your case! It can take years to find the right protocol for you, but I believe it is worth it and you can do it if you have the will!

And things are so complicated! TRT can have an effect on so many things.. Methylation (MTHFR, genetics) is another topic which sometimes can help. But it is so complex and it is all about fine tuning. Not sure if a few are familiar to this topic... But there are a lot of topics like that.

ERO said:

It is an inconvenient truth that TRT does not work for everyone. I am thinking hard about stopping myself, although if I do I will follow a re-start protocol for awhile instead of going cold turkey.

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You've certainly worked through an awful lot.

Were you using the sensitive estradiol test when testing estradiol? I don't think you mentioned that.

Thanks CoastWatcher for creating this new thread!

I didn't intend to start a new thread and apologize to the op on the other thread for hijacking.
To add to what I've already put, I lost over 50 lbs while on trt, built muscle ( but I am an easy gainer and used to body build in younger years so it was easier getting the muscle back), and looked the best I have since my 30s ( I'm 52).
Getting complimented all the time and putting new notches in the old belt felt great, but I just never felt that good on the inside.
I did struggle a lot with e2 during the once/week, twice/week, and subq phases.(There's an old post I started about my battle with e2 on here). It wasn't all bad but I seemed more moody, and almost never had morning wood. Libido would be great and I either couldn't get it up or would lose it during. That bothered me really bad, which in turn made it even worse. Anastrozole helped but even .25mg would send my e2 from 30 down to low teens, and a couple times below 10.

With 24mg test cyp eod, daily HCG and no Anastrozole my total T was 955. (348-1197)
Free T. 21.8. (7.2-24)
Sensitive e2. 28. (8-35)

Everything else looked ok too except I had low dhea, and I'm supplementing that now.

I just stopped. I did continue the HCG until I ran out. I didn't experience any bad sides, but for some testicle pain, which I still get from time to time. 2 months later I don't look as good because I've lost some muscle and gained some fat, but I get morning wood, and when it gets hard, it stays hard.
I do plan another consult with Dr Saya to explore my options from here on out.

Anastrozole helped but even .25mg would send my e2 from 30 down to low teens, and a couple times below 10.

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.25 was way too much. I could imagine that the right E2 would lay between 0.15 and 0 Anastrozole. Maybe there is no need for Anastrozole since there are other supplements which can lower E2. Correct me when I'm wrong, but I could imagine that zinc helps some people with a little fine tuning.
Maybe a lower dose would also do the trick since you do better with lower T level than higher (of course, other variables play a huge role). I can imagine that with 24 mg testosterone EOD there was too much converted into other hormones which had a bad effect. I know, some people are just doing great with DHEA and Pregnenolone. Have you tried Pregnenolone?

I didn't experience any bad sides

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I believe that getting off TRT was a reliev for your body, so you felt better. It can be so hard to find the right spot on TRT.

Good to hear that you will consult Dr Saya. I'm really interested in what he has to say and if this works for you. Hope you can share this with us too.
I believe that it is always possible to feel better unless someone is already feeling the best (pretending that the stress factor stays the same).

My experience has been that morning and nightime wood was very much correlated to my hormone levels/ balance. If testosterone is above 600, many times it is something else affecting libidio. That part is still being discovered as libidio is a tough one.
Did you ever have your dht and prolactin checked?
And did you ever try a higher dose of Hcg than 120 Ed. ?

trt4me said:

Did you ever have your dht and prolactin checked?
And did you ever try a higher dose of Hcg than 120 Ed. ?

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That's a good point trt4me!
DHT has a huge effect on libido too! But since he injected Testosterone and had HCG i assumed that his DHT was higher than normal. Maybe the ratio with other hormones wasn't right. A lot of speculations!

If all the other variables would stay the same on his TRT-Protocol and he would inject higher doses of HCG - in most cases the E2 will even go higher.

I was told 1000 units hcg/week, split daily x7 or 200/day Mon-fri. I just did the 120/day and stuck with it. It did help keep my testicles full.
The .25mg Anastrozole was used when injecting weekly. .125mg was used 2x week with test cyp twice /week and subq ( e2 was highest and total and free T dropped during subq ).
I never had DHT, 24 hr cortisol, or a full thyroid panel. They were never suggested but maybe I should have.
SHBG was always mid range.
Prolactin was also in range.
I tried pregnenolone ultra micronized but didn't seem to benefit from it.
I kept a daily journal with notes on mood every day from the start, and looking back I had morning depression quite a bit. I never told the Dr and don't know what could have caused that.
I looked back at my notes and toward the end of 24mg eod I had e2 test early morning and took .125mg Anastrozole after. That's when my labs showed the sensitive at 28. Maybe it was e2 all along. Maybe I'm a guy that needs my e2 in the low twenties all the time. Maybe I'm a guy that can't handle total test in the 850+ range. I just don't know.

Maybe it was e2 all along. Maybe I'm a guy that needs my e2 in the low twenties all the time. Maybe I'm a guy that can't handle total test in the 850+ range. I just don't know.

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Stay on it and don't give up! I'm sure you will find the right path!
In my eyes DHT is a very important hormone. I had a time when my urin-tract-prostata felt a bit strange. I did a blood test and found out that DHT was way too high. In my case I made bad experience with gel and it was not possible for my body to handle DHT right. Maybe you really can solve the puzzle with the e2! Hope you can find it out soon! It would be very nice to see your next moves (visit with dr. Saya, blood work, how you feel). I would be very interested since this is also a good learning experience for me (and probably many others).

Canatct - Your experience is similar to mine. I've felt the same way. I stopped TRT cold turkey a few years ago with none of the menacing, debilitating things you read about happening. My TT went back to about what it was at baseline (didn't crash to sub zero levels as some would lead you to believe). I chose to get back on Cypionate because I believe in the benefits it offers. My problem was, like many others, I got bad advice from a doc who wasn't well versed in the best protocols. He meant well, just wasn't super knowledgeable. I educated myself from great sites like excelmale.com, read Nelson's book and made the decision to get get back on T with a much different approach...that I believe is paying off. It sounds like you've tried a few sound protocols and you're just not getting the result you're looking for. That's a tough position to be in my friend. Good to hear that after stopping T, you're doing well and feeling better. I think we all hear the advertisements about how great testosterone is for a man, but what men are seldom told is about the impact exogenous T has on so many other hormones. I take it because, for me, the pros outweigh the cons. But there is certainly a downside for some guys who take T.

canatct said:

I was on trt from mid 2014- May this year. I tried injecting once per week, every 3.5 days, eod, subq, IM. Never more than 100mg/week of test cyp. Each time an adjustment was made I waited 8 weeks before having labs. The last labs at 24mg eod and 120 units hcg subq ed revealed numbers that looked great, except for low DHEA. I also used Anastrozole in tiny amounts except for the 24mg eod which I didn't and my e2 came back at 28. I just didn't feel that good. I stopped test cyp cold turkey against Drs advice but never did experience a crash like I've read about on here. I did continue the HCG ed for 3 weeks.
Now after 2 months off my total T is 417, free T borderline low, and e2 upper teens. I've lost muscle, gained some fat, libido about the same as during trt, but I don't have ed now which I battled during trt, no brain fog, and feel somewhat better than I did on trt. If I go back I may shoot for the 600-650 range and see how I feel.

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After reading through this thread, I wonder if you should stay off TRT. Maybe with proper dieting and exercising, you would be better off. You could just try to raise your testosterone naturally.

My total T 2 years ago was in the 200+ range. Now it's 417 after, so I feel confident the weight loss helped.
I don't want you guys to think I'm completely better off without trt. I'm not. My free T is still very low normal. I don't have the drive to cycle that extra few miles or that extra umph in the gym. I do plan to have a lengthy discussion with DEFY soon to see what Dr Saya thinks.
( by the way, while my Dr prescribes the test cyp, he knows very little about trt. Dr Saya is tops in my opinion and I wouldn't even think of looking elsewhere for guidance).
I have to admit that I went from not wanting to remove my shirt in front of anyone before trt to my wife of 17 yrs telling me to put it back on after the fat loss/muscle gain. Getting looks at 52 yrs old sure makes a guy feel good about himself! I even pulled out the old Billy Ray Cyrus jeans ( you middle aged guys know the jeans I'm talking about) and wore them to church lol.

I'll let you guys know what happens in the near future and thanks for the replies.

canatct said:

Getting looks at 52 yrs old sure makes a guy feel good about himself!

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Isn't that a great feeling!