Deciding on what protocol to change to

My current protocol is->

Monday morning: 50mg test C
Tuesday morning: 350iu's HCG
Wednesday afternoon: 50mg test C and .25mg AI
Thursday afternoon: 350iu's HCG
Friday evening: 50mg test C
Saturday evening: 350iu's HCG
Sunday: Nothing

If you have been following my thyroid / iron problems in my other thread, I'm looking for a new protocol to eliminate donating blood ever again if I can help it. My numbers weren't getting out of control but I read they can continue to climb as time goes on and I'm also supplementing with iron now which probably isn't helping keep my numbers down. Figured I should play it safe and be proactive. I was thinking based on wanting to keep my HCT number low and having a low SHBG I should go to a everyday protocol like this->

Monday: 20mg test C / morning 350iu's HCG
Tuesday: 20mg test C
Wednesday: 20mg test C / afternoon 350iu's HCG
Thursday: 20mg test C
Friday:20mg test C / evening 350iu's HCG
Saturday: 20mg test C
Sunday:20mg test C

I'd be lowering my overall weekly Test dose from 150mg to 140mg with this switch. Was thinking of making it easier and doing 500iu's twice a week but I'm thinking my current HCG protocol works so why change it. I should also have less estrogen spikes spreading it out a little more (over 3 days) and maybe I will no longer need to take a AI pill. Would there be a noticeable difference from a three day split or two days a week? Cause two day would be easier for me. Id do Monday morning and Thursday evening.

I could also stay with my M/W/F test protocol but just lower the test dose. But figured being low SHBG doing everyday may give me more benefits overall. What protocol is more likely to keep me from donating as much or at all? What do you guys think? Thanks

I think you're dose is too high for daily injection. But I was injecting 20 mg daily my levels became super high.

T serum >1500 range 264-916
FT 39.4 range 6.6-18.1
dhea 228.6 range 48.9-344.2
estradiol 43.7 range 8.0-35.0
shbg 74.9 range 19.4-76.4

Here's my labs at 16 mg daily.

testosterone serum 1117 ng/dL range 264 - 916
Free T 30.3 pg/mL range 6.6 - 18.1
DHEA - Sulfate 347.3 range 48.9 - 344.2
Estradiol, Sensitive 29.5 range 8.0 - 35.0
SHBG 48.8 range 19.3 - 76.4
HCT 47.9 range 37.5 - 51.0

Many say that over time your hematocrit will level out but that can take as long as two years, give or take. For me it never did level out. Many also say that you should pin the least amount of times that you have to to reach your feel good spot.

Depending on what your SHBG is, many have success pinning every day. There are several on the forum that have been successful doing that. If you pin daily you will probably want to lower you dose a little bit more than 10 mg a week. People tend to have higher testosterone numbers, both Total and Free, on less testosterone injected. If you are at 150 mg per week now and you drop down to 140 mg total on daily injections, that probably won't help your hematocrit. I would probably drop down to a 15 mg per day to see the lowered hematocrit and likely lowered E2. Just some thoughts. I am sure some of the guys on daily injections will chime in. Those are the guys that can guide you best on a daily protocol. I'm an every 3.5 injection day guy. Good luck in figuring it out.

Dr. Crisler claims daily HCG is the ticket now, and in your situation with HCT and Iron perhaps going daily for both would be desirable.

When we increase dosing to daily we see TT rise. I don't think it's because you have any more testosterone in your serum, it's because you are measuring it closer to injections. It becomes misleading. If you dosed 10mg every day and stopped for 3.5days after your last injection and then had labs I think you would find your serum would be the same as taking 35mg E3.5D and getting your labs just before your next shot. It's logical and simply about the numbers.

Yeah, if you are going to daily T, I'd just stack the daily HCG dose with it in the same syringe. I am doing this EOD and liking it.

Vince said:

I think you're dose is too high for daily injection. But I was injecting 20 mg daily my levels became super high.

T serum >1500 range 264-916
FT 39.4 range 6.6-18.1
dhea 228.6 range 48.9-344.2
estradiol 43.7 range 8.0-35.0
shbg 74.9 range 19.4-76.4

Here's my labs at 16 mg daily.

testosterone serum 1117 ng/dL range 264 - 916
Free T 30.3 pg/mL range 6.6 - 18.1
DHEA - Sulfate 347.3 range 48.9 - 344.2
Estradiol, Sensitive 29.5 range 8.0 - 35.0
SHBG 48.8 range 19.3 - 76.4
HCT 47.9 range 37.5 - 51.0

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I don't think your a normal case though, the TRT Gods have blessed you lol. Your FT is almost double the hi end range with a high shbg yet you take only 112mg a week. Some members said me being on 150mg a week was going to have me come back too high and it turned out fine. Was top of the FT range and my TT wasn't even out of the range. I wasn't off the charts like you are somehow.

Reading what RatBag said below makes sense to me. I've read from other members what matters is the total dose for the week. So 150mg didn't send me into the extreme range, breaking it down to a everyday dose should have the same effect. I figured I'd drop it a little as a safety cushion to 140mg. I'm not against lowering it more though after trying 20mg a day for 6 weeks and with labs results to see the effects.

MarkM said:

Many say that over time your hematocrit will level out but that can take as long as two years, give or take. For me it never did level out. Many also say that you should pin the least amount of times that you have to to reach your feel good spot.

Depending on what your SHBG is, many have success pinning every day. There are several on the forum that have been successful doing that. If you pin daily you will probably want to lower you dose a little bit more than 10 mg a week. People tend to have higher testosterone numbers, both Total and Free, on less testosterone injected. If you are at 150 mg per week now and you drop down to 140 mg total on daily injections, that probably won't help your hematocrit. I would probably drop down to a 15 mg per day to see the lowered hematocrit and likely lowered E2. Just some thoughts. I am sure some of the guys on daily injections will chime in. Those are the guys that can guide you best on a daily protocol. I'm an every 3.5 injection day guy. Good luck in figuring it out.

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I was hoping dividing my current dose (minus 10mg's) down to a everyday dose would help with my hematocrit enough. But I agree I may get even better results in regards to my hematocrit if I went lower like you suggested.

ratbag said:

Dr. Crisler claims daily HCG is the ticket now, and in your situation with HCT and Iron perhaps going daily for both would be desirable.

When we increase dosing to daily we see TT rise. I don't think it's because you have any more testosterone in your serum, it's because you are measuring it closer to injections. It becomes misleading. If you dosed 10mg every day and stopped for 3.5days after your last injection and then had labs I think you would find your serum would be the same as taking 35mg E3.5D and getting your labs just before your next shot. It's logical and simply about the numbers.

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I do remember reading that about Dr. Crisler saying that. I also remember reading though Dr. Saya saying 250-350 shots of HCG were around ideal. Wasn't too much that over sensitized the receptors in some people I believe and not enough to activate the usage of HCG (along those lines). I've read the sticky threads here also about HCG dosing. I'm not against trying everyday with the HCG though. Need to think about it the next few days and also give the PA at Defy a heads up to get the ok and start next week.

I agree with your theory. So would you say in a way doing daily pins you would get a clearer picture of your actual daily numbers?

Anyone here do daily HCG shots who before only did them 2 or 3 times a week or the other way? Feel better, worse or same?

Thanks for all the input everyone

So I decided to go to daily injections with the ok from Defy. Started July 23rd.

Test C 20mg Daily
HCG 150 IU's Daily
Stopped AI

I've have no complaints so far but that may be because I started supplementing with DHEA and Pregnenolone.

Started with the preg in the morning at 5mg and worked up to 25mg. I feel such a sense of well being I want to eat them like candy lol. I've been completely anxiety free again. I only stopped at 25mg cause I figured I didn't want to go too high or have too much build up in my system.

DHEA I started at 5mg at night and noticed no problems, so I worked that up to 25mg also. For the same reasons I decided to stay at that level till at least my next follow-up labs were I can see how much my DHEA-S went up to.

Also figured it would be good to stay at these doses to see how I feel as the weeks go on and my system adjust to them both and to my new protocol fully.

Is fertility not a concern for you? Because if I recall the main argument against those smaller, more frequent HCG doses is that it would not be sufficient to keep the sperm happy.

You make me want to try some pregnenolone lol. Are you testing for that or no? Because I believe that test is rather expensive and I think it was Gene who said it's not a very reliable test to boot. So maybe it's not all that necessary.

Kirk001 said:

Is fertility not a concern for you? Because if I recall the main argument against those smaller, more frequent HCG doses is that it would not be sufficient to keep the sperm happy.

You make me want to try some pregnenolone lol. Are you testing for that or no? Because I believe that test is rather expensive and I think it was Gene who said it's not a very reliable test to boot. So maybe it's not all that necessary.

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Fertility is not a main concern of mine but I definitely do not want to shut my balls down. I fill that's just not healthy since they do work. As far as the lower dose goes, I was hoping it would be enough to keep them happy producing the good hormones with the added benefit of no longer needing a AI. I'm not a anti-AI person but I do like simplicity (one less thing to take) and a part of me does wonder about long term usage of AI.

I have started noticing this week my "load" amount has slowly gone down though. My balls may be slightly smaller too, hard to get a reliable reading with my digital caliper lol. Figured I shouldn't rush to go back to my other HCG protocol of three 350iu shots a week in'till I give my body some more time to re-adjust. If it continues though or gets worse, I see myself going back to the three HCG shots a week. I feel based on Dr Saya and the HCG research he did which I'm sure you read 350 may be the sweet spot for me. I know others with success do two 500 shots a week which I would consider the highest dose I'd do in a single shot, so I could try that also since I've never tried that to see how it works for me.

I figured I have some time this month to think about what to do with the HCG and change it if I need. It'll either be the 3 shots of 350 or 2 shots of 500 a week. I do want to be on a set protocol by September so I'll be on the same protocol long enough for my next lab due date in late October.

The pregnenolone I didn't test for, for the exact reason you mentioned. I've heard others say the same thing also here. My only suggestion for anyone wanting to maybe have a more succesfull chance with it, start with a low 5mg dose like I did. I know for the first day I had kind of a headache and it felt like something was going on in my brain. By the end of the second day and the second dose of 5mg I had no negatives, which is when I started raising it by 5mg till I reached 25mg a day. Maybe that first day if I did pop a 25mg pill all at once it would have been too much to start and I would have been like others and say no thanks. All I know is I love it!!! lol. I feel so relaxed and anxiety free. I did the same thing when I started taking DHEA the following week which I take at night. Worked it up to 25mg and I'm enjoying a whole new level of relaxing deep sleep with awesome vivid dreams now. The DHEA I was in the middle of "in range" on lab work. I plan on sticking at 25mg for both cause I'd rather feel like this then take a chance of raising it more and giving my system too much and upsetting it, then having to figure out what my problem is. DHEA I may raise but it would only be after getting labs back and it showing I was still not at the top of the range.

Update:

I have continued with the preg and DHEA with good results. Been completely anxiety free. Which I have mentioned in this thread or another that my anxiety was starting up again and wasn't sure if it was from starting my thyroid NDT treatment. When I started with the preg the anxiety left. Was it timing of adjusting to the NDT or the Preg I started to take. I have to think it was the preg because within a two days I felt better.

Anyways as of right now I take one 25mg preg pill in the morning and one 25mg DHEA pill also. I take another 25mg DHEA pill in the early evening. I know I previously said I would wait till trying to take more DHEA but I saw a lot of people that take 50mg a day and figured I have been responding well so why not try it. Heard it can help my cortisol which may help my thyroid problem. Iv'e been doing this now for 2-3 weeks. Yesterday and today I tried a second dose of 25mg preg with my afternoon dose of DHEA. I feel calmer so far. So I will probably end up taking 50mg total each a day of preg and DHEA.

On the HCG side of things I went back to Mon Wed and Friday shots of 350IU's. I couldn't deal with the daily small shots. My loads continued to get smaller with my balls following too. Also didnt like having my balls hurt slightly again like they started to when I first started taking test with no HCG.

The only complaint I do have as I mentioned in my thyroid thread is my sweating problem. I've been soaking the back of my shirts lately. I do feel on the warm side all the time. Not sure whats causing it. I was thinking maybe its my estrogen but I'm not getting night sweats like I use. Also no water weight or bloating which I never suffered from. I also don't feel emotional so I don't think my estrogen is too high even though I haven't taken a AI in weeks since I didn't feel I needed too anymore since going to daily test shots. But maybe the larger three doses of HCG a week is raising my estrogen levels on the high side a little, compared to when I was trying smaller daily shots of HCG (150IU's).

I'd start taking my AI pills again but I only have .25mg pills. I feel if I take those twice a week like I use to with my old protocol it would be too much with my current protocol. Defy was fine with me trying no AI with the new protocol but that was doing daily small shots of HCG which I mentioned above did not work for me. I'd assume .125mg AI pills twice a week would work. I guess I could also try one .25mg AI pill a week. I'll wait till I get my sensitive estrogen test back.

Did anyone ever suffer from back sweating problems during the day and figure out what was causing it?

I would think you're overdosing on Preg and DHEA. I would have to think that it's raising your estradiol levels too much.

I used to sweat like crazy when my cortisol was too low. It's always a possibility.

ratbag said:

I used to sweat like crazy when my cortisol was too low. It's always a possibility.

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Interesting, I responded to you in my thyroid thread and noticed you mentioned getting my cortisol tested. Looks like I should definitely look into it. Does DHEA lower cortisol levels??? I know I read DHEA can effect cortisol levels. Maybe I'm taking too much?

Vince said:

I would think you're overdosing on Preg and DHEA. I would have to think that it's raising your estradiol levels too much.

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You feel 25mg each a day is okay? I originally wanted to go no higher then that but since I felt the positive results its hard not wanting to take more. I saw a couple members on here take 50mg each a day with no complaints, hence why I raised it. I could try this week not taking the afternoon dose of both and see how I feel in a week or so. If I feel the same I'll stay with the smaller dose. Maybe it will fix the sweating problems that have seem to gotten worse these last few weeks. I am very curious now if the sweating problems have to do with my cortisol levels as Ratbag mentioned. Iv'e never had it tested and I do have a thyroid problem so it would make sense to have them done.

I have always been known to sweat easily though doing little physical work for years. Never liked hot weather either for as long as I can remember. Way before even starting TRT. But lately I'm soaking shirts doing very little which isn't normal.

Not sure about DHEA but thyroid meds and TRT use cortisol and if your already low then you now have less than before.

I'm just wondering about your estradiol levels, with all the DHEA and Preg your supplementing. How much is E2 increasing.

Vince said:

I'm just wondering about your estradiol levels, with all the DHEA and Preg your supplementing. How much is E2 increasing.

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Well with the new protocol of daily test shots of 20mg and the 350iu's HCG m/w/f I don't show any water weight, bloating ect. That's with no AI. BUT I don't have raging hard ons when I wake up in the morning though anymore and I'd say my libido has gone down. I really didn't think about my E2 getting too high because I've been feeling calmer since starting the preg. Anxiety used to be such a problem with me that it didn't upset me that the libido went down a little. I'd say right now I have normal libido. I used to have to have sex with the wife everyday or take care of business myself. So the reduction in libido isn't such a bad thing and my wife gets a break. I also don't feel emotional like I want to cry over silly stuff that I hear some with high E2 have. I really don't feel like starting a AI based on a number if I don't have symptoms that need to be fix. Which I feel I don't have. Now me drenching shirts is annoying and would be a valid reason for me to think about starting a AI. But with what you said, I'm going to split my dose in half to 25mg each of preg and DHEA a day for this week to see how I feel and see if their is a difference with the sweating. It's a easier first approach.

On the other hand it has been very humid and hot this summer and as I have said, I've never been a fan of hot weather. I'm thinking the weather isn't helping but their is something else going on.

ratbag said:

Not sure about DHEA but thyroid meds and TRT use cortisol and if your already low then you now have less than before.

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Thanks,
I didn't know that. Looks like I should really do that cortisol test as soon as I can.

From my week on a lower dose of preg and dhea I notice the feeling of wellness went down a little. Remembering the preg was what gave me that feeling, this week I decided to go back to 50mg a day of preg but I will be staying at the lower 25mg dose a day of dhea. I agree with Vince that I can run into E2 problem if I take to much and I may not need that much since I was never very low. So I'll stay at 25mg and wait till I get labs again to see were I'm at. Preg can make dhea if I need more, I like the added feeling of wellness I feel and I read it can help low cortisol levels which I assume I have hence why the thyroid meds never worked right. So thats why I decided to go back to 50mg a day. Maybe I respond well to preg because I have a cortisol problem and its helping it and I don't realize it.

All I know I respond VERY well to preg and I'm wondering why. I lowered my zoloft dose to 25mg a day now for a few days and I'm having no problems. I actually feel completely anxiety free since starting preg and now raising it back to 50mg has helped more. I was going to wait to lower my zoloft dose after getting my thyroid straightened out but with how things are playing out it can be months before I figure out what to do and don't feel like waiting any longer.