1. #1

    Testicle atrophy even with HCG.

    I am on a 50mg of test cyp M/W/F. I also take 300 IU of HCG M/W/F. The vial was reconstituted 12,000IU. This is week 3 of my protocol.

    I have anastrozole but I have not taken it, as I was under direction to only take it if I experience high e2 symptoms, I have not.

    I have not had my first follow up blood work yet, but it's due soon. My clinic is defy, they're great.

    But yeah, the twins have definitely shrunk significantly but everything works fantastic, sex drive is immense etc etc.


    Currently the wife and I have 0 plans to have kids, so I would be ok not taking HCG.

    I know HCG is mainly to prevent testicular atrophy/fertility but it might also help boost test some because your body would still be sending signals to produce test, is that correct?

    Could an alternative be to ditch HCG, and discuss a testosterone dosage increase? I guess it all depends on the bloods, but I was going to bring up dropping the hcg since I was experiencing atrophy anyhow. I wanted to ask other fellow TRT patients first.

    Thanks for your time, please excuse me if I explained some stuff wrong. Definitely still trying to read up on everything to fully grasp everything.

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  3. #2
    So just to clarify, are you using 300iu of HCG 3x/ week, or just once? Is your total for HCG per week 900ii or 300iu?

  4. #3
    300iu 3 times a week, so 900 yes.

    I take 300iu with each .25ml of test

  5. #4
    Moderator Vince's Avatar
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    How long have you been on a TRT protocol. If you have testicular atrophy from TRT, you may have to increase the amount of HCG. I inject 500iu of HCG twice a week but it's different for everyone. Some members don't even use HCG.
    I am not a medical practitioner. Any suggestions I provide are not medical recommendations and are just my opinions. Please consult with your physician on any matters concerning your health.

  6. #5
    Member madman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PushrodV8 View Post
    I am on a 50mg of test cyp M/W/F. I also take 300 IU of HCG M/W/F. The vial was reconstituted 12,000IU. This is week 3 of my protocol.

    I have anastrozole but I have not taken it, as I was under direction to only take it if I experience high e2 symptoms, I have not.

    I have not had my first follow up blood work yet, but it's due soon. My clinic is defy, they're great.

    But yeah, the twins have definitely shrunk significantly but everything works fantastic, sex drive is immense etc etc.


    Currently the wife and I have 0 plans to have kids, so I would be ok not taking HCG.

    I know HCG is mainly to prevent testicular atrophy/fertility but it might also help boost test some because your body would still be sending signals to produce test, is that correct?

    Could an alternative be to ditch HCG, and discuss a testosterone dosage increase? I guess it all depends on the bloods, but I was going to bring up dropping the hcg since I was experiencing atrophy anyhow. I wanted to ask other fellow TRT patients first.

    Thanks for your time, please excuse me if I explained some stuff wrong. Definitely still trying to read up on everything to fully grasp everything.



    You are only on 3rd week of your protocol and your body is still producing endogenous testosterone it can take between 2-6 weeks for shutdown of the hpga and depending on dose of testosterone injected weekly (higher doses cause quicker suppression of endogenous levels) and your are also injecting exogenous testosterone hence what you are experiencing regarding intense libido will level off eventually as you are experiencing what one would call the honeymoon period.

    I am thinking you have lower shbg due to the M/W/F injection protocol and 50mg (3 times weekly) may very well put your testosterone levels into the high-normal physiological range.....it will take 6 weeks for your blood levels to stabilize and once blood work is done you will see how 150mg/week (50mg 3 times/week) protocol effects your total t/free t and e2 among other critical health markers.

    I would just keep using the hcg until you have bloods done as you just started your protocol.

    I feel it is best to start trt without the use of hcg or an aromatase inhibitor (unless pre-trt blood work shows elevated e2 and one is experiencing high e2 symptoms).....this would allow one to truly see how said testosterone dose effects ones total t, free t and e2 levels!

    You stated "could an alternative be to ditch HCG, and discuss a testosterone dose INCREASE".....you are only 3 weeks in what is the reasoning for suggesting this?

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    How long have you been on a TRT protocol. If you have testicular atrophy from TRT, you may have to increase the amount of HCG. I inject 500iu of HCG twice a week but it's different for everyone. Some members don't even use HCG.
    this is the end of week 3. However atrophy happened super fast.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by PushrodV8 View Post
    this is the end of week 3. However atrophy happened super fast.
    I believe that the atrophy normally occurs over a much longer period of time. Three weeks, that might be a record. Can't image that. Was it painful? Was it all of a sudden, like over night, or you just noticed it at the three week mark?

  9. #8
    Moderator Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkM View Post
    I believe that the atrophy normally occurs over a much longer period of time. Three weeks, that might be a record. Can't image that. Was it painful? Was it all of a sudden, like over night, or you just noticed it at the three week mark?
    I would have to agree, three weeks seems too fast.
    I am not a medical practitioner. Any suggestions I provide are not medical recommendations and are just my opinions. Please consult with your physician on any matters concerning your health.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkM View Post
    I believe that the atrophy normally occurs over a much longer period of time. Three weeks, that might be a record. Can't image that. Was it painful? Was it all of a sudden, like over night, or you just noticed it at the three week mark?
    I noticed it and the wife noticed. Definite shrinkage. I can feel a difference as well

  11. #10
    I wasn't on HCG for years but I definitely had atrophy. But it took years for me to notice. It was a slow process and one day I looked at "the boys" and thought "huh, you guys have lost some weight". I am on HCG now and really haven't noticed any improvement in the atrophy.
    Last edited by MarkM; 07-07-2018 at 04:35 PM.

  12. #11
    When my E was really high my sack was rather shrunken or drawn up tight(er) to the body. But I concur with those that say it's much too early to say anything at all and inspite of you and wife thinking you see it I'd call it psychosomatic or all in your head at this point in time.

  13. #12
    Yeah it can happen when hcg raises your E the shutdown can be higher than before for some people, and the boys can shrink up more. Hcg just does not always work that well for some people, or it may be the source. That was me on Hcg too.

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  15. #14
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    I did a lot of experimenting with HCG. The half-life of HCG is 24-36 hours. My original protocol was 500iu E3.5D. Because of the half-life, I decided to try 150iu ED. I then tried 250iu EOD, then tried 350iu MWF, then finally settled on 400iu MWF.

    With 150iu ED, my testicles shrank fairly significantly and had significantly reduced ejaculate volume.
    With 250iu EOD , no change.
    With 350iu MWF, they recovered a bit but did not reach full size.
    With 400iu MWF they fully recovered and ejaculate volume returned to normal.

    It appears (for me) that a dose below 400 is not enough to maintain testicular size.

    I have lowered my T dose as the 1200iu/week of HCG has increased my trough T beyond my comfortable target and increased my E2.

    I kept a very detailed log of my size, ejaculate volume, and how I felt (along with bloods).

  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by 30005Gator View Post
    I did a lot of experimenting with HCG. The half-life of HCG is 24-36 hours. My original protocol was 500iu E3.5D. Because of the half-life, I decided to try 150iu ED. I then tried 250iu EOD, then tried 350iu MWF, then finally settled on 400iu MWF.

    With 150iu ED, my testicles shrank fairly significantly and had significantly reduced ejaculate volume.
    With 250iu EOD , no change.
    With 350iu MWF, they recovered a bit but did not reach full size.
    With 400iu MWF they fully recovered and ejaculate volume returned to normal.

    It appears (for me) that a dose below 400 is not enough to maintain testicular size.

    I have lowered my T dose as the 1200iu/week of HCG has increased my trough T beyond my comfortable target and increased my E2.

    I kept a very detailed log of my size, ejaculate volume, and how I felt (along with bloods).
    God I love when people test things out intelligently like this. You're hard work and dedication to ball size and load volume does not go unappreciated lol. Jokes aside, this is awesome info. Everyone is obviously different, but I too tried to go to ED HCG injections and noticed some atrophy compared to EOD, while on the same dose. Not sure about load size. I've read multiple studies that say the leydig cells on the testicles need time to resensitize after an HCG injection to get max stimulation from a specific dose, so I think it has something to do with that. But it's confusing, because Dr. Crisler says he has good results with ED injections. Anyways, what brand of HCG do you use Gator?

  17. #16
    Moderator Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 30005Gator View Post
    I did a lot of experimenting with HCG. The half-life of HCG is 24-36 hours. My original protocol was 500iu E3.5D. Because of the half-life, I decided to try 150iu ED. I then tried 250iu EOD, then tried 350iu MWF, then finally settled on 400iu MWF.

    With 150iu ED, my testicles shrank fairly significantly and had significantly reduced ejaculate volume.
    With 250iu EOD , no change.
    With 350iu MWF, they recovered a bit but did not reach full size.
    With 400iu MWF they fully recovered and ejaculate volume returned to normal.

    It appears (for me) that a dose below 400 is not enough to maintain testicular size.

    I have lowered my T dose as the 1200iu/week of HCG has increased my trough T beyond my comfortable target and increased my E2.

    I kept a very detailed log of my size, ejaculate volume, and how I felt (along with bloods).
    If I'm understanding you right. You injected 500 IU of HCG every three and a half days, like what I'm doing. If you feel that 400 IU of HCG MWF works better for you. If that's true I may try it also, I'm having my consultation on Friday and I planning on bringing it up.
    I am not a medical practitioner. Any suggestions I provide are not medical recommendations and are just my opinions. Please consult with your physician on any matters concerning your health.

  18. #17
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    I get my HCG from Hallandale Pharmacy.

    I know some people laugh at the load discussions, but it's important to me (just feels better during ejaculation). I've found that Pygeum and Lecithin help as well.

  19. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    If I'm understanding you right. You injected 500 IU of HCG every three and a half days, like what I'm doing. If you feel that 400 IU of HCG MWF works better for you. If that's true I may try it also, I'm having my consultation on Friday and I planning on bringing it up.
    Yes, 400iu MWF seems to be the sweet spot for me. That extra dose seems to make a different (possibly the half-life).

  20. #19
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    I have said this several times: Doses under 500 IU are needed for 70% of men on HCG to respond while on TRT ( for HCG monotherapy at least 1500 IU 3 times per week). They have to reach that peak. Study data available on frequency shows that 3 times per week of HCG plus TRT was able to normalize sperm count on 70% of men. The 30% that did not respond well were older and on TRT the longest prior to adding HCG. Data from Lipshultz group at Baylor College of Medicine here in Houston.

    I would give myself a booster shot of 1000 IU of HCG and then continue with 500 IU twice per week two days after that booster shot. If in 3 weeks there is no normalization of my testicular size, I would stop HCG and carry on with TRT only.
    Last edited by Nelson Vergel; 07-11-2018 at 01:31 PM.

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by 30005Gator View Post
    I get my HCG from Hallandale Pharmacy.

    I know some people laugh at the load discussions, but it's important to me (just feels better during ejaculation). I've found that Pygeum and Lecithin help as well.
    Thanks for the reply about which brand you use. And ya some people don't care about load size or testicle size, which I understand. But for me testicle size definitely matters, and I completely agree, I also feel like orgasms are better when loads are larger.

  22. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman86 View Post
    Thanks for the reply about which brand you use. And ya some people don't care about load size or testicle size, which I understand. But for me testicle size definitely matters, and I completely agree, I also feel like orgasms are better when loads are larger.
    That, but there is also a primal/subconscious concern with women and load size. The larger the load, the better the mate (the reproduction drive from natural selection). This was confirmed by gf's (comments/complements in the past) and my wife through observation and discussion.

    I have (had) relatively large testicles and used to have pretty large loads. This all changed after a vasectomy (which I believe caused my HG). After starting TRT, the volume declined even more - steadily until it was mostly a sad dribble. Then one day about a month ago (after an HCG shot from a fresh vial and started using Pygeum and Lecithin) she told got "excited" because I had an old school rope-a-dope. That sparked a conversation and she told me that she used to "enjoy" having large loads that would drip out long after sex...she couldn't explain why, just that it turned her on and made her feel satisfied, and she didn't have that same feeling with the smaller volume.

    I know this is superficial, but I will do anything to help get my wife's libido anywhere close to where mine is now (finally). Haha. We had a pretty sad 4-5 years while I had low T and didn't know it...which caused her flame to burn out. Now mine is at 11 and she is trying to catch up.

  23. #22

    to 30005Gator

    Have you ever had any elevated Estradiol levels, if so, how high? Any experience with an AI? What was your protocol for that? My E raised to 64, doc wants me on AI, but I hate how it makes me feel. Any recommendations how how to lower my E levels?


    Quote Originally Posted by 30005Gator View Post
    I did a lot of experimenting with HCG. The half-life of HCG is 24-36 hours. My original protocol was 500iu E3.5D. Because of the half-life, I decided to try 150iu ED. I then tried 250iu EOD, then tried 350iu MWF, then finally settled on 400iu MWF.

    With 150iu ED, my testicles shrank fairly significantly and had significantly reduced ejaculate volume.
    With 250iu EOD , no change.
    With 350iu MWF, they recovered a bit but did not reach full size.
    With 400iu MWF they fully recovered and ejaculate volume returned to normal.

    It appears (for me) that a dose below 400 is not enough to maintain testicular size.

    I have lowered my T dose as the 1200iu/week of HCG has increased my trough T beyond my comfortable target and increased my E2.

    I kept a very detailed log of my size, ejaculate volume, and how I felt (along with bloods).

  24. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by 30005Gator View Post
    That, but there is also a primal/subconscious concern with women and load size. The larger the load, the better the mate (the reproduction drive from natural selection). This was confirmed by gf's (comments/complements in the past) and my wife through observation and discussion.

    I have (had) relatively large testicles and used to have pretty large loads. This all changed after a vasectomy (which I believe caused my HG). After starting TRT, the volume declined even more - steadily until it was mostly a sad dribble. Then one day about a month ago (after an HCG shot from a fresh vial and started using Pygeum and Lecithin) she told got "excited" because I had an old school rope-a-dope. That sparked a conversation and she told me that she used to "enjoy" having large loads that would drip out long after sex...she couldn't explain why, just that it turned her on and made her feel satisfied, and she didn't have that same feeling with the smaller volume.

    I know this is superficial, but I will do anything to help get my wife's libido anywhere close to where mine is now (finally). Haha. We had a pretty sad 4-5 years while I had low T and didn't know it...which caused her flame to burn out. Now mine is at 11 and she is trying to catch up.
    Hahaha, you’re fckn hilarious. I was literally laughing to myself while reading your reply, it was so in depth lol. But honestly I wish discussions like this happened more often. I love talking about stuff that most people would be uncomfortable with. Nothing should be off limits imo. For instance, was watching an Ali Wong comedy special, and she was talking about how she always likes to sniff her fingers after scratching her crotch. And I thought to myself, I always do that! She explained how it was due to evolution. We get the urge to sniff afterwards probably because our ancestors would do that to smell if something was wrong down there. They didn’t have modern medicine to diagnose things like we do now. I bring that up because I think your evolutionary interpretation of what your wife said about liking big loads is probably spot on. It most likely has to do with women throughout evolution correlating bigger loads with fertility. Its probably safe to assume a lot of women subconsciously, or even consciously, like big testicles as well, for the same reason. I actually know this bisexual girl that’s pretty much lesbian now, that said she didn’t really like men that much, but for some reason just loves their balls. For some reason big balls just turned her on.

    So your libido is at an 11 while on 1200iu’s of HCG per week? Was your libido lower while on lower doses of HCG?

  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Executive7 View Post
    Have you ever had any elevated Estradiol levels, if so, how high? Any experience with an AI? What was your protocol for that? My E raised to 64, doc wants me on AI, but I hate how it makes me feel. Any recommendations how how to lower my E levels?
    So even with an E2 of 64 your didnít feel good once you started an AI? What dose were you started on?

  26. #25
    I feel great in regard to T-levels. They were 1150 and I've never felt better, but when the doc saw my E levels at 64 she panicked and said we have to get that down immediately, so she put me on 1mg of Arimidex EVERY DAY and 10mg of Tamoxifin EVERY DAY. I didn't like the side effects from the AI and the Tamoxifin, side effects included headache, blurred vision, roller coaster of tiredness, and just an overall "weird" feeling. These side effects overpowered the positive results I was experiencing with the elevated T levels. The Tamoxifin was to prevent gyno, thankfully I've yet to have any warning symptoms of gyno, but she was scared at my E being too high.

  27. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Executive7 View Post
    she put me on 1mg of Arimidex EVERY DAY and 10mg of Tamoxifin EVERY DAY. I didn't like the side effects from the AI and the Tamoxifin, side effects included headache, blurred vision, roller coaster of tiredness, and just an overall "weird" feeling.
    Oh boy...I would bet you wouldnít like the side effects of THAT regimen...women with breast cancer (whom are the only ones where that regimen would be appropriate) donít like the side effects either!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman86 View Post
    Hahaha, you’re fckn hilarious. I was literally laughing to myself while reading your reply, it was so in depth lol. But honestly I wish discussions like this happened more often. I love talking about stuff that most people would be uncomfortable with. Nothing should be off limits imo. For instance, was watching an Ali Wong comedy special, and she was talking about how she always likes to sniff her fingers after scratching her crotch. And I thought to myself, I always do that! She explained how it was due to evolution. We get the urge to sniff afterwards probably because our ancestors would do that to smell if something was wrong down there. They didn’t have modern medicine to diagnose things like we do now. I bring that up because I think your evolutionary interpretation of what your wife said about liking big loads is probably spot on. It most likely has to do with women throughout evolution correlating bigger loads with fertility. Its probably safe to assume a lot of women subconsciously, or even consciously, like big testicles as well, for the same reason. I actually know this bisexual girl that’s pretty much lesbian now, that said she didn’t really like men that much, but for some reason just loves their balls. For some reason big balls just turned her on.

    So your libido is at an 11 while on 1200iu’s of HCG per week? Was your libido lower while on lower doses of HCG?
    Exactly!! I studied the root of attraction in my undergrad at the U of Florida (hence the Gator). It's amazing how much our primal intuition about reproduction drives us (e.g., men favoring young women, women favoring tall/dark/handsome/successful men, women being more accepting of a "physical only" affair but not being able to deal with an "emotional affair" and visa-versa for men, etc).

    That is REALLY interesting that the bi/gay friend was drawn towards larger testicles. That lines up with my theory. That being said, I think that women in a long-term committed relationship put less emphasis on this...but only if they are confident that their mate can impregnate them.

    My libido is at an 11 with 100mg Test Cyp E3.5D and 400ius of HCG MWF. My trough total is at 1,200. I am going to lower my test to 80mg E3.5D. But the transformation has been unbelievable. I look at women like I did in my 20's. I notice every curve and image having them. I am lucky in that my wife has an amazing body (even after three kids). I can't keep my eyes and hands off of her. I went for years not even thinking about any of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Executive7 View Post
    I feel great in regard to T-levels. They were 1150 and I've never felt better, but when the doc saw my E levels at 64 she panicked and said we have to get that down immediately, so she put me on 1mg of Arimidex EVERY DAY and 10mg of Tamoxifin EVERY DAY. I didn't like the side effects from the AI and the Tamoxifin, side effects included headache, blurred vision, roller coaster of tiredness, and just an overall "weird" feeling. These side effects overpowered the positive results I was experiencing with the elevated T levels. The Tamoxifin was to prevent gyno, thankfully I've yet to have any warning symptoms of gyno, but she was scared at my E being too high.
    WHAT?!?!? 1mg of a'dex every day?? You will crash your E2 for sure, and that is MUCH worse than 64. I would strongly recommend that you don't do that. Maybe start with 0.5mg twice a week. A'dex is very powerful. I crashed my E2 and felt worse than I did before starting TRT.

  30. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Justin Saya, MD View Post
    Oh boy...I would bet you wouldn’t like the side effects of THAT regimen...women with breast cancer (whom are the only ones where that regimen would be appropriate) don’t like the side effects either!
    Exactly, your Dr is going to put you into a land of no return.

  31. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by 30005Gator View Post
    Exactly!! I studied the root of attraction in my undergrad at the U of Florida (hence the Gator). It's amazing how much our primal intuition about reproduction drives us (e.g., men favoring young women, women favoring tall/dark/handsome/successful men, women being more accepting of a "physical only" affair but not being able to deal with an "emotional affair" and visa-versa for men, etc).

    That is REALLY interesting that the bi/gay friend was drawn towards larger testicles. That lines up with my theory. That being said, I think that women in a long-term committed relationship put less emphasis on this...but only if they are confident that their mate can impregnate them.

    My libido is at an 11 with 100mg Test Cyp E3.5D and 400ius of HCG MWF. My trough total is at 1,200. I am going to lower my test to 80mg E3.5D. But the transformation has been unbelievable. I look at women like I did in my 20's. I notice every curve and image having them. I am lucky in that my wife has an amazing body (even after three kids). I can't keep my eyes and hands off of her. I went for years not even thinking about any of this.
    Ya all that evolutionary stuff is fascinating to me! I could go on about it for days. So you said you had to lower your T dose when you went up to 1200iuís/ week, did you lower your T down to 100mg, or was your blood work while on the 100mg and going down to 80mg is the lowering you were talking about? Also do you take any AI?

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