8 months progress report. Really could use some help and advice.

FeelingLost · Jun 3, 2018

Basic stats:
will be turning 65 in November.
5'9" 190lbs
TRT protocol T cyp subQ 120/wk M/W/F, 400 HCG M/T, Ai .125 if I feel the need.
Workout 4 days a week at a gym 90 minutes, ride a mtnbike ~30 miles a week.

Diet is clean but carbs and fats all over the place. I've tried both high fat low carbs and low fat high carbs.
Protein is alway 160-180g /day. I can look at a cupcake and gain weigh so I have to be very careful about my total daily calories.

I have a Defy 6 month protocol teleconference coming up at the end of July. I feel my TRT protocol is perfect. I've been higher and lower. I'm in my sweet spot. However I believe it is time to start a conversation about anti aging peptides. Something more than just TRT.

I am unhappy with my over all fitness progress given the work I put in and I am sure it is age related.
I have tried high T trough 1175 and absolutely hated it. The increase in libido is too much for me and my wife.
She is also a Defy patient so I have not been selfish an left her out of the equation.
Having the libido of a 20 year old has never been my goal. In fact it was just a flipping side effect of my journey to getting fit and healthy.

I joined a gym 8 months ago and here is a before and after shot 8 months in. I've also included two current meal plans(high fat low carb) to show
what I currently eat.

My question to the group is do you have any experience with peptides for anti aging?

I am not looking to abusing steroids or get into AAS I'd like some talking point I can ask Defy about.
They are an anti aging clinic not just TRT. One peptide that has peaked my interst is Sermorelin.

Anyone have experience with this peptide? Are there others I should investigate.

Well if you made it this far thank you for taking an interest.
I would appreciate any advice or suggestions.

Nashtide · Jun 3, 2018

You say you are unhappy with your current fitness but don't mention your fitness goals. More muscle? Less fat? More strength? You also don't really say what you're doing at the gym. I see guys spend more time talking or texting than lifting. So the amount of time at the gym doesn't really help us. How hard do you work when you are at the gym? What kind of routine do you use? Do you change things up? As far as the mountain biking goes, sometimes steady state cardio becomes something we adapt to and it no longer brings results.

FeelingLost · Jun 3, 2018

Nashtide said:
You say you are unhappy with your current fitness but don't mention your fitness goals. More muscle? Less fat? More strength? You also don't really say what you're doing at the gym. I see guys spend more time talking or texting than lifting. So the amount of time at the gym doesn't really help us. How hard do you work when you are at the gym? What kind of routine do you use? Do you change things up? As far as the mountain biking goes, sometimes steady state cardio becomes something we adapt to and it no longer brings results.

Hi Nashtide, thank you for the questions.
I am looking for a little bit more bulk and definition along with a lot less over all fat.
Being retired I spend 3 hours at the gym 4 days a week. It is a social event for me I am never in a hurry. I don't own a smart phone I have no problems remembering my exercise routine basicly I can't stand them.
But 90 minutes of that time is on serious exersize. I do push myself and I am always increasing the load or number of reps.

I divide my workouts into upper and lower days. Upper being pecks, traps, lats, delts, tri and bi.
Lower abs, oblique, hamstrings, calves and quads.
Do to my age and worry of joint and tendon injury I opt for 6 set of 12-16 reps pretty much to failure.
I don't do the big 3 for fear of lower back injury I opt for machines that isolate the lower back keeping it out of the exersize.
This allows me to go much heavier I also use wrist straps for the same reason. No way can I farmers walk/shoulder shrug 75# dumbells with my grip.

If you think its worthwhile I can list my detailed gym protocol.

Vince · Jun 4, 2018

I triedinjecting 500mcg of Sermorelin Acetate daily, a lower dose because of the cost. I planned to be on that amount for a full year. Here's my post when I first started. http://www.excelmale.com/showthread....GF-1-test-(Lab)

Nashtide · Jun 4, 2018

I'll give you my thoughts on leanness first. You have a very powerful, manly looking body. It reminds me of a bare knuckle fighter from the 1920's. So bulk or muscle is not your main problem IMO. At our ages, there is no way to be 5'9" and 190lbs and be lean. So the truth is, you will need to drop at least 15lbs of fat. Leanness changes definition with age. At 25, a guy needs to be sub 15% bf to be lean. At our ages, anything south of 20% bf will be lean. Not six pack lean, but head turning lean for sure. So, for you to drop 15lbs of fat while maintaining lbm, will require a change in diet. You will need to be in a 200-300 calorie deficit most days. I'm not a details guy, so I don't count calories or macros. I simply eat clean and manipulate my carb intake. I go very low carbs on off days and moderate carbs on gym days. I eat lots of protein and good fats every day and I don't eat anything after dinner at 6:15pm. That's it. I dropped 35lbs and have maintained that weight for three years. Now, on the exercise front, you need to incorporate some HIIT and/or Tabata into your workouts. The metabolic advantages of this type of exercise is huge compared to steady state cardio. The trick is to find a fun exercise or routine that you'll stick with. I can't overemphasize the fat burning that occurs when you use these methods regularly. Lastly, you need to find a decent body analyzer. A machine that measures bf, lbm, etc. My gym has the InBody machine. I know these machines can be off a little, but your not using it to get exact numbers, you are using it to track progress. I use the same machine under the same conditions once per month to monitor progress. Am I losing fat? Am I gaining or maintaining lbm? Etc. I hope this helps. BTW, I use the heavy bag as my HIIT and Tabata workout. I know it revs my metabolism because if I don't shower or swim soon after I sweat like a pig for an hour after I'm finished.

FeelingLost · Jun 4, 2018

Vince said:
I triedinjecting 500mcg of Sermorelin Acetate daily, a lower dose because of the cost. I planned to be on that amount for a full year. Here's my post when I first started. http://www.excelmale.com/showthread....GF-1-test-(Lab)

HI Vince thank you for the link to your thread. So you stopped using it because your blood test showed no improvement? Do you think the better sleep was a placebo effect?
Have you seen Nelsons webner slides on peptides. page 34 might be of interest to you. see post 2 the pdf. page 34
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?14588-Increase-your-own-growth-hormone-Slide-Handout

Blackhawk · Jun 4, 2018

In terms of hypertrophy, (" a little more bulk") your 12-16 rep sets are not helping. You need to go less sets, heavier weight, lower reps. I am a very hard gainer and it is the only way I actually gain muscle mass.

from: https://www.muscleforlife.com/guide-to-muscle-hypertrophy-muscle-growth

High-rep, low-load training appears to preferentially stimulate type I muscle fiber and low-rep, high-load type II.
This would help explain why research shows that emphasizing heavy weights (80%+ of 1RM) in your training is superior to lighter weights for muscle building purposes.
For example, one well-designed study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4562558/ published earlier this year separated 33 physically active, resistance-trained men into two groups:

A high-volume, moderate-intensity group that did 4 workouts per week consisting of 4 sets per exercise in the 10 to 12 rep range (70% of 1RM).
A moderate-volume, high-intensity group that did 4 workouts per week consisting of 4 sets per exercise in the 3 to 5 rep range (90% of 1RM).

Both groups did the same exercises (which included the bench press, back squat, deadlift, and seated shoulder press), and both were instructed to maintain their normal eating habits (which was monitored with food diaries).
And the result?
After 8 weeks of training, scientists found that the high-intensity group gained significantly more muscle and strength than the high-volume group.
It's no surprise that the high-intensity group gained more strength, but many people wouldn't have expected them to gain more muscle as well.
Researchers cite two main reasons for why the heavier training beat out the lighter:
1. Higher amounts of mechanical stress imposed on the muscles.
The high-volume training, on the other hand, caused higher amounts of metabolic stress.
2. Greater activation of muscle fibers.
And this, in turn, results in a greater adaptation across a larger percentage of the muscle tissue.

Also agree with nashtide about HIIT. Whenever I get into the routine, my metabolism kicks in high gear and though I have very little to lose, I lose fat for sure.

Another general comment, you seem quite healthy, but eat your vegetables. It looks like you eat almost none. Supplements are no substitute.

Vince · Jun 4, 2018

Nashtide said:
I'll give you my thoughts on leanness first. You have a very powerful, manly looking body. It reminds me of a bare knuckle fighter from the 1920's. So bulk or muscle is not your main problem IMO. At our ages, there is no way to be 5'9" and 190lbs and be lean. So the truth is, you will need to drop at least 15lbs of fat. Leanness changes definition with age. At 25, a guy needs to be sub 15% bf to be lean. At our ages, anything south of 20% bf will be lean. Not six pack lean, but head turning lean for sure. So, for you to drop 15lbs of fat while maintaining lbm, will require a change in diet. You will need to be in a 200-300 calorie deficit most days. I'm not a details guy, so I don't count calories or macros. I simply eat clean and manipulate my carb intake. I go very low carbs on off days and moderate carbs on gym days. I eat lots of protein and good fats every day and I don't eat anything after dinner at 6:15pm. That's it. I dropped 35lbs and have maintained that weight for three years. Now, on the exercise front, you need to incorporate some HIIT and/or Tabata into your workouts. The metabolic advantages of this type of exercise is huge compared to steady state cardio. The trick is to find a fun exercise or routine that you'll stick with. I can't overemphasize the fat burning that occurs when you use these methods regularly. Lastly, you need to find a decent body analyzer. A machine that measures bf, lbm, etc. My gym has the InBody machine. I know these machines can be off a little, but your not using it to get exact numbers, you are using it to track progress. I use the same machine under the same conditions once per month to monitor progress. Am I losing fat? Am I gaining or maintaining lbm? Etc. I hope this helps. BTW, I use the heavy bag as my HIIT and Tabata workout. I know it revs my metabolism because if I don't shower or swim soon after I sweat like a pig for an hour after I'm finished.

I went on low carb when I was 55 on the recommendation of my doctor to improve my lipid panel, I'm 63 now. Boy did it work, I can't believe what a difference going from low-fat to low carb. The added benefit was being able to control my appetite with healthy fats.

FeelingLost · Jun 4, 2018

Nashtide said:
I'll give you my thoughts on leanness first. You have a very powerful, manly looking body. It reminds me of a bare knuckle fighter from the 1920's. So bulk or muscle is not your main problem IMO. At our ages, there is no way to be 5'9" and 190lbs and be lean. So the truth is, you will need to drop at least 15lbs of fat. Leanness changes definition with age. At 25, a guy needs to be sub 15% bf to be lean. At our ages, anything south of 20% bf will be lean. Not six pack lean, but head turning lean for sure. So, for you to drop 15lbs of fat while maintaining lbm, will require a change in diet. You will need to be in a 200-300 calorie deficit most days. I'm not a details guy, so I don't count calories or macros. I simply eat clean and manipulate my carb intake. I go very low carbs on off days and moderate carbs on gym days. I eat lots of protein and good fats every day and I don't eat anything after dinner at 6:15pm. That's it. I dropped 35lbs and have maintained that weight for three years. Now, on the exercise front, you need to incorporate some HIIT and/or Tabata into your workouts. The metabolic advantages of this type of exercise is huge compared to steady state cardio. The trick is to find a fun exercise or routine that you'll stick with. I can't overemphasize the fat burning that occurs when you use these methods regularly. Lastly, you need to find a decent body analyzer. A machine that measures bf, lbm, etc. My gym has the InBody machine. I know these machines can be off a little, but your not using it to get exact numbers, you are using it to track progress. I use the same machine under the same conditions once per month to monitor progress. Am I losing fat? Am I gaining or maintaining lbm? Etc. I hope this helps. BTW, I use the heavy bag as my HIIT and Tabata workout. I know it revs my metabolism because if I don't shower or swim soon after I sweat like a pig for an hour after I'm finished.

Thank you Nashtide,
Yes I believe if I could lose ~15# of fat without killing my muscle gains I would be where I want to be.
Under my 1" layer of body fat I am pretty hard. I believe its the 15 years of mtn biking in Colorado.
These trails beat you to death. Finding something with HIIT could be challenging for me I don't do well in the fast-twitch area. I have always been an endurance kind of guys. I can climb/pedal a 6% grade for 2 hours without resting. Ask me to sprint 100 yds and I am on the ground gasping for breath.

Nashtide · Jun 4, 2018

FeelingLost said:
Thank you Nashtide,
I yes I believe if I could lose ~15# of fat without killing my muscle gains I would be where I want to be.
Under my 1" layer of body fat I am pretty hard. I believe its the 15 years of mtn biking in Colorado.
These trails beat you to death.

It's not hard to drop 15lbs of fat. It just takes a little purposeful thought. Reduce calories by eating a little less than you currently eat. Manipulate carbs by reducing them on off days to almost none then moderately on work days. Then move from stead state cardio to HIIT and you'll be buying new pants before you know it. Excuses are the only thing preventing you from hitting your goals.

As as far as hypertrophy goes. I just use a good program and work it hard for about 8 weeks then I change. Our bodies adapt to the stress and need change. I also fool around with rep ranges and weight. I see benefits from both heavy weight low rep and lighter weight higher rep exercises.

Blackhawk · Jun 4, 2018

FL, it s great seeing that you are doing so well! I think your username "FeelingLost" could use a revision. Perhaps "The forum member formerly known as FeelingLost"!

Sean Mosher · Jun 4, 2018

Nelson recently just did a video on Peptides and I know Jay Campbell addresses them in his book and on his podcast, which ones work best for your specific goals.

FeelingLost · Jun 4, 2018

Vince said:
I triedinjecting 500mcg of Sermorelin Acetate daily, a lower dose because of the cost. I planned to be on that amount for a full year. Here's my post when I first started. http://www.excelmale.com/showthread....GF-1-test-(Lab)

Hi again Vince, Well I may have found out why sermorelin did not work for you and it probably won't work for me either. It's our age. We are both over 60.

I hope Nelson does not mind me sharing a page from his presentation.
Look at the paragraph I circled in RED. How do you read this? Do you have to be younger than 50 and have a strong working pituitary.

Continuing thru Nelsons presentation, which is a dam good read if you guys are interested in peptides for anti aging, it looks like Ipamorelin is a better choice for us guys over 60.

Blackhawk · Jun 4, 2018

Hmm, Dr Saya suggested sermorelin or Ipamorelin for me, leaning pretty heavily towards the latter.

They increase IGF-1 and with higher IGF-1 increasing risk for prostate cancer, and my PSA level, I declined.

FeelingLost · Jun 4, 2018

Blackhawk said:
In terms of hypertrophy, (" a little more bulk") your 12-16 rep sets are not helping. You need to go less sets, heavier weight, lower reps. I am a very hard gainer and it is the only way I actually gain muscle mass.

snip...

Another general comment, you seem quite healthy, but eat your vegetables. It looks like you eat almost none. Supplements are no substitute.

I have attempted 6-8 reps but I don't seem to get a pump from them or the feeling that work has been done. I don't feel fatigued.
Maybe it's because I am so new to gyms and weight lifting but I don't feel blood filling any of my muscles until about the 4 set of 12.
So the 4th 5th and 6th sets are really important to me. Theres a pump, I'm fatigued and sore the next day. Its the only time I feel like growth is happening.

I'm not arguing with you just explaining what happens to me in the gym as I learn how all this stuff works.

I was extremely careful for the first 5-6weeks when I started out I worried about tendons and joints.
But now I am pushing some pretty heavy weights, for me anyway. I am worried if I go heavier I will develop shoulder problems.
Post workout shoulder pain is my current limiting factor.

On eating veggies or carbs for that matter. 6 or so months ago I had a big thread going on my diet where I was mostly eating protien and carbs almost no good or bad fats.
It was determined during that thread I should cut the carbs back and up my good fats which is what I have been doing ever since that discussion. I do eat veggies they are all raw and in my giant lunch salad that I eat every day. I've been working with Madman via PM's and have come up with something new to try which is back to eating low GI carbs and cutting the fats. I am willing to try that again if it will help me with my muscle gains. Like I saif before I have trouble getting a muscle pump and carbs are suppose to help that.

So the plan right now is up the carbs but also watch the daily calories as Nashtide suggests.

Nashtide · Jun 4, 2018

FeelingLost said:
I have attempted 6-8 reps but I don't seem to get a pump from them or the feeling that work has been done. I don't feel fatigued.
Maybe it's because I am so new to gyms and weight lifting but I don't feel blood filling any of my muscles until about the 4 set of 12.
So the 4th 5th and 6th sets are really important to me. Theres a pump, I'm fatigued and sore the next day. Its the only time I feel like growth is happening.

I'm not arguing with you just explaining what happens to me in the gym as I learn how all this stuff works.

I was extremely careful for the first 5-6weeks when I started out I worried about tendons and joints.
But now I am pushing some pretty heavy weights, for me anyway. I am worried if I go heavier I will develop shoulder problems.
Post workout shoulder pain is my current limiting factor.

On eating veggies or carbs for that matter. 6 or so months ago I had a big thread going on my diet where I was mostly eating protien and carbs almost no good or bad fats.
It was determined during that thread I should cut the carbs back and up my good fats which is what I have been doing ever since that discussion. I do eat veggies they are all raw and in my giant lunch salad that I eat every day. I've been working with Madman via PM's and have come up with something new to try which is back to eating low GI carbs and cutting the fats. I am willing to try that again if it will help me with my muscle gains. Like I saif before I have trouble getting a muscle pump and carbs are suppose to help that.

So the plan right now is up the carbs but also watch the daily calories as Nashtide suggests.

A great plan that incorporates heavy weights and a pump are rest-pause sets. You employ this as the last set of a particular exercise. Let's say shoulder presses as an example. You load the machine with a weight you can only lift for 6 reps. So you rep out at 6. Then rest for 15 seconds and bang out as many more reps as you can. Usually 3. Rest 15 seconds and get as many reps as possible. Usually 3 again. Repeat this process until you can only get 2 reps. This works great as all the reps after the initial 6 are real meaningful reps. Be careful, this is super challenging for recovery.

FeelingLost · Jun 4, 2018

Blackhawk said:
Hmm, Dr Saya suggested sermorelin or Ipamorelin for me, leaning pretty heavily towards the latter.

They increase IGF-1 and with higher IGF-1 increasing risk for prostate cancer, and my PSA level, I declined.

I remember you having high PSA reading all the way back to when you first joined the forum. I assume you've had a colonoscopy and possibly other test all with good results(no signs of cancer).

As I understand it these peptides are used to tell your pituitary gland to produce growth hormone that in turn allows you to heal faster. I could see if one has cancer cells in their body this growth hormone could fuel its growth. It is probably real important to know you are cancer free before triggering your body to produce growth hormone.

Mountain Man · Jun 5, 2018

I think you are doing great. 8 months is not really that long a time, although it may seem to be. It is very hard to build lean muscle at any age and the combo of larger muscle with leaning out is near impossible. It may not be the TRT dosing, but a matter of enjoying the journey. You look great. I empathize with the idea of looking better, but we still have to consider genetics and what nature gave us. Your height and weight makes you more of a powerlifting type of body. Getting to cut will come at a cost as you may not be working with what nature gave you. I'd assume you look better in clothing than you did, and that's a plus. I wish I did. I never get a second notice unless I am in a tank top or shirtless, being lean by nature. You and I weigh the same, but at 6'0 I am not noticed. You, on the other hand, probably look rugged in clothes. I look like a fit guy and people think I weigh a buck 75. Bugs me that I need to be half naked to get noticed. We all have our insecurities.

The sex thing is a conundrum for sure. Your wife seems to be on board and that is huge. I don't know what I would do if I did not have a willing and attractive wife. That's a huge plus too. I think you are doing great and it is even greater you have made these improvements in a short time. Tweak some things for sure, but don't get discouraged. You got another 30 years to work at this.

Vince · Jun 5, 2018

FeelingLost said:
Hi again Vince, Well I may have found out why sermorelin did not work for you and it probably won't work for me either. It's our age. We are both over 60.

I hope Nelson does not mind me sharing a page from his presentation.
Look at the paragraph I circled in RED. How do you read this? Do you have to be younger than 50 and have a strong working pituitary.
Continuing thru Nelsons presentation, which is a dam good read if you guys are interested in peptides for anti aging, it looks like Ipamorelin is a better choice for us guys over 60.

It was a pain for me to inject every night before bed, at night I get really tired and just want to go to sleep. I was disappointed in sermorelin.

Nashtide · Jun 5, 2018

Mountain Man said:
I think you are doing great. 8 months is not really that long a time, although it may seem to be. It is very hard to build lean muscle at any age and the combo of larger muscle with leaning out is near impossible. It may not be the TRT dosing, but a matter of enjoying the journey. You look great. I empathize with the idea of looking better, but we still have to consider genetics and what nature gave us. Your height and weight makes you more of a powerlifting type of body. Getting to cut will come at a cost as you may not be working with what nature gave you. I'd assume you look better in clothing than you did, and that's a plus. I wish I did. I never get a second notice unless I am in a tank top or shirtless, being lean by nature. You and I weigh the same, but at 6'0 I am not noticed. You, on the other hand, probably look rugged in clothes. I look like a fit guy and people think I weigh a buck 75. Bugs me that I need to be half naked to get noticed. We all have our insecurities.

The sex thing is a conundrum for sure. Your wife seems to be on board and that is huge. I don't know what I would do if I did not have a willing and attractive wife. That's a huge plus too. I think you are doing great and it is even greater you have made these improvements in a short time. Tweak some things for sure, but don't get discouraged. You got another 30 years to work at this.

Hey MM I'm having a completely different experience. I'm lean with good muscular development and I've never been this popular in my life. I'm 57. Being lean at my age makes me standout. Most other guys are sporting an nice gut. Are you wearing the correct clothes? Every pair of pants and jeans I own are slim fit. All of my button down shirts are either tailored or mtm. In my experience, most woman prefer trim and fit over bodybuilding types. At least that's been my experience with woman over 40.

8 months progress report. Really could use some help and advice.

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