TRT and effect on Thyroid, E2, Cortisol, DHEA, LH, FSH, etc... and Test Esters.

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BillyJ03z

Active Member
Im 44 yrs old (male), I have been on TRT for about 8 yrs (originally starting with Test Cyp @ 100mg 2xwk (200mg total), no AI.... I got on TRT due to low energy/fatigue feeling and mild depression/low motivation which seemed to start when I was 29/30yrs old.

My pre-TRT natural levels regarding test/free test were always low-mid to low normal, SHBG was in 40% normal range, E2 mid range normal/never an issue, DHEA was in top of range, Thyroid panel always was high normal FT3, mid normal FT4, etc..

I was never a big AAS user prior to TRT.. (had a couple mild cycles)
-When I was 30 I did a 12 wk TBol only cycle in which I gained about 20lbs of pure muscle and my blood labs were perfect (lipid, Test, Thyroid, etc.).. I felt incredible mood wise, strength wise, libido was awesome...
-When I was 31, I did a 4-5 month Test Prop cycle no AI (30mg ed) and proper recovery protocol, and once again blood panels remained perfect throughout.. Once again, I felt incredible mood wise, good strength, good libido, etc...

I basically got on TRT to feel like I did when I was using Tbol and Test Prop... However, since being on TRT I have never come close to feeling good, infact I feel worse than before... My Test/Free Test has increased to top levels, E2 has been good with no issues except for the time I added DHEA and it spiked my E2 (had to use AI), my SHBG has dropped to very bottom of range/sometimes below, my Thryoid panel has worsened.. My Total T4, Free T4 has dropped from mid range to very bottom of range, My Total T3 has dropped a little, Free T3 has remained same top of range... DHEA is now under the bottom of range, I now have bad hypo symptoms and my lipid panels had become out of whack.

about 2-3 months ago I readjusted my TRT protocol and I now inject 3x wk/ Test Cyp 40mg (120mg total) and my lipid panels have become back in normal range, my Total Test is mid-range, Free Test top of range, SHBG has increased from below bottom range to 20-30% of normal range, but my Thyroid panels total/Free T4 remain bottom range, and FT3 remains top of range..... my DHEA increased back into bottom 5-10% of range, My LH/FSH is still under normal range(expected with TRT).... I feel a little bit better but hypo symptoms still remain.

I'm wondering if the longer Esters of the Cyp has some sort of negative effect for me as for when in the past when using Test Prop @ 30mg/ed I felt great, blood panels remained great, did not need an AI and my Thyroid T4/FT4 levels remained the same at mid-range during the 4-5 months of use....Im thinking of changing Test Cyp to Prop since I am already injecting 3xwk... Test Prop 40mg EOD is what I'm thinking...

I have been doing a lot of research all over the net and from what I am reading is that TRT has an effect on lowering Thyroid (especially T4/FT4), and may have negative effect on cortisol (as evidenced by my DHEA drop). I'm thinking I was possibly borderline sub-clinical Hypo and Trt pushed me into full hypo..

PS- I am seeing TRT users report that adding low dose of HCG (150-200iu eod) have had their thyroid panels increase and mood, etc.... could it be that simple as the missing link is HCG... supposedly HCG closely mimics TSH and kicks in other metabolic pathways that get shutdown/deregulated by exogenous test.

thoughts?
 
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Defy Medical TRT clinic doctor

Blackhawk

Member
Your accounting of lab values is not specific. While you may feel descriptions like "20-30%" of range are useful, this is not the same as posting actual lab values and ranges. People here can give much more specific advice based on actual values/ranges.

Also are you getting the sensitive LC/MS E2 test or the wrong Roche ECLIA test?

You also do not state when you have blood drawn in relation to injections i.e. are you tested at trough?

Your SHBG sounds low, if so you would benefit from frequent injections daily or every other day. And again with actual numbers it could be evident that you would do better on lower dosage to keep free T in range without being too high which can provoke undesirable symptoms.

TRT is indeed not the same asc AAS cycling steroid use, and longer term use goes well beyond the time frame of jacking up levels to supraphysiological levels. cycling is more like getting high, TRT is seeking normality for the long haul.

HCG mimics LH, stimulates testicles and theoretically "backfills" upstream steroid pathway, i.e. pregnenelone, DHEA, test and everything else downstream by virtue of raising precursors to T.

And read posts #4 and #9 here: https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?10778-HCG-effect-on-thyroid-and-DHEA-levels Dr Saya states the effect of HCG on thyroid is moot. While possible, apparently only N=1 anecdote.
 

Systemlord

Member
These percentages for Free T and SHBG doesn't tell us anything, bottom of the range, top of the ranges. Nobody does TRT like this, it leads us to guess where your levels are, please post full labs including ranges.
 
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BillyJ03z

Active Member
These percentages for Free T and SHBG doesn't tell us anything, bottom of the range, top of the ranges. Nobody does TRT like this, it leads us to guess where your levels are, please post full labs including ranges.

Sorry for not listing actual lab values... but I highly doubted anyone would be that invested and take the time to read over 80 different lab values from the past 16 years...

Going back 15-16 years worth of my labs, a lot of my labs are from different labs (labcorp, quest, etc.) which all have different lab reference ranges.. I tried to give a combined generalized avg % of where all my lab values fell over the years (prior to/after starting TRT) with regards to all the different labs and reference lab ranges .


On that note, I just returned from my doctor and she agreed to switch me to Test Prop @ 40 eod and HCG @ 250-400iu 3x a wk...
 
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DragonBits

Well-Known Member
On that note, I just returned from my doctor and she agreed to switch me to Test Prop @ 40 eod and HCG @ 250-400iu 3x a wk...

I hope you come back to report on how you feel on this new / old protocol.

One thing to consider, you felt great at age 30 when using this protocol, but not so good using testosterone cypionate. Maybe it's not the protocol but being 14 years older. Or maybe your thyroid just doesn't respond as well as when you were 30.


The only way to find out is to try the old protocol and see how you feel then.
 

BillyJ03z

Active Member
I hope you come back to report on how you feel on this new / old protocol.

One thing to consider, you felt great at age 30 when using this protocol, but not so good using testosterone cypionate. Maybe it's not the protocol but being 14 years older. Or maybe your thyroid just doesn't respond as well as when you were 30.

The only way to find out is to try the old protocol and see how you feel then.

You may be right! It may be Thyroid and it may be just age related... I only know that I started feeling like crap about a year into the start of my TRT.

About 3 months ago (due to my low SHBG and advice on Excel) I decided to switch from Test Cyp 200mg total - 2xwk @ 100mg to test Cyp 120mg total-3xwk @ 40mg and I actually felt a little better with noticeable more energy.. my lipid panels improved (granted I started taking 1 tbs coconut oil every night), I was happy with my test/e2 levels, but my Thyroid panels remained the same Low ft4/high Ft3 (pooling symptoms)... So Im hoping going to a shorter ester with EOD dosing regimen will keep Test levels more stable minimizing any test/e 2 spikes/peaks and hopefully the addition of HCG is the missing key to what appears to be sluggish adrenals (crap dhea levels) giving thyroid some help.
 

Joe Sixpack

Active Member
You asked about HCG and thyroid levels. I can't speak to that. But I can tell you that TRT without HCG was a disaster for me. Unbearable and I had to quit. My next doctor has added HCG to my protocol and I am enjoying TRT a lot more this time around. Some guys get no benefit from HCG, while for others, like me, it makes all the difference.
 

BillyJ03z

Active Member
You asked about HCG and thyroid levels. I can't speak to that. But I can tell you that TRT without HCG was a disaster for me. Unbearable and I had to quit. My next doctor has added HCG to my protocol and I am enjoying TRT a lot more this time around. Some guys get no benefit from HCG, while for others, like me, it makes all the difference.

I'm hoping HCG is the missing key in my TRT, because it has honestly sucked for the past 8 years progressively getting worse....
 

BillyJ03z

Active Member
Just curious, what is your HCG dosage per week. I'm currently trying to dial in my HCG dose, so just seeing what others find works for them

My doc has given me freedom to dose HCG anyway I feel as long as the total doesn't go over 1200iu per/wk... I am starting out low at 250iu x 3 pr/wk (750iu total)... I want to start slowly to see how my body/labs respond especially concerning E2...
 

Vince

Super Moderator
I started trt about three and a half years ago, I also started using HCG as part of my protocol. I use 500 IU of HCG twice a week, I believe it has helped keep my libido strong and my testicles full. I'm presently trying to get my thyroid levels good, one thing I've learned you should have your reverse T3 check. It has a lot to do with your free T3.

Is high Reverse T3 a problem here? Labs included

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?14451-Is-high-Reverse-T3-a-problem-here-Labs-included
 

HoustonTX

Member
Hcg can make a big difference. It did for me. It could be that you're gettung older. You could always get off trt and see how you feel. I thought about doing it recently, since trying to get dialed back in has been a Royal PIA. But, i did it 3-4 years ago and just felt ok and wanted to get back on. Some guys who have normal testosterone ranges for their age feel better cycling to getvthat high as mentioned before. And, cycling doesn't have some of the side effects that Trt does
 
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