1. #1

    Blood work results after dropping dosage to 110mg from 180mg a week

    I give up trying to understand lab results when changing my dosage. After reducing my dosage from 180mg to 110mg a week (split E3.5) here are my new levels:

    TT 833 (274-916)
    FT 29.9 (8.7-25.1)

    Results while on 180mg a week:

    TT 947 (274-916)
    FT 33.1 (8.7-25.1)

    To make things worse when i started TRT using 140mg a week my results were:

    TT 1331 (274-916)
    FT 35.6 (8.7-25.1)

    Just one thing worth mentioning that should NOT explain the big inconsistent difference (my bloodwork this time was done 12 hours before trough - i have been busy during the weekends with work and wasn’t able to get blood work done Saturday. Also my first blood work was done 12 hours before trough. The bloodwork for the 180mg a week dosage was done at trough). I inject at 9am/pm within a 15min range so very consistent.

    HCG dosage was the same.

    It feels like my body builds up some kind of resistance to testosterone that goes away once dosage is lowered. I know it makes no scientific sense but looking at all my bloodworks through these years this is what it feels and looks like.

    Do add to the craziness despite the elevate FT my HCT has been lowering.

    Btw i feel great and i have reduced my dosage to 100mg a week.

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  3. #2
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    You may just need to relax.


    Quote Originally Posted by HealthMan View Post
    I give up trying to understand lab results when changing my dosage. After reducing my dosage from 180mg to 110mg a week (split E3.5) here are my new levels:

    TT 833 (274-916)
    FT 29.9 (8.7-25.1)

    Results while on 180mg a week:

    TT 947 (274-916)
    FT 33.1 (8.7-25.1)

    To make things worse when i started TRT using 140mg a week my results were:

    TT 1331 (274-916)
    FT 35.6 (8.7-25.1)

    Just one thing worth mentioning that should NOT explain the big inconsistent difference (my bloodwork this time was done 12 hours before trough - i have been busy during the weekends with work and wasn’t able to get blood work done Saturday. Also my first blood work was done 12 hours before trough. The bloodwork for the 180mg a week dosage was done at trough). I inject at 9am/pm within a 15min range so very consistent.

    HCG dosage was the same.

    It feels like my body builds up some kind of resistance to testosterone that goes away once dosage is lowered. I know it makes no scientific sense but looking at all my bloodworks through these years this is what it feels and looks like.

    Do add to the craziness despite the elevate FT my HCT has been lowering.

    Btw i feel great and i have reduced my dosage to 100mg a week.

  4. #3
    Higher doses of Test can lower your SHBG and in turn raise FT

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardoc View Post
    Higher doses of Test can lower your SHBG and in turn raise FT
    I didn’t post SHBG but it has been unchanged during all this time 22-25 range. Also difficult to explain TT.

  6. #5
    Moderator Vince's Avatar
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    I always try to do my labs on Monday morning, I fast for 12 hours and of course I do my lab before I inject. Here's one thing I do that I don't know is necessary, everyday that I inject before I inject I shake my vial of testosterone. Making sure nothing has settled and keeping the oil and testosterone well-mixed. I was told once that I should do that so I've continued the practice.
    I am not a medical practitioner. Any suggestions I provide are not medical recommendations and are just my opinions. Please consult with your physician on any matters concerning your health.

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by HealthMan View Post

    Btw i feel great and i have reduced my dosage to 100mg a week.
    I think this is all that really matters.
    With your FT still a little over range are you having any issues with HCT or blood pressure?

    I think your numbers above show just how hard it is to get good number for comparison month to month.
    It looks like even if our protocol is steady our T lvls are all over the place based on our activities day to day.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by FeelingLost View Post
    I think this is all that really matters.
    With your FT still a little over range are you having any issues with HCT or blood pressure?

    I think your numbers above show just how hard it is to get good number for comparison month to month.
    It looks like even if our protocol is steady our T lvls are all over the place based on our activities day to day.
    I know. But I am that kind of person that wants to understand things. I am by no means overwhelmed just trying to understand :-)
    Blood pressure has been 105-115/65-75 range (my BP was a little elevated before TRT). HCT is getting lower.
    So i will lower my dosage to 100mg and stay there for a while see how things go.
    I have read somewhere in this forum that free testosterone direct can be all over the place during the day. Not sure if there is any truth to that but. Bottom line is i am feeling great, HCT is getting under control and my iron numbers are great again (not sure if you remember my out of whack iron levels a few months ago when I was at a higher dosage)

  9. #8
    You can just surmise that the TT/FT that are rather close despite the dramatic dose change is perhaps accounted for in your SHBG...you were just pissing out all that T previously.

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by HealthMan View Post
    I know. But I am that kind of person that wants to understand things. I am by no means overwhelmed just trying to understand :-)
    Blood pressure has been 105-115/65-75 range (my BP was a little elevated before TRT). HCT is getting lower.
    So i will lower my dosage to 100mg and stay there for a while see how things go.
    I have read somewhere in this forum that free testosterone direct can be all over the place during the day. Not sure if there is any truth to that but. Bottom line is i am feeling great, HCT is getting under control and my iron numbers are great again (not sure if you remember my out of whack iron levels a few months ago when I was at a higher dosage)
    I know exactly how you feel I am a retired aerospace engineer and plagued with that desire to know how something works.

    We are on similar paths. I have permission from Defy to see how low I can go before feeling a loss or that something is missing.
    I hit that mark at .16(32mg) M/W/F .20HCG no AI held their for 5 weeks no bloods just based on how I felt.
    I am now doing .18 M/W/F .30 HCG have needed one .125 AI a week to keep the tears away.
    I plan to hold this protocol until my 6 month bloods in July.

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by FeelingLost View Post
    I think this is all that really matters.
    With your FT still a little over range are you having any issues with HCT or blood pressure?

    I think your numbers above show just how hard it is to get good number for comparison month to month.
    It looks like even if our protocol is steady our T lvls are all over the place based on our activities day to day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Carter View Post
    You can just surmise that the TT/FT that are rather close despite the dramatic dose change is perhaps accounted for in your SHBG...you were just pissing out all that T previously.
    Possibly. But what a difference in side effects. From high HCT, crazy high serum iron, high estradiol to none of these. Just to show that there is much more to the TRT game than the trough picture

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by FeelingLost View Post
    I think this is all that really matters.
    With your FT still a little over range are you having any issues with HCT or blood pressure?

    I think your numbers above show just how hard it is to get good number for comparison month to month.
    It looks like even if our protocol is steady our T lvls are all over the place based on our activities day to day.
    Quote Originally Posted by FeelingLost View Post
    I know exactly how you feel I am a retired aerospace engineer and plagued with that desire to know how something works.

    We are on similar paths. I have permission from Defy to see how low I can go before feeling a loss or that something is missing.
    I hit that mark at .16(32mg) M/W/F .20HCG no AI held their for 5 weeks no bloods just based on how I felt.
    I am now doing .18 M/W/F .30 HCG have needed one .125 AI a week to keep the tears away.
    I plan to hold this protocol until my 6 month bloods in July.
    Indeed :-) i hope i dont have to resume very low dosage anastrozole. With the lower testosterone dosage and taking DIM + Calcium D Glucarate + Zinc was keeping my estradiol where it should be. But after a few attempts with Zinc i have noticed it really increased my BP. So i stopped zinc and started to have some nipple issues again. So hopefully the additional dosage reduction will take care of that. If not i will probably add 0.125mg once a week. Still waiting for the estradiol sensitive numbers. But given my low SHBG i need to keep my estradiol lower than the average dude

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by FeelingLost View Post
    I think this is all that really matters.
    With your FT still a little over range are you having any issues with HCT or blood pressure?

    I think your numbers above show just how hard it is to get good number for comparison month to month.
    It looks like even if our protocol is steady our T lvls are all over the place based on our activities day to day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    I always try to do my labs on Monday morning, I fast for 12 hours and of course I do my lab before I inject. Here's one thing I do that I don't know is necessary, everyday that I inject before I inject I shake my vial of testosterone. Making sure nothing has settled and keeping the oil and testosterone well-mixed. I was told once that I should do that so I've continued the practice.
    Interesting. I never noticed anything settled inside the vial. I might give it a try

  14. #13
    HealthMan and FeelingLost,

    I had a similar surprise with my labs last week. My hematocrit was high previously - it got as high as 52.1 when my peak TT was 734 (264-916) and my trough TT was 497.

    Made a protocol change - dropped HCG completely and increased T dose a bit (no AI). I told my wife before labs "I hope HCT hasn't gone up because I'm finally feeling good since starting TRT on this new protocol and don't want to have to change anything."

    My labs on new protocol showed peak TT of 1482 (264-916) and trough TT of 879. Highest I've ever been. So I was a bit scared looking through the lab report to my next area of focus - hematocrit. And to my surprise it went DOWN a fair amount to 48.4! I was very pleasantly surprised.

    This triggered a lot of questions in my mind since I had always assumed higher TT = higher HCT. So I spent a bit of time crunching numbers from labs from past protocols. I noticed a correlation between TT:E2 ratio and HCT. The higher TT:E2 ratios were associated with lower HCT, lower ratios with higher HCT. Now, my sample size is only 4 (I only have 4 sets of labs from 4 different protocols) so this is far from scientific and makes my results somewhat meaningless. But since apparently you, FL, and I like to geek out about this stuff, maybe you guys could look through previous labs and see what your results tell you and report back?

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by S1W View Post
    HealthMan and FeelingLost,

    I had a similar surprise with my labs last week. My hematocrit was high previously - it got as high as 52.1 when my peak TT was 734 (264-916) and my trough TT was 497.

    Made a protocol change - dropped HCG completely and increased T dose a bit (no AI). I told my wife before labs "I hope HCT hasn't gone up because I'm finally feeling good since starting TRT on this new protocol and don't want to have to change anything."

    My labs on new protocol showed peak TT of 1482 (264-916) and trough TT of 879. Highest I've ever been. So I was a bit scared looking through the lab report to my next area of focus - hematocrit. And to my surprise it went DOWN a fair amount to 48.4! I was very pleasantly surprised.

    This triggered a lot of questions in my mind since I had always assumed higher TT = higher HCT. So I spent a bit of time crunching numbers from labs from past protocols. I noticed a correlation between TT:E2 ratio and HCT. The higher TT:E2 ratios were associated with lower HCT, lower ratios with higher HCT. Now, my sample size is only 4 (I only have 4 sets of labs from 4 different protocols) so this is far from scientific and makes my results somewhat meaningless. But since apparently you, FL, and I like to geek out about this stuff, maybe you guys could look through previous labs and see what your results tell you and report back?
    For me TT:E2 ratio doesn’t really correlate with my HCT. What correlates 100% is my dosage and frequency. The higher the dosage and/or injection frequency the higher my HCT.
    However higher dosages don’t really mean higher testosterone levels on trough for whatever reason.
    My lowest TT and FT levels were when i was injecting daily 22mg/day and my HCT jumped something like 5 points in less than 3 months.

    My lowest hematocrit was with 110mg a week injecting E3.5D. I will keep following my HCT hopefully the dosage reduction took care of this forever

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by S1W View Post
    HealthMan and FeelingLost,

    I had a similar surprise with my labs last week. My hematocrit was high previously - it got as high as 52.1 when my peak TT was 734 (264-916) and my trough TT was 497.

    Made a protocol change - dropped HCG completely and increased T dose a bit (no AI). I told my wife before labs "I hope HCT hasn't gone up because I'm finally feeling good since starting TRT on this new protocol and don't want to have to change anything."

    My labs on new protocol showed peak TT of 1482 (264-916) and trough TT of 879. Highest I've ever been. So I was a bit scared looking through the lab report to my next area of focus - hematocrit. And to my surprise it went DOWN a fair amount to 48.4! I was very pleasantly surprised.

    This triggered a lot of questions in my mind since I had always assumed higher TT = higher HCT. So I spent a bit of time crunching numbers from labs from past protocols. I noticed a correlation between TT:E2 ratio and HCT. The higher TT:E2 ratios were associated with lower HCT, lower ratios with higher HCT. Now, my sample size is only 4 (I only have 4 sets of labs from 4 different protocols) so this is far from scientific and makes my results somewhat meaningless. But since apparently you, FL, and I like to geek out about this stuff, maybe you guys could look through previous labs and see what your results tell you and report back?
    I like this idea. I am not sure how good my numbers will be since I was donating blood every 56 days in anticipation of a high HCT . Only once did I not donate and my HCT cam back 51.7 I donated 1 pint of whole blood and retested 2 weeks later. My HCt was 46 ...yeah I know 46 no way. F-ing Labcorp screwed one of the two test up.

    Anyway let me know if you think my data would be useful. I'd be happy to post up what I got.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by HealthMan View Post
    For me TT:E2 ratio doesn’t really correlate with my HCT. What correlates 100% is my dosage and frequency. The higher the dosage and/or injection frequency the higher my HCT.
    However higher dosages don’t really mean higher testosterone levels on trough for whatever reason.
    My lowest TT and FT levels were when i was injecting daily 22mg/day and my HCT jumped something like 5 points in less than 3 months.

    My lowest hematocrit was with 110mg a week injecting E3.5D. I will keep following my HCT hopefully the dosage reduction took care of this forever
    Good to know the TT:E2 ratio thing is just a fluke. Kinda what I expected.

    That's the thing though - this dosage is higher and my TT/FT are higher than they have ever been, and this is the lowest HCT has been since starting TRT. I've never tried any injection frequency other than E3.5D - thanks for sharing your experience with that.

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by S1W View Post
    Good to know the TT:E2 ratio thing is just a fluke. Kinda what I expected.

    That's the thing though - this dosage is higher and my TT/FT are higher than they have ever been, and this is the lowest HCT has been since starting TRT. I've never tried any injection frequency other than E3.5D - thanks for sharing your experience with that.
    In your case it was probably you dropping the HCG. How much and how often you injected HCG?

  19. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by S1W View Post
    Good to know the TT:E2 ratio thing is just a fluke. Kinda what I expected.

    That's the thing though - this dosage is higher and my TT/FT are higher than they have ever been, and this is the lowest HCT has been since starting TRT. I've never tried any injection frequency other than E3.5D - thanks for sharing your experience with that.
    Lets hope your lab did not screw up your blood test and give you a bad reading. Do you monitor your blood pressure often. That is how I track my HCT. When my HCT hits 50 my Blood pressure is 10 points higher top and bottom.

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by FeelingLost View Post
    Lets hope your lab did not screw up your blood test and give you a bad reading. Do you monitor your blood pressure often. That is how I track my HCT. When my HCT hits 50 my Blood pressure is 10 points higher top and bottom.
    That thought has crossed my mind.

    - Hemoglobin only went down a little bit, from 17.3 to 17.
    - RBC went down from 5.55 to 5.45.
    - And HCT went down from 51.2 to 48.4.*

    *The higher HCT number mentioned above was from a previous protocol, not the one immediately preceding current protocol.

  21. #20
    I'm am wondering about lab accuracy. After two or three readings in high 800's on a little over and a little under 100mg/week, my last test done the same time relative to trough and E3d injections came in at over 1000. All Labcorp. WTF?

  22. #21
    Accuracy for one, yes, I remember a time recently I pulled a 1322 Total...no way that was right and as I/we like to say when one is way out there, retest. But too, I think we you dig in to some ones routine, I think it's not hard or too many questions have to be put forth before you find out that people aren't are strict in their regimen as they purport to be. the introduction of variables is a huge factor.

  23. #22
    Member madman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HealthMan View Post
    I know. But I am that kind of person that wants to understand things. I am by no means overwhelmed just trying to understand :-)
    Blood pressure has been 105-115/65-75 range (my BP was a little elevated before TRT). HCT is getting lower.
    So i will lower my dosage to 100mg and stay there for a while see how things go.
    I have read somewhere in this forum that free testosterone direct can be all over the place during the day. Not sure if there is any truth to that but. Bottom line is i am feeling great, HCT is getting under control and my iron numbers are great again (not sure if you remember my out of whack iron levels a few months ago when I was at a higher dosage)

    https://endocrinenews.endocrine.org/...-measurements/

  24. #23

  25. #24
    Member madman's Avatar
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    Regarding free testosterone I would not rely on direct analog assay especially in cases where one has low or high SHBG.

  26. #25
    Thanks madman. It looks like low SHBG mighh explain both TT and FT “inconsistencies”.

  27. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by HealthMan View Post
    Thanks madman. It looks like low SHBG mighh explain both TT and FT “inconsistencies”.


    Read this when you have time as it is an eye opener regarding shbg, free testosterone and assay testing methods.

    Linear binding models of testosterone to shbg and hsa (human serum albumin) are being challenged.

    https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/38/4/302/3897170

  28. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk View Post
    I'm am wondering about lab accuracy. After two or three readings in high 800's on a little over and a little under 100mg/week, my last test done the same time relative to trough and E3d injections came in at over 1000. All Labcorp. WTF?
    I asked dr Saya about this. His reply:

    -Could be from lab variation/error
    -Endogenous production of T can vary even while on TRT especially using HCG, so my boys may have just been producing a bit more than usual

    -or combination thereof

  29. #28
    in my once per week HCG use that I've gotten in to I try to not have HCG even just 200iu within 48hrs of my blood draw.

  30. #29
    Got my estradiol sensitive results. 34.9 (8-35) - no anastrozole. Thats a bit too high for me (FT a bit too high as well). I have reduced my dosage to 100mg a week. That should bring my estradiol lower. However to prevent any reoccurring gyno my estradiol usually needs to be no more than mid 20s. Zinc was working to keep gyno issues at bay but i had to stop it was elevating my BP. So maybe i will need 0.125mg anastrozole once a week lets see.


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