Moving from M-W-F Test Cyp to daily injections. How to calculate dose?

Corwin1968 · Apr 20, 2018

I'm a low SHBG, high E2 guy and the times when I've felt like my TRT is actually working as it should are seemingly random and far between. I'm going to switch from 54mg Test Cyp M-W-F to daily injections for several weeks, as an experiment. I know a lesser amount of T Cyp is called for with more frequent injections but how much less? My current weekly dosage divided by seven days yields 23mg/day but I don't know how much lower to go for this daily protocol.

I'm also going to drop the HCG during this time and I'm undecided on what do with the Anastrazole, which is .25mg M-W-F. I may just drop the Anastrazole for a couple of weeks and then get labs to see where my numbers are.

Vince · Apr 20, 2018

Here's a copy of my labs when I was injecting 20 mg of testosterone cypionate daily.
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?12800-I-took-a-peek-at-my-Labs
My energy level was outstanding, but because my levels were so high I decided to drop my dose to 16 mg daily.
I've never needed or use an AI.

Vince Carter · Apr 20, 2018

Vince is spot on just take the cumulative weekly and divide by 7, 20mg/D is a good starting point. I would suggest changing only this one thing which might help you narrow down if this works, or not. The more you change the more variable and you wont know if it was the Cyp or something else that improved, or didn't help.

Corwin1968 · Apr 20, 2018

Wait, you guys are two different people?

Now I know why I've been confused when "Vince Carter" posts something that is the opposite of what I was sure "Vince" had posted! It just took seeing you side by side in the same thread to realize it's too different Vince's. LOL

Changing just one thing makes sense, so if I continue the HCG, would you recommend staying on 300 Iu M-W-F or dividing that into daily doses?

I haven't been consistent on the Anastrazole so I'll just stick with the official prescription, which is .25mg twice weekly and evaluate from there.

HoustonTX · Apr 20, 2018

Being inconsistent, especially with anastrzole, is a problem in itself. I agree with Vince and Vince and reasons why to only change one thing at a time. But, if you're not consistent with your anastrozole, you're definitely going to have problems. I print out a calendar and right the dosage down and check it off for testosterone and anastrozole just to make sure I don't forget anything and to be consistent. If there is one thing you have to be consistent with, especially when determining how well your Trt is working is hormones

Vince · Apr 20, 2018

When I went to daily injections, I kept my same HCG protocol. 500 IU of HCG twice a week and I'm still injecting the same amount and frequency of HCG.

Even Nelson Vergel gets confused about the 2 Vince's.

Corwin1968 · Apr 28, 2018

Okay, I am 8-10 days into injecting 20mg of Test Cyp daily with .25 mg Anastrazole on Monday & Thursday. I've been out of HCG the entire time but got my refill yesterday and restarted my 300 IU injection, three times weekly.

I've noticed a definite downward trend in my symptoms and today I just feel totally wiped out. I slept 9.5 hours last night, got up for about 2.5 hours and then went back to sleep for four more hours. That was six hours ago and I have felt totally exhausted the entire time.

My understanding is that when T levels are moving down, I will feel worse during the transition, even if the eventual lower dose is optimal and I'll feel good in the long run.

Is 8-10 days too soon to consider that my Test Cyp dose might just be too low? I've felt bad from both high and low T but this feels different, more like I felt when I went weeks without TRT due to insurance issues.

HealthMan · Apr 28, 2018

Corwin1968 said:
Okay, I am 8-10 days into injecting 20mg of Test Cyp daily with .25 mg Anastrazole on Monday & Thursday. I've been out of HCG the entire time but got my refill yesterday and restarted my 300 IU injection, three times weekly.

I've noticed a definite downward trend in my symptoms and today I just feel totally wiped out. I slept 9.5 hours last night, got up for about 2.5 hours and then went back to sleep for four more hours. That was six hours ago and I have felt totally exhausted the entire time.

My understanding is that when T levels are moving down, I will feel worse during the transition, even if the eventual lower dose is optimal and I'll feel good in the long run.

Is 8-10 days too soon to consider that my Test Cyp dose might just be too low? I've felt bad from both high and low T but this feels different, more like I felt when I went weeks without TRT due to insurance issues.

For most men when changing dosage or injection frequency your body goes through a lot of hormonal changes and it is normal to fell off (some days you can feel great other days you might feel like you stopped TRT). Give at least 5-6 weeks before you make any decision about changing your protocol again.

Vince · Apr 29, 2018

Corwin1968 said:
Okay, I am 8-10 days into injecting 20mg of Test Cyp daily with .25 mg Anastrazole on Monday & Thursday. I've been out of HCG the entire time but got my refill yesterday and restarted my 300 IU injection, three times weekly.

I've noticed a definite downward trend in my symptoms and today I just feel totally wiped out. I slept 9.5 hours last night, got up for about 2.5 hours and then went back to sleep for four more hours. That was six hours ago and I have felt totally exhausted the entire time.

My understanding is that when T levels are moving down, I will feel worse during the transition, even if the eventual lower dose is optimal and I'll feel good in the long run.

Is 8-10 days too soon to consider that my Test Cyp dose might just be too low? I've felt bad from both high and low T but this feels different, more like I felt when I went weeks without TRT due to insurance issues.

It sounds like when you added in HCG, you started feeling bad? What if you stopped the HCG for now or until you get labs.

Corwin1968 · Apr 29, 2018

Vince said:
It sounds like when you added in HCG, you started feeling bad? What if you stopped the HCG for now or until you get labs.

I was feeling the crash before the HCG and I've only taken one dose. The day after the HCG was the worst but it's hard to tell if it's the HCG or simply the timing of the lowered Test Cyp levels.

I'll stay the course on the 20mg daily. Are there guys who felt worse on HCG than they did without it? I would love to feel better without it because it's relatively expensive and I'm not concerned with fertility.

Vince · Apr 29, 2018

Corwin1968 said:
I was feeling the crash before the HCG and I've only taken one dose. The day after the HCG was the worst but it's hard to tell if it's the HCG or simply the timing of the lowered Test Cyp levels.

I'll stay the course on the 20mg daily. Are there guys who felt worse on HCG than they did without it? I would love to feel better without it because it's relatively expensive and I'm not concerned with fertility.

It's well known that HCG can increase estradiol levels in some, no means all men, it's not surprising that there are reports of issues typically associated with elevated e2.

Corwin1968 · Apr 30, 2018

Vince said:
It's well known that HCG can increase estradiol levels in some, no means all men, it's not surprising that there are reports of issues typically associated with elevated e2.

That's good to know. I'll have to give dropping the HCG serious consideration.

Vince Carter · Apr 30, 2018

You can cut that 300 3 times per week way way down, too, not cut it out entirely. 250 twice per week could alleviate your symptoms, if not cutting it back even more. For instance I only use 200iu once per week because I think it's either counterproductive to my protocol and/or I get no subjective feeling from it's use. Obviously my nuts arent shrunken up but that's about all I get that is good from HCG so I use a minimal amount.

Corwin1968 · May 23, 2018

UPDATE:

I decided to do a fourth week blood draw for T & E to see where I am. The results were:

Total T: 916 Reference Range 264 - 916

Free T: 22.9 Reference Range 7.2 - 24.0

E2: 32.4 Reference Range 8.0 - 35.0

My protocol was 20mg of Test cyp daily for the first two weeks and then I upped it to 22mg of Test Cyp because I was feeling really bad. .25mg Anastrazole on Monday and Thursday. I wasn't consistent with HCG and am considering dropping it.

My numbers are all at the upper end of the reference range but I still don't feel that great. I'm definately improved over my original condition but I'm still tired, foggy, little libido, etc... For the last couple of weeks, I've had bad edema in my legs, with it being much worse the past week. I don't know if it's related to my numbers, though.

At this point should I stay the course and give my body time to adjust to this protocol or should I consider dropping to a slightly lower Test Cyp dosage? Now that warm weather is here, I'll be more active and likely lose some weight so that should help.

FeelingLost · May 23, 2018

Corwin1968 said:
UPDATE:

I decided to do a fourth week blood draw for T & E to see where I am. The results were:

Total T: 916 Reference Range 264 - 916

Free T: 22.9 Reference Range 7.2 - 24.0

E2: 32.4 Reference Range 8.0 - 35.0

My protocol was 20mg of Test cyp daily for the first two weeks and then I upped it to 22mg of Test Cyp because I was feeling really bad. .25mg Anastrazole on Monday and Thursday. I wasn't consistent with HCG and am considering dropping it.

My numbers are all at the upper end of the reference range but I still don't feel that great. I'm definately improved over my original condition but I'm still tired, foggy, little libido, etc... For the last couple of weeks, I've had bad edema in my legs, with it being much worse the past week. I don't know if it's related to my numbers, though.

At this point should I stay the course and give my body time to adjust to this protocol or should I consider dropping to a slightly lower Test Cyp dosage? Now that warm weather is here, I'll be more active and likely lose some weight so that should help.

Hi Corwin, My comments are on the things I bolded and underlined in your post.
So you took 20mg for 2 week and then 22 mg for 2 additional week then drew blood. This blood test is a nice peak at your lvls but they are no where near where you are going to end up. It takes 40 days for T cyp to reach steady state (double what you are injecting weekly) so all your number you listed will be going up and out of range.

Not knowing your SHGB or anything else about your situation I can offer no protocols. You really should stick with one and wait 40 days then draw blood.

My last comment is on you lvl of activity/exersize. From your last sentence it sounds like you don't exersize regularly and what about your diet? You know tuning up your T is only a small part of this game of feeling better.

I hope this does not come across as me b-itching at you. It is ment as a friend to friend peptalk.

1Draw · May 23, 2018

Corwin1968 said:
UPDATE:

I decided to do a fourth week blood draw for T & E to see where I am. The results were:

Total T: 916 Reference Range 264 - 916

Free T: 22.9 Reference Range 7.2 - 24.0

E2: 32.4 Reference Range 8.0 - 35.0

My protocol was 20mg of Test cyp daily for the first two weeks and then I upped it to 22mg of Test Cyp because I was feeling really bad. .25mg Anastrazole on Monday and Thursday. I wasn't consistent with HCG and am considering dropping it.

My numbers are all at the upper end of the reference range but I still don't feel that great. I'm definately improved over my original condition but I'm still tired, foggy, little libido, etc... For the last couple of weeks, I've had bad edema in my legs, with it being much worse the past week. I don't know if it's related to my numbers, though.

At this point should I stay the course and give my body time to adjust to this protocol or should I consider dropping to a slightly lower Test Cyp dosage? Now that warm weather is here, I'll be more active and likely lose some weight so that should help.

Your symptoms may not be testosterone related. Your numbers look perfect so, no reason for testosterone to cause your symptoms IMHO. If it were me, I would get a full thyroid panel done with T4, T3, FT3 and RT3 at a minimum. Here is good comparison of symptoms of low thyroid and low testosterone:

https://www.restartmed.com/thyroid-symptoms-men/

You can then post the results in the Thyroid section. We have some real experts here (I'm not one of them

) who can guide you. If not, hopefully your doctor can prescribe whatever is needed to get you feeling better and healthy.

Systemlord · May 23, 2018

If you're truly low SHBG, it's too much testosterone. If SHBG is below 20 estrogen may be too high do to most of it being free.

Corwin1968 · May 23, 2018

Feelinglost, I know I was jumping the gun a bit but I wanted a progress number to make sure I wasn't way, way off track. No worries about the way you came off, I know that what you recommend is good advice.

1Draw, Thyroid issues is something I know nothing about. I have two TSH numbers from the past year or so and both are right in the middle of the reference ranges. My yearly with Defy is coming up in the near future and I will discuss the thyroid possibility with them. I know at least one doctor in the past has had minor concerns but my PCP wasn't concerned.

Systemlord, I've had my SHBG tested twice and both times it was 18. Looking back at my records, I had very similar numbers on the same dosage of Test Cyp on a M-W-F protocol with .25 Anastrazole, also M-W-F. So basically, the daily protocol has reduced my need for Anastrazole by a third. I'm not sure that's worth it.

Moving from M-W-F Test Cyp to daily injections. How to calculate dose?

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