Here's a scary thought: Long term LH suppression on TRT- What are the effects?

Reading among bodybuilder sites, HCG is also a suppressant. Testosterone suppressed LH, and HCG suppresses (reduces the number of) LH receptor sites and increases the number of estradiol sites. This is why both work for a time, then don’t. Also why women naturally have HCG in higher quantities. It’s meant to benefit women.
The amount most beneficial to men would require dosing small amounts multiple times a day. As this is impractical, men instead inject large amounts a couple times a week, which is large enough to overload the LH receptor sites, which your body responds to by desensitizing and reducing the number of LH receptor sites over time.
When men use large amounts of HCG for fertility purposes, it is hammering LH sites sites, causing rapid loss of LH sites, but will hopefully increase testosterone levels long enough to get the woman pregnant.
To recover your LH receptors, you need to get off HCG and they will gradually recover over time. This points to cycling HCG.

I´m cycling HCG and happy about that. I know that most people here wouldn´t agree to that is the best way.

[email protected] said:

Reading among bodybuilder sites, HCG is also a suppressant. Testosterone suppressed LH, and HCG suppresses (reduces the number of) LH receptor sites and increases the number of estradiol sites. This is why both work for a time, then don't. Also why women naturally have HCG in higher quantities. It's meant to benefit women.
The amount most beneficial to men would require dosing small amounts multiple times a day. As this is impractical, men instead inject large amounts a couple times a week, which is large enough to overload the LH receptor sites, which your body responds to by desensitizing and reducing the number of LH receptor sites over time.
When men use large amounts of HCG for fertility purposes, it is hammering LH sites sites, causing rapid loss of LH sites, but will hopefully increase testosterone levels long enough to get the woman pregnant.
To recover your LH receptors, you need to get off HCG and they will gradually recover over time. This points to cycling HCG.

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Bodybuilders use exceptionally large quantities of HCG because their goal is to hard-restart the gonadotropin system after prolonged periods of complete shutdown. They also use exceptionally large doses of SERMs following HCG use as well. HCG is an analog to LH, which means that it is exactly the same. As I explained earlier, conventional doses of HCG barely replicate the effects of below range LH, and there is absolutely no reason to think that HCG has a stronger binding affinity for LH receptors than regular LH. The evidence of that is guys on HCG monotherapy who fail to produce large quantities of total testosterone (even at the beginning of therapy) despite high doses of HCG. The amount of HCG necessary to replicate the effects of LH in the 4-6miu/mL range would be extraordinary, so the "hammering LH sites" hypothesis doesn't really hold any water.

Also, when bodybuilders refer to HCG as suppressive, they are referring to its down-regulating effect on LH production, not receptor density. That is why they will only use HCG for a relatively short amount of time (usually two weeks) to resensitize the Leydig cells, and then come off to allow the SERMs to kick-start LH production. Even an incredibly low dose of clomid, such as 12.5mg twice a week will hammer LH receptor sites a dozen times harder than a conventional HCG protocol. The difference is that clomid facilitates the production of LH, while HCG attenuates it. As far as receptor activation goes, the effects of HCG are relatively paltry.

TestAdvocate said:

Totally agree with this. I'm one of those guys, I'm one of your patients. I love this forum. This Forum served me so well in getting started, I occasionally check in now to see what's going on. TRT has been great for me. Staying on top of everything to keep "dialed in" takes effort, and then still things can go haywire. Then we check in again to get more specific info. I think when we choose this therapy, we are going in knowing that a lot of this is "pioneering" sort of speak. For me, I would rather Pioneer and live the benefits out, instead of waiting for 100% conclusive studies and finding out decades later that the therapy "absolutely" proves to be all it's touted to be. My wife and like to say...."Life is now! Life is in session!"

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yes I agree it's like a risk vs reward thing. Not that it's even a big risk that we know of and even being low t for years is a risk also. But unfortunately I'm one of those guys that can't tolerate trt/hrt. No matter what I do it just gives me uncontrollable anxiety. I've worked with one of the top dr in the field for years and I'm just a tough case.

AbsoluteZ3R0 said:

HCG is an analog to LH, which means that it is exactly the same.

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Not so. Search on Nelson's and Dr Saya's posts on this forum. Here are a couple stating differences:
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?6133&p=95547#post95547

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?6133&p=95542#post95542

An analog is comparable, but not the same, and in the case of HCG vs LH, they are definitely not the same.

Another concern I have with hCG is it's ability to reduce immune function. Very little information in males....

Blackhawk said:

Not so. Search on Nelson's and Dr Saya's posts on this forum. Here are a couple stating differences:
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?6133&p=95547#post95547

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?6133&p=95542#post95542

An analog is comparable, but not the same, and in the case of HCG vs LH, they are definitely not the same.

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I stand corrected, but I still no see any evidence for increased receptor down-regulation compared to regular LH at the same concentration.

AbsoluteZ3R0 said:

Why would HCG stop working? The premise of your hypothesis is that long-term LH deprivation results in deleterious sexual consequences, but there is no logical or scientific basis for the argument that HCG "stops working." If HCG is an analog to LH, then regular concomitant use should have the exact same effect, irrespective of duration. I think a more likely explanation is that androgens are only one component of sexual function, and later on in life many men encounter other issues that interfere with their libido/sexual performance, but instinctively blame trt. I do wonder what role FSH (HMG being the synthetic analog) plays outside of sperm production, and if there are any tangible benefit to using HMG alongside HCG.

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Bingo, testosterone is not panacea, some guys just think they can go on TRT and continue their crappy diet and alcohol consumption w/sedentary lifestyle and everything will be alright. I've not seen any data that HCG stops working, need a source for this claim please.

"This is happening A LOT. It's happening more and more as guys are on TRT for longer periods of time, and we have no understanding of what is happening. Think about this..."

Also need a source for this claim other than anecdotal accounts. We do have an understanding of what diminishing levels of androgens do with men. Lets say TRT stops working over time, well so does your bodies ability to produce androgens at a sufficient level. Have you seen the likes of some of the older celebrities on TRT who are jacked? I mean supplementing androgens is doing something....

mostly psychosomatic issues

at15 said:

mostly psychosomatic issues

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Bingo. And I'll add Im going to give this one a different spin because I agree with some level of certain types that populate the forums and those are the anxiety driven, OCD and other attention seeking behaviors, inability to read and formulate their own thoughts that come here for (constant) (re)validation, let alone the parts that broach in to hypocondria, psychosomatic and other "mystery" ailments.

SO with that said it can SEEM that judging by what guys populate the forum and what they post about, that could lead some one to look at TRT and perceive a failure rate that just isn't there, at least not to the severity that it may look like.

Vince Carter said:

Bingo. And I'll add Im going to give this one a different spin because I agree with some level of certain types that populate the forums and those are the anxiety driven, OCD and other attention seeking behaviors, inability to read and formulate their own thoughts that come here for (constant) (re)validation, let alone the parts that broach in to hypocondria, psychosomatic and other "mystery" ailments.

SO with that said it can SEEM that judging by what guys populate the forum and what they post about, that could lead some one to look at TRT and perceive a failure rate that just isn't there, at least not to the severity that it may look like.

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I can agree with that to a degree. I suffered from anxiety for years. It’s almost non existent now. I do suffer from slight obsessive thoughts. And it does make treating anything more difficult cause I tend to focus on side effects way more then positives. But for me personally this time around I was working trough them but the anxiety was a deal breaker for me with trt. I wish I could have stuck it out. It maybe would have went away with more time. I just can’t deal with having anxiety. I feel like I still have some time left also as I’m only 35. Still areas in life I can improve on. Like gut health and such. I know I will most likely give trt another go in the future.

I am not a weak minded person in almost all aspects of my life except when I feel like crap. That’s when being rational can go out the window and honestly that might be a big factor in treatment success. But that said I know I had some underlying issues before my t went low so I knew trt wasn’t going to be a cure all.

Vince said:

Frank so if I'm understanding you right. No one should ever be on testosterone replacement therapy, because eventually it will fail you.

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These are the same anti propecia syndrome crazies. They think everything causes ED... Man, some days the d*ck just does not work. Watch porn and smoke a joint.