1. #1

    Thoughts / Experiences with Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) for hCG mono induced Gynecomastia?

    Howdy folks.

    Without posting my full history - I've been on hCG mono for the past 3.5 months with really excellent results. No side effects, except that I've developed a minor case of gynecomastia.



    I feel fantastic - T at around 1000, E2 is at 59. We tried Arimidex, but the side effects were unbearable and it didn't help the gynecomastia.

    My physician is suggesting Nolvadex/Tamoxifen, 20mg ED until we get the gynecomastia under control. At that point, we'll either switch to a lower dose of AI, or try some other combos (low dose T + hCG).

    I was wondering if anyone has an experience with Nolvadex / Tamoxifen?
    I was on Clomid for 9 years and hated it...I know Nolva is a related drug. hCG has been life-changing for me, even with the gyno.

    I'm mildly concerned about the effect on IGF-1, way more concerned how it'll affect my mood. I suffer from depression/anxiety, and the hCG has been amazing for that.

    Thanks!

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  3. #2
    Tamoxifen usually is very good at getting rid of recent gyno. 20mg ED until gyno is gone is a good protocol. Usually takes anywhere from 1-3 months. If not gone after that only surgery to fix it. But make sure you get your estradiol under control as well otherwise gyno will most likely returned (if it was caused by high e2 in the first place). Also very important to taper off. Once gyno is gone reduced the dosage to 10mg ED for 1 week. Then 5mg ED for another week.
    I hav used tamoxifen successfully to get rid of gyno a few times already.
    SHBG always increased for me. I never measure IGF-1 but som studies show that it has a lowering effect.
    Last time I used tamoxifen i felt like s.... i will not sugar coat it. But a lot of people donít feel bad at all. For me it made tired, killed my libido and erection quality

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by HealthMan View Post
    Tamoxifen usually is very good at getting rid of recent gyno. 20mg ED until gyno is gone is a good protocol. Usually takes anywhere from 1-3 months. If not gone after that only surgery to fix it. But make sure you get your estradiol under control as well otherwise gyno will most likely returned (if it was caused by high e2 in the first place). Also very important to taper off. Once gyno is gone reduced the dosage to 10mg ED for 1 week. Then 5mg ED for another week.
    I hav used tamoxifen successfully to get rid of gyno a few times already.
    SHBG always increased for me. I never measure IGF-1 but som studies show that it has a lowering effect.
    Last time I used tamoxifen i felt like s.... i will not sugar coat it. But a lot of people don’t feel bad at all. For me it made tired, killed my libido and erection quality
    Thanks, this is tremendously helpful. I've read that anecdotally, not a lot of people feel too hot on Nolva, and I'm kind of dreading this...but plastic surgery isn't a realistic option at this juncture.

    Any other side effects? Mood, energy, weight?

    And do you mind if I ask what your current regimen is?

  5. #4
    Super Moderator Nelson Vergel's Avatar
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    Great drug for gyno since it blocks E2 and decreases IGF-1. It will prevent gains at the gym, though.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Nelson Vergel View Post
    Great drug for gyno since it blocks E2 and decreases IGF-1. It will prevent gains at the gym, though.
    Hi Nelson, thanks very much for the reply. That's disappointing to hear - one of the best things about the hCG is that I've dropped about 3% body fat while adding around 5lbs of muscle. I look great, save for the feminine nipples. Is it likely to destroy my libido as well?

    Does this make sense to you - get the gyno under control, and then move forward with an AI? I feel alive for the first time in years on hCG, I'd really hate to go off it, and I've read that surgery for gyno has its own host of complications (aside from the obvious ones...)

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by HR_Watson View Post
    Thanks, this is tremendously helpful. I've read that anecdotally, not a lot of people feel too hot on Nolva, and I'm kind of dreading this...but plastic surgery isn't a realistic option at this juncture.

    Any other side effects? Mood, energy, weight?

    And do you mind if I ask what your current regimen is?
    I am not using tamoxifen now. My current protocol is 55mg testosterone cypionate, 500 IU HCG, 50IU FSH all E3.5D. No AI.
    No other side effects other than the ones i mentioned. I workout 4-5 times a week and no negative impact at the gym as well.

  8. #7
    HR - I have used Tamoxifen to combat Gyno successfully and didn't feel at all bad, however I do believe my libido dropped.
    As Healthman said - taper it off once the gyno has gone

  9. #8
    Thanks for the replies everyone. I'll report in a bit on how I'm feeling and if this resolves the gyno. Other members might find the information useful.

  10. #9
    Quick update: 3 days on Tamoxifen 20mg daily (10mg in the AM, 10mg in the PM), and the gyno seems to be resolving already. It's sort of reversing in the same order it started...which means the discs under my nipples might be the last things to go.

    Too soon to tell if there are any side effects, and I'm curious to know how the elevated LH & FSH is going to affect me, if at all.

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by HR_Watson View Post
    Quick update: 3 days on Tamoxifen 20mg daily (10mg in the AM, 10mg in the PM), and the gyno seems to be resolving already. It's sort of reversing in the same order it started...which means the discs under my nipples might be the last things to go.

    Too soon to tell if there are any side effects, and I'm curious to know how the elevated LH & FSH is going to affect me, if at all.
    Happy for you! Usually you see a big difference in the first few days but it takes a few weeks to get rid of the gyno (depending on the size longer). Try to avoid touching it too much (in my opinion that slows down the process of getting rid of the gyno) and also no rush to stop taking tamoxifen. Once the gyno is completely gone taper off (1 week 10mg + 1 week 5mg)

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by HealthMan View Post
    Happy for you! Usually you see a big difference in the first few days but it takes a few weeks to get rid of the gyno (depending on the size longer). Try to avoid touching it too much (in my opinion that slows down the process of getting rid of the gyno) and also no rush to stop taking tamoxifen. Once the gyno is completely gone taper off (1 week 10mg + 1 week 5mg)
    I'm relieved, lemme tell you. I'm shocked at the difference in only 3 days. And no, definitely not going to rush with this at all. I'm going to make sure this resolves, and then figure out a way to get my levels back where they were before I change anything up.

    Hard to tell if this is affecting my libido just yet. Doesn't seem to be affecting my workout. Not sure about body fat, except to say that my chest is getting smaller (in a very good way).

    The only potential issue is that I'm not sleeping as deeply, and when I do, I'm having very intense and vivid dreams.

    Once again, thanks for the tips/advice, and I'll continue to update as things move forward. There isn't a lot of discussion about Tamoxifen on here, so hopefully, this will help other folks.

  13. #12
    Update:

    3.5 weeks on Tamoxifen.
    The positives:
    -The gynecomastia has all but resolved. It fluctuates throughout the day, at it's best I'm 95% better, at it's worst, 75%.
    -I've lost a lot of weight. I've dropped close to 5 lbs. It's a combination of muscle and fat - but a lot of stubborn belly fat is gone, finally. I was at 16% bf, now I'm down to 14%.

    The negatives: lots of side effects. Hairloss, acne, muscle ache, fatigue, low libido, weak orgasm, lethargy, depression.

    Currently taking 20mg a day, going to maybe drop down to 10mg - but wondering how I'll move forward. hCG+Nolva more or less negates itself. I feel *amazing* on hCG mono, but need to find a way to avoid the gyno.

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by HR_Watson View Post
    Update:

    3.5 weeks on Tamoxifen.
    The positives:
    -The gynecomastia has all but resolved. It fluctuates throughout the day, at it's best I'm 95% better, at it's worst, 75%.
    -I've lost a lot of weight. I've dropped close to 5 lbs. It's a combination of muscle and fat - but a lot of stubborn belly fat is gone, finally. I was at 16% bf, now I'm down to 14%.

    The negatives: lots of side effects. Hairloss, acne, muscle ache, fatigue, low libido, weak orgasm, lethargy, depression.

    Currently taking 20mg a day, going to maybe drop down to 10mg - but wondering how I'll move forward. hCG+Nolva more or less negates itself. I feel *amazing* on hCG mono, but need to find a way to avoid the gyno.
    I warned you that tamoxifen for some people is like poison. It makes me feel really lethargic. If I were you I would keep 20mg a day until it is gone (give it at least a few more weeks). Dropping to 10mg will likely not make you feel any better and it will take longer to resolve your gyno. Also i cannot emphasize this enough. Do not touch your nipples 24/7 it will only extend the time it takes for the gyno to resolve. Telling you all this with experience of someone that got rid of gyno with tamoxifen 4 times

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by HealthMan View Post
    I warned you that tamoxifen for some people is like poison. It makes me feel really lethargic. If I were you I would keep 20mg a day until it is gone (give it at least a few more weeks). Dropping to 10mg will likely not make you feel any better and it will take longer to resolve your gyno. Also i cannot emphasize this enough. Do not touch your nipples 24/7 it will only extend the time it takes for the gyno to resolve. Telling you all this with experience of someone that got rid of gyno with tamoxifen 4 times
    You weren't joking. The hairloss, lethargy and depresssion is the worst. I was fine for the first few weeks, but it really kicked in bad in the past week.

    Curious - you said you've done this four times now. How are you preventing gynecomastia in your current protocol?

  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by HR_Watson View Post
    You weren't joking. The hairloss, lethargy and depresssion is the worst. I was fine for the first few weeks, but it really kicked in bad in the past week.

    Curious - you said you've done this four times now. How are you preventing gynecomastia in your current protocol?
    I need to keep my estradiol below 30 or i get gyno. At the beginning i was using anastrozole. Now i dropped my dosage to 55mg E3.5D and I am no longer taking anastrozole. I have added DIM, calcium D Glucarate and zinc. I havenít tested my estradiol yet but so far no gyno.
    You have to find out what triggered your gyno. It was probably the estradiol but might be prolactin, low DHT, low T/E2 ratio. If it is estradiol that is causing the gyno try to reduce your testosterone/HCG dosage and use anastrozole if needed. I would aim for estradiol levels below 25-30 and see if that works.
    Sometimes it took me 3 mths to get rid of gyno with tamoxifen . But given what you posted here i am convinced you should have good success by extending the tamoxifen at 20mg a day until it is gone. Then drop to 10mg for 1 week and 5mg for another week and stop. Try to check the gyno just a few times a week. It will heal faster this way

  17. #16
    What is you Free Testosterone and SHBG? What is your current HCG mono therapy? Maybe you have room to decrease your dosage. Or maybe try testosterone injections (it should have a lower impact on estradiol than high dose HCG).

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by HealthMan View Post
    What is you Free Testosterone and SHBG? What is your current HCG mono therapy? Maybe you have room to decrease your dosage. Or maybe try testosterone injections (it should have a lower impact on estradiol than high dose HCG).
    I just had my blood drawn - waiting on the results.

    I don't know if I'm a great candidate for TRT - fertility is a big concern and my physician feels that if I'm getting gyno on hCG, I'll still be getting it on T.

    I'm currently doing 1500 IU of hCG. At 2000 IU I felt amazing, but that's what kicked in the gyno. Dropping down dosage once I had it didn't help.

    I've noticed that I feel best with both high T and high E. My prolactin was high for sure, so I suspect that might have been the cause.

    Yeah, the nolva is brutal. The weight loss is awesome, I look ripped - but everything else is pretty awful.

  19. #18
    Super Moderator Nelson Vergel's Avatar
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    I am working on creating a tamoxifen cream soon. Will let you guys know.
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  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by HR_Watson View Post
    I just had my blood drawn - waiting on the results.

    I don't know if I'm a great candidate for TRT - fertility is a big concern and my physician feels that if I'm getting gyno on hCG, I'll still be getting it on T.

    I'm currently doing 1500 IU of hCG. At 2000 IU I felt amazing, but that's what kicked in the gyno. Dropping down dosage once I had it didn't help.

    I've noticed that I feel best with both high T and high E. My prolactin was high for sure, so I suspect that might have been the cause.

    Yeah, the nolva is brutal. The weight loss is awesome, I look ripped - but everything else is pretty awful.
    If you didnít have gyno at 1500IU if I were you would switch back to this dosage. Keep the tamoxifen until gyno gone. Once gyno has started to develop a dosage reduction usually is not enough to get rid of it. But after it is gone if your e2 is under control you should have no issues with gyno comingo back.
    I also felt better with my e2 at around mid 30s but above 30 i always get gyno. At low to mid 20s I feel good as well and no gyno issues.

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Nelson Vergel View Post
    I am working on creating a tamoxifen cream soon. Will let you guys know.
    I think this is a great idea. In theory using a cream can avoid all the side effects. Back in the day i almost tried to crush a few tamoxifen pills and mix with a high absorption cream and apply on the skin to fight gyno. But I never followed through with the idea.

  22. #21
    More updates.

    So it's been a month, and in that time my physique has totally changed (for the better). I've lost around 5-6 lbs, and around 3% body fat. I look ripped in a way I never have, despite doing CrossFit 5 days a week and a healthy diet.

    Downsides: I'm super fatigued and have less energy at the gym. Low libido, weak orgasm still.

    I had dropped my dosage of Nolva down to 10mg a day, 20mg on my shot days, but as soon as I increased my hCG back from 1500iu to 2000iu, I could feel the gyno starting up again, so I'm back on 20mg daily - but I have a bit more energy, and my mood has improved.

    I basically need to find a healthy balance - and also figure out a way to maintain a T level of 900+, while lowering my E2.
    Anastrozole basically kills my libido, so I need to figure something else out.

    Had my blood drawn - pertinent levels:
    T: 829 (264-916)
    Free T: 25 (8.7-25.1)
    E2: 59 (7.6-42.6)
    Prolactin: 4.4 (4-15)

    So my E2 is crazy high - but the Nolva is telling my body to ignore it, so I'm losing weight like crazy, but I'm still having some downsides, libido wise.

    Most interesting is that my LH and FSH is basically non-existent. I was expecting that from the hCG suppression, but I thought the Nolva would have boosted it back up...
    Last edited by HR_Watson; 04-11-2018 at 01:31 PM.

  23. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by HR_Watson View Post
    More updates.

    So it's been a month, and in that time my physique has totally changed (for the better). I've lost around 5-6 lbs, and around 3% body fat. I look ripped in a way I never have, despite doing CrossFit 5 days a week and a healthy diet.

    Downsides: I'm super fatigued and have less energy at the gym. Low libido, weak orgasm still.

    I had dropped my dosage of Nolva down to 10mg a day, 20mg on my shot days, but as soon as I increased my hCG back from 1500iu to 2000iu, I could feel the gyno starting up again, so I'm back on 20mg daily - but I have a bit more energy, and my mood has improved.

    I basically need to find a healthy balance - and also figure out a way to maintain a T level of 900+, while lowering my E2.
    Anastrozole basically kills my libido, so I need to figure something else out.

    Had my blood drawn - pertinent levels:
    T: 829 (264-916)
    Free T: 25 (8.7-25.1)
    E2: 59 (7.6-42.6)
    Prolactin: 4.4 (4-15)

    So my E2 is crazy high - but the Nolva is telling my body to ignore it, so I'm losing weight like crazy, but I'm still having some downsides, libido wise.

    Most interesting is that my LH and FSH is basically non-existent. I was expecting that from the hCG suppression, but I thought the Nolva would have boosted it back up...
    You have a few options:
    - Reduce HCG dosage
    - Try more frequent HCG injections (maybe daily)
    - Try another AI
    - Stay on small dosage tamoxifen (not a good idea in my opinion)
    - Change to testosterone injections + HCG (you might be able to achieve same TT levels and lower estradiol)

    Your LH and FSH are low because your HPT axis is shutdown by the HCG. Tamoxifen will not override the HCG shutdown

  24. #23
    Basically Tamoxifen doesn't really lower your E2 but just binds the Estrogen receptor on the breast? I believe I have developed some gyno as well, unfortunately, a bit afraid of Tamoxifen

    Quote Originally Posted by HR_Watson View Post
    More updates.

    So it's been a month, and in that time my physique has totally changed (for the better). I've lost around 5-6 lbs, and around 3% body fat. I look ripped in a way I never have, despite doing CrossFit 5 days a week and a healthy diet.

    Downsides: I'm super fatigued and have less energy at the gym. Low libido, weak orgasm still.

    I had dropped my dosage of Nolva down to 10mg a day, 20mg on my shot days, but as soon as I increased my hCG back from 1500iu to 2000iu, I could feel the gyno starting up again, so I'm back on 20mg daily - but I have a bit more energy, and my mood has improved.

    I basically need to find a healthy balance - and also figure out a way to maintain a T level of 900+, while lowering my E2.
    Anastrozole basically kills my libido, so I need to figure something else out.

    Had my blood drawn - pertinent levels:
    T: 829 (264-916)
    Free T: 25 (8.7-25.1)
    E2: 59 (7.6-42.6)
    Prolactin: 4.4 (4-15)

    So my E2 is crazy high - but the Nolva is telling my body to ignore it, so I'm losing weight like crazy, but I'm still having some downsides, libido wise.

    Most interesting is that my LH and FSH is basically non-existent. I was expecting that from the hCG suppression, but I thought the Nolva would have boosted it back up...

  25. #24
    that is an amazing idea, wouldn't Empower compound it eventually?


    Quote Originally Posted by Nelson Vergel View Post
    I am working on creating a tamoxifen cream soon. Will let you guys know.

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