Calories and putting on muscle mass?

mpayton66 · Feb 8, 2018

FeelingLost said:
Using your picture what is your best guess for me. 20-25%?
I have put .25-.50" layer of fat on since I started this +500 calories over my base of 1850 four weeks ago.

I think ~20% is going to be close. Why don't you compare that to the Navy method of calculating body fat: http://fitness.bizcalcs.com/Calculator.asp?Calc=Body-Fat-Navy

And regardless of the actual bodyfat percentage, it's safe to say that you're above the point where calorie partioning is favorable. Losing fat slowly before a lean bulk would be my recommendation. And to keep as much of your muscle as possible, you need to keep the intensity of your workouts HIGH, but you can let your volume drop since you'll be working out while in a caloric deficit. A 30% drop (+/-) in volume is a good starting point. Let's say you're currently benching 225x8 for four sets. Try to maintain the same 225x8 scheme but only do three sets. Try not to get disappointed if your 225x8 becomes 215x8 or 225x7. Some loss of strength will occur, but most of that will return when you return to near-maintenance or the slight plus-maintenance calories of your lean bulk.

During your fatloss period, keep your protein level high (1g/lb or more), consume at least 0.5g/lb of fats, and the rest can be whatever you like (carbs or more protein & fat).

It's obvious that you workout, and losing several percent of bodyfat will make that look more pronounced with your shirt off

But it's the bodybuilder's dilemma: you lack definition when you look bigger in your clothes but you look smaller in your clothes when you have definition.

FeelingLost · Feb 8, 2018

Why don't you compare that to the Navy method of calculating body fat: http://fitness.bizcalcs.com/Calculat...=Body-Fat-Navy

Navy calculator came up with 18%

mpayton66 · Feb 9, 2018

FeelingLost said:
Navy calculator came up with 18%

I think that's a good estimate, and it's not important if it's 100% accurate or not--it's a benchmark. It's a benchmark that I think is reliable meaning that if you diet, exercise, and eat right (higher protein, lower carbs) and you later are calculated to be 15%, then that means that you're doing it right and headed in the right direction! With the BIA device, you could have fluctuations of several percent during a single day simply due to your level of hydration.

FeelingLost · Feb 9, 2018

mpayton66 said:
I think that's a good estimate, and it's not important if it's 100% accurate or not--it's a benchmark. It's a benchmark that I think is reliable meaning that if you diet, exercise, and eat right (higher protein, lower carbs) and you later are calculated to be 15%, then that means that you're doing it right and headed in the right direction! With the BIA device, you could have fluctuations of several percent during a single day simply due to your level of hydration.

I played around with the calculator a little bit. You can cheat pretty easy. If you just exersize your neck and get a 17" to 18" my 18% drops to 15% and the BF catagory goes from acceptable to fit. haha
It is a good data set, just don't cheat, I will use it in the future to help track my progress..

mpayton66 · Feb 9, 2018

195# @ 18% bodyfat means ~160# of lean mass. ASSUMING YOU CAN HOLD ONTO ALL 160# AS YOU DIET, then dropping to 186# would mean a bodyfat of 14% which is better for calorie partitioning. And 182# (with 160# lean) is a bodyfat of 12%. Now there's nothin' to it but to DO IT! So get 'er done

FeelingLost said:
I played around with the calculator a little bit. You can cheat pretty easy. If you just exersize your neck and get a 17" to 18" my 18% drops to 15% and the BF catagory goes from acceptable to fit. haha
It is a good data set, just don't cheat, I will use it in the future to help track my progress..

madman · Feb 10, 2018

FeelingLost said:
I have read here on the forum you need to eat a surplus of about 500 calories over your recommended caloric intake based on your weight. For me that is 1850 + 500 = 2350
I have been doing this and stepping up my workouts at the gym for about 4 weeks and I am seeing my layer of fat increase. Basicly my fat is growing faster than my muscles and it is not just in my belly but over all body fat.

At what point do you stop the excess calories to lose the fat?

Also am I doing something wrong here are you suppost to be putting on fat during this process?

I am getting the extra calories by adding 3 egg whites 1 yoke(234) 1 whole avocado (235)

My main diet is
40% protein(steak, chicken breast, cod)
35% good fats(avocado, nuts, olive oil, smoked salmon)
20% carbs(salids all raw veggies) no starch like potatos
5% sugar( from fruit bananas, pears, grapefruit)

The only sugars I eat are what is naturally in the foods no added sugar.

Disclaimer: I have never been a bodybuilder or joined a gym until now just very active outdoors, mtn biking, hiking, climbing in the Rockies. So I am a complete noob when it comes to weight lifting. Using youtube I have learned most of the exersizes and I follow several weightlifting coaches that do weekly YT posts. I pick all my exersizes from them. I don't follow anyones complete program.

I have also learned the names for all the major muscle groups. So now you kind of know my lvl of expertise it not very much.

When one is in a calories surplus (250-500 cal/day) and looking to add some muscle mass COMPLEX CARBS are key!

I would say your downfall is lack of starch and your diet macros are composed of mainly fats/proteins. Sure low carb/moderate protein/higher fat diets work exceptionally well for shedding body fat/maintaining muscle but as far as gaining muscle mass complex carbs are much more effective.

Muscle cells are roughly 30% protein (actin/myosin) and 70% water.............whats that 70% water!

The human body is capable of storing 500 grams of carbohydrate as glycogen before glycogen stores become full and for roughly every gram of glycogen stored 3 grams of of water is pulled along with it intracellularly.

Having a glycogen stores topped up will allow one to train with higher intensity/endurance when lifting weights (anerobic),fuller/harder muscles/better gains in strength and muscle mass/increased pumps/vascularity and increased recovery.

So many people think negatively of carbohydrates when in fact as long as one has a descent insulin sensitivity and is not obese than low g.i. complex carbs can do wonders for gaining muscle/strength in the gym.

The key here is to try a moderate carb/moderate protein/lower fat diet.

I would say 1 gram protein/lb lean body mass so if you were roughly 200 lbs muscle than 200 grams protein/day= 800 cal.

1 gram carb/lb from complex starchy sources (oats/beans and lentils/basmati rice/quinoa/yams and sweet potato/buckwheat/soba noodles/whole wheat pasta) so 200 grams carbs/day= 800 cal (say 5 meals/day 40 grams carbs each meal or 4 meals/day 50 grams carbs each meal).

Last but not least make up the rest of the calories from healthy fats (EFAs most important,olive oil,coconut oil,grass fed butter,egg yolk and so on) to meet your daily calorie goals (250-500 cal/day above maintenance) when looking to add muscle. I would start at 250 and work your way up depending on weight gain.

Your protein is already too high as in a calorie surplus 1 gram/lb is more than enough to see growth where as when in a calories deficit 1.5 grams/lb is more sensible.

I would say do a 360 and look at increasing your complex carbs and lowering your proteins/fats.

Of course ones genetics/insulin sensitivity plays a big role but trust me on this one try eating 200 grams complex carbs and work out the fat/protein amounts as I stated.

Even though you are going to be in a slight calorie surplus any carbs you do not burn for energy are going to be stored as glycogen in the muscle cells before any excess could converted and stored as fat.

I will put money on it that you will find a new found increase in strength/energy in the gym, your muscles will be bigger and harder and you will feel improvements in recovery.

I would not be surprised seeing that you have basically been low carb for awhile that you will gain 5-8 pounds (muscle tissue/stored glycogen and water in the muscle) within 2-3 months as long as you are lifting hard and have your diet in check.

If I had a choice of following a low carb/moderate-high protein/higher fat diet or a moderate-high carb/moderate protein/lower fat diet when in a CALORIE SURPLUS and looking to gain muscle mass while still staying relatively lean I would choose the moderate-high carb diet hands down every time.

Sure the lower carb diet would be more effective for getting that ripped/lean muscular look but as far as adding muscle mass/size and gaining overall muscle/strength COMPLEX CARBS hand down!

I am on the opposite end of the spectrum as I was consuming 500 grams carbs daily and just recently increased to 650 grams/day along with moderate protein and low fats and am currently taking in a whopping 4200 calories/day.............................mind you my carb tolerance is freakish.

madman · Feb 11, 2018

FeelingLost said:
I have read here on the forum you need to eat a surplus of about 500 calories over your recommended caloric intake based on your weight. For me that is 1850 + 500 = 2350
I have been doing this and stepping up my workouts at the gym for about 4 weeks and I am seeing my layer of fat increase. Basicly my fat is growing faster than my muscles and it is not just in my belly but over all body fat.

At what point do you stop the excess calories to lose the fat?

Also am I doing something wrong here are you suppost to be putting on fat during this process?

I am getting the extra calories by adding 3 egg whites 1 yoke(234) 1 whole avocado (235)

My main diet is
40% protein(steak, chicken breast, cod)
35% good fats(avocado, nuts, olive oil, smoked salmon)
20% carbs(salids all raw veggies) no starch like potatos
5% sugar( from fruit bananas, pears, grapefruit)

The only sugars I eat are what is naturally in the foods no added sugar.

Disclaimer: I have never been a bodybuilder or joined a gym until now just very active outdoors, mtn biking, hiking, climbing in the Rockies. So I am a complete noob when it comes to weight lifting. Using youtube I have learned most of the exersizes and I follow several weightlifting coaches that do weekly YT posts. I pick all my exersizes from them. I don't follow anyones complete program.

I have also learned the names for all the major muscle groups. So now you kind of know my lvl of expertise it not very much.

http://jasonferruggia.com/how-many-carbs-should-you-eat-per-day-to-build-muscle/

Nashtide · Feb 11, 2018

madman said:
When one is in a calories surplus (250-500 cal/day) and looking to add some muscle mass COMPLEX CARBS are key!

I would say your downfall is lack of starch and your diet macros are composed of mainly fats/proteins. Sure low carb/moderate protein/higher fat diets work exceptionally well for shedding body fat/maintaining muscle but as far as gaining muscle mass complex carbs are much more effective.

Muscle cells are roughly 30% protein (actin/myosin) and 70% water.............whats that 70% water!

The human body is capable of storing 500 grams of carbohydrate as glycogen before glycogen stores become full and for roughly every gram of glycogen stored 3 grams of of water is pulled along with it intracellularly.

Having a glycogen stores topped up will allow one to train with higher intensity/endurance when lifting weights (anerobic),fuller/harder muscles/better gains in strength and muscle mass/increased pumps/vascularity and increased recovery.

So many people think negatively of carbohydrates when in fact as long as one has a descent insulin sensitivity and is not obese than low g.i. complex carbs can do wonders for gaining muscle/strength in the gym.

The key here is to try a moderate carb/moderate protein/lower fat diet.

I would say 1 gram protein/lb lean body mass so if you were roughly 200 lbs muscle than 200 grams protein/day= 800 cal.

1 gram carb/lb from complex starchy sources (oats/beans and lentils/basmati rice/quinoa/yams and sweet potato/buckwheat/soba noodles/whole wheat pasta) so 200 grams carbs/day= 800 cal (say 5 meals/day 40 grams carbs each meal or 4 meals/day 50 grams carbs each meal).

Last but not least make up the rest of the calories from healthy fats (EFAs most important,olive oil,coconut oil,grass fed butter,egg yolk and so on) to meet your daily calorie goals (250-500 cal/day above maintenance) when looking to add muscle. I would start at 250 and work your way up depending on weight gain.

Your protein is already too high as in a calorie surplus 1 gram/lb is more than enough to see growth where as when in a calories deficit 1.5 grams/lb is more sensible.

I would say do a 360 and look at increasing your complex carbs and lowering your proteins/fats.

Of course ones genetics/insulin sensitivity plays a big role but trust me on this one try eating 200 grams complex carbs and work out the fat/protein amounts as I stated.

Even though you are going to be in a slight calorie surplus any carbs you do not burn for energy are going to be stored as glycogen in the muscle cells before any excess could converted and stored as fat.

I will put money on it that you will find a new found increase in strength/energy in the gym, your muscles will be bigger and harder and you will feel improvements in recovery.

I would not be surprised seeing that you have basically been low carb for awhile that you will gain 5-8 pounds (muscle tissue/stored glycogen and water in the muscle) within 2-3 months as long as you are lifting hard and have your diet in check.

If I had a choice of following a low carb/moderate-high protein/higher fat diet or a moderate-high carb/moderate protein/lower fat diet when in a CALORIE SURPLUS and looking to gain muscle mass while still staying relatively lean I would choose the moderate-high carb diet hands down every time.

Sure the lower carb diet would be more effective for getting that ripped/lean muscular look but as far as adding muscle mass/size and gaining overall muscle/strength COMPLEX CARBS hand down!

I am on the opposite end of the spectrum as I was consuming 500 grams carbs daily and just recently increased to 650 grams/day along with moderate protein and low fats and am currently taking in a whopping 4200 calories/day.............................mind you my carb tolerance is freakish.

very sound advice. What I do to stay lean and muscular (I'm 56) is vary my carbs based on whether it's a workout day or not. On workout days I go moderate to moderate-high carbs made up of all kinds of carbs. On days I'm not working out, I go low carb. This has helped me to get and stay lean. On another note, I've also had good luck working out on an empty stomach. I used to lift after lunch. About 3 months ago I began lifting before lunch. Maybe 4 hours after breakfast. This has definitely made a difference in accelerating fat loss. I always end my workouts with some HIIT cardio. A side effect of this is I'm not as hungry for lunch on these days.

Saul · Feb 12, 2018

Nashtide said:
very sound advice. What I do to stay lean and muscular (I'm 56) is vary my carbs based on whether it's a workout day or not. On workout days I go moderate to moderate-high carbs made up of all kinds of carbs. On days I'm not working out, I go low carb. This has helped me to get and stay lean. On another note, I've also had good luck working out on an empty stomach. I used to lift after lunch. About 3 months ago I began lifting before lunch. Maybe 4 hours after breakfast. This has definitely made a difference in accelerating fat loss. I always end my workouts with some HIIT cardio. A side effect of this is I'm not as hungry for lunch on these days.

I agree with Madman and Nashtide. I have more complex carbs on work out days and if I have not worked out for a few days, I cut back the calories and carbs. The best fat loss I had was working out in the morning fasted. Not sure I made great muscle gains during that period but I lost fat during that period.

Nashtide · Feb 12, 2018

Saul said:
I agree with Madman and Nashtide. I have more complex carbs on work out days and if I have not worked out for a few days, I cut back the calories and carbs. The best fat loss I had was working out in the morning fasted. Not sure I made great muscle gains during that period but I lost fat during that period.

When I went from focusing on putting on muscle to dropping body fat I noticed the coolest thing. I actually look a good bit more muscular at 165lbs than I did at 173lbs.

SoCal Guy · Feb 13, 2018

FeelingLost said:
I have read here on the forum you need to eat a surplus of about 500 calories over your recommended caloric intake based on your weight. For me that is 1850 + 500 = 2350
I have been doing this and stepping up my workouts at the gym for about 4 weeks and I am seeing my layer of fat increase. Basicly my fat is growing faster than my muscles and it is not just in my belly but over all body fat.

At what point do you stop the excess calories to lose the fat?

Also am I doing something wrong here are you suppost to be putting on fat during this process?

I am getting the extra calories by adding 3 egg whites 1 yoke(234) 1 whole avocado (235)

My main diet is
40% protein(steak, chicken breast, cod)
35% good fats(avocado, nuts, olive oil, smoked salmon)
20% carbs(salads all raw veggies) no starch like potatos
5% sugar( from fruit bananas, pears, grapefruit)

The only sugars I eat are what is naturally in the foods no added sugar.

1) Drop the fruit - it's just sugar. Worse, it's mostly fructose, which leads to fatty liver.

2) What you are calling "salads" is your biggest problem. A "salad" is drenched in a ton of soybean oil-based "dressing" to make it edible. Soybean oil is among the most fattening, bad-for-you things you can ingest. You don't want ANY soybean oil in your diet.

If you are looking to stop getting fatter, eat more of the foods at top left of this chart, and stop eating any foods at bottom right [note that fruit and salad dressings (oils) are at bottom right]:

Minimizing carbs and maximizing protein -- ie, increasing the protein:non-protein ratio -- is how you drop fat while maintaining or adding muscle. The most extreme case of this is the PSMF diet, or "Protein-sparing modified fast". You don't need to go this far, but it is worth reading to understand why it is the gold-standard for weight loss while maintaining lean mass:

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.75.10.1190

Good luck!

Gianluca · Feb 14, 2018

Try this calculator to find your calories https://www.supertracker.usda.gov/bwp/index.html, but remember, to gain muscle mass you need to be in a Positive energy balance, meaning you need to get in more calories than you burn, so a little fat more on your belly for sometime is very fine, occasionally you can decrease calories to get leaner

T Dawg · Feb 14, 2018

Hey there feelinglost, once you get your eating dialed in

then you might wanna do some research on bodybuilding vs strength training. Big difference in the way you'll train depending on your goal. Last week I saw a 6' dude who didn't have big muscles walk up to 500 lbs and deadlift it several times with no lifting straps....amazing

. I'll be 60 this year and I like bodybuilding so I tend to lift lighter weights and put more focus on attaining a "muscle pump". I still lift at least one set that's heavy (for me), but that's not the bulk of my workout

. I've found that when I'm able to focus on the muscle and concentrate on contracting that muscle I can be effective with less weight. I have less injuries also

.

Mountain Man · Feb 15, 2018

T Dawg said:
Hey there feelinglost, once you get your eating dialed in then you might wanna do some research on bodybuilding vs strength training. Big difference in the way you'll train depending on your goal. Last week I saw a 6' dude who didn't have big muscles walk up to 500 lbs and deadlift it several times with no lifting straps....amazing. I'll be 60 this year and I like bodybuilding so I tend to lift lighter weights and put more focus on attaining a "muscle pump". I still lift at least one set that's heavy (for me), but that's not the bulk of my workout. I've found that when I'm able to focus on the muscle and concentrate on contracting that muscle I can be effective with less weight. I have less injuries also.

Agree with TD. At 64 and having had hip,knee, and shoulder surgery...pins replacements and the whole 9 yards, I have given up weights for resistance bands. I work fast, less than 15 second rest and workout virtually nonstop for 45 minutes, as the can be adjusted on the fly. No joint problem, safer, and convenient. I work the muscle, focusing in on the pump. I have put on 5 solid pounds since I have added Gene's Stack and creatine to my regimen. 5 pounds may not be much, but I think it's good considering my age and lowering bod fat at the same time. My avitar picture is the recent result.

I am am trying to put on muscle and keep as ripped as possible. Too much weight in your 60s=not good. More muscle = more protection.

Nashtide · Feb 15, 2018

T Dawg said:
Hey there feelinglost, once you get your eating dialed in then you might wanna do some research on bodybuilding vs strength training. Big difference in the way you'll train depending on your goal. Last week I saw a 6' dude who didn't have big muscles walk up to 500 lbs and deadlift it several times with no lifting straps....amazing. I'll be 60 this year and I like bodybuilding so I tend to lift lighter weights and put more focus on attaining a "muscle pump". I still lift at least one set that's heavy (for me), but that's not the bulk of my workout. I've found that when I'm able to focus on the muscle and concentrate on contracting that muscle I can be effective with less weight. I have less injuries also.

By lighter weights, what exactly are you talking about? How many reps? I'm 56 and have also modified my workouts. I do primarily the machines and use free weights very sparingly. However, I do still lift pretty heavy. I'm very open to change if it's going to be better for me in the long run. I usually keep the rep range between 6-8. What rep range is considered lighter?

FeelingLost · Feb 15, 2018

T Dawg said:
Hey there feelinglost, once you get your eating dialed in then you might wanna do some research on bodybuilding vs strength training. Big difference in the way you'll train depending on your goal. Last week I saw a 6' dude who didn't have big muscles walk up to 500 lbs and deadlift it several times with no lifting straps....amazing. I'll be 60 this year and I like bodybuilding so I tend to lift lighter weights and put more focus on attaining a "muscle pump". I still lift at least one set that's heavy (for me), but that's not the bulk of my workout. I've found that when I'm able to focus on the muscle and concentrate on contracting that muscle I can be effective with less weight. I have less injuries also.

Mountain Man said:
Agree with TD. At 64 and having had hip,knee, and shoulder surgery...pins replacements and the whole 9 yards, I have given up weights for resistance bands. I work fast, less than 15 second rest and workout virtually nonstop for 45 minutes, as the can be adjusted on the fly. No joint problem, safer, and convenient. I work the muscle, focusing in on the pump. I have put on 5 solid pounds since I have added Gene’s Stack and creatine to my regimen. 5 pounds may not be much, but I think it’s good considering my age and lowering bod fat at the same time. My avitar picture is the recent result.

I am am trying to put on muscle and keep as ripped as possible. Too much weight in your 60s=not good. More muscle = more protection.

Hi T Dawg and Mtn Man,
Thank you both for your tips and ideas.
MtnMan ever since you and I first spoke about bands I purchased a small set and use them to warm up with typically 2 sets of 25-50 reps.
I have not been able to use bands exclusively I really enjoy the free weights and machines my local gym offers weight size ego.

T Dawg, I hear you and being 64 I worry more about injury than how quick I can grow.

I am not sure what the standard is for high reps most of my exersizes after band warm ups consist of 4 set 16 reps. I choose my weight by experimenting. The last 3-4 reps of each set burns. The last set of 4 is to failure even if that is more than 16 reps. When that happens I usually know I can increase the weight ever so slightly the next time. I will work a muscle group 4 times with different body weight exersizes/machines/free weights. So 4 sets 16 reps 4 times. Then rest that muscle group 3-4 days.

The only muscle group I workout different is abs and obliques. All of them are reps between 25-100 per set with 4 sets.

Calories and putting on muscle mass?

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