1. #1

    What Would a Daily Protocol Look Like For Me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    It sounds like more members are injecting testosterone daily. It seems like it would be a tough protocol to follow. I was wondering, do the benefits of injecting daily really outweigh the disadvantages?
    Hey guys! New here and have been on and off TRT for some time. Currently I have been on trt for 1 year with a popular clinic. I've been on an EOD protocol for a year and haven't really felt much better. My anxiety is through the roof and I have to take clonopin for it 1mg 2x daily usually. I used to take lexapro and before that paxil prior to that. My primary care doc wants to put me back on paxil but I'm wondering if I can get dialed in on TRT maybe I won't need it.

    I'm lowish SHBG 12.4 on recent labs and 19.4 on the one before that (labcorp goes up to 55).

    My current protocol is:



    200 IU HCG EOD
    40MG T cyp EOD
    200mg of DIM daily
    I've always had high hematocrit currently at 51 with donating. Pre TRT I was at 48 I believe.

    What would a daily TRT plan look like for me? I'm guessing 20mg or 15mg daily of test cyp, 100iu or 50iu or 75iu HCG daily and 100mg DIM daily?

    My sensitive estrogen is at 23.2 and has gone up to 40 without DIM. Free test 21.3 and total t at 897. In the afternoon the day after my t shot I'm in the low 500s for total T.

    I also should mention I inject sub q in the belly with T with a 29 n 1/2" needle and use the same needle to do HCG in my upper thigh. I feel like since going sub q for test I've lost this since of well being because I used to use a 27 gauge 1 inch needle in glutes and felt better.

    Any help is greatly appreciated I'm 29 and tried the clomid route and could only get up to 410 total t and then when I stopped I went back to my normal t level of 208.

    I've missed a lot of work because of these panic attacks so I really need help.

    Thanks so much!

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  3. #2
    Welcome to Excelmale. Your post was moved to start a thread of your own - you're far more likely to generate interest and discussion if you post in this manner rather than at the bottom of the third page of a previous thread!

    I'm a big believer in the efficacy of a daily protocol, having followed one with great success for over two and a half years. Most men don't need to inject on a daily basis, and not everyone who does achieves their goal. That said, it's a rational approach for a man with low SHBG, which you have to deal with TRT.

    However, you discuss what a potential daily protocol would look like - and you reference some of the medical issues you also deal with - but you don't post your most recent, complete lab results. Some are there, SHBG and estradiol, but what about total and free testosterone? What are you hitting with your current protocol and an SHBG of 12.4?
    I am not a physician. Comments offered here are for discussion purposes only. Please consult your doctor before initiating, changing, or stopping any therapy.

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoastWatcher View Post
    Welcome to Excelmale. Your post was moved to start a thread of your own - you're far more likely to generate interest and discussion if you post in this manner rather than at the bottom of the third page of a previous thread!

    I'm a big believer in the efficacy of a daily protocol, having followed one with great success for over two and a half years. Most men don't need to inject on a daily basis, and not everyone who does achieves their goal. That said, it's a rational approach for a man with low SHBG, which you have to deal with TRT.

    However, you discuss what a potential daily protocol would look like - and you reference some of the medical issues you also deal with - but you don't post your most recent, complete lab results. Some are there, SHBG and estradiol, but what about total and free testosterone? What are you hitting with your current protocol and an SHBG of 12.4?
    Hey thanks so much for the quick reply, I really greatly appreciate it!

    I read a lot of your posts and it is awesome to get someone in here who knows all about daily protocols like you!

    Anyways though, what's the best way to post lab results from Labcorp through here? It has all of my personal information and it would take up several pages. Are there any specific results that you want? I have had 3 full labs done within the last year.

    Here is an example of my most recent lab result:

    SHBG: 16.0 (range: 16.5 - 55.9)
    Free T: 27.6 (range: 9.3 -26.5)
    Total T: 829
    Estrogen Sensitive: 39.3 (range 8.0-35).

    The 12.4 SHBG one that I was referencing looks like it was from a few months ago.

    I can provide whatever you need so please help. Thank you!

    *updating with labs below*

    Here is my labs from before TRT, on Clomid, and finally on TRT (The labs from March 2015 are prior to TRT when I was just doing a bunch of Male Blood Tests and found out I had higher cholesterol.


    The labs from December 2016 are prior to TRT but when I was on Clomid 25mg ED trying to restart my levels but it did not work so I went to Defy.


    The labs from April 2017 are when I was on TRT for 3-4 months at 40mg of Test Cyp and 200iu of HCG EOD.


    The labs from August 2017 are on TRT for 8 months total at the same protocol above).





















    Last edited by Storm; 01-13-2018 at 03:51 PM. Reason: updated with labs

  5. #4
    40mg EOD is a a bit much for a guy with low SHBG, I'm having trouble with 20mg EOD with an SHBG of 18-20 nmol/L. We low SHBG guys can barely tolerate estrogen since we have so much of it free in the same way we have more free T do to low SHBG.

    I had to lower my dose to 17.5mg EOD (70mg total weekly) and am starting to feel a little better every day since my reduction. If your E2 and free estrogen are high than that would explain why you feel nothing, when E2 is high it limits testosterone's effects on your receptors.

    When my E2 started climbing gradually 3 months ago I notice my testes start pulling up and very slowly TRT eventually stopped working and brain fog was returning, this was exactly how I felt before TRT. E2 is going down and I'm starting to feel the way I did before I increased my dosage, reducing my dosage is making me feel better, so perhaps it can for you.

    There are those who believe including myself that in order for a low SHBG guy to get dialed in you need to focus on your free estrogen.

    Here's a thread on E2 levels for low SHBG guys -->

    https://www.excelmale.com/showthread...-low-SHBG-guys
    Last edited by Systemlord; 01-13-2018 at 04:01 PM.

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoastWatcher View Post
    Welcome to Excelmale. Your post was moved to start a thread of your own - you're far more likely to generate interest and discussion if you post in this manner rather than at the bottom of the third page of a previous thread!

    I'm a big believer in the efficacy of a daily protocol, having followed one with great success for over two and a half years. Most men don't need to inject on a daily basis, and not everyone who does achieves their goal. That said, it's a rational approach for a man with low SHBG, which you have to deal with TRT.

    However, you discuss what a potential daily protocol would look like - and you reference some of the medical issues you also deal with - but you don't post your most recent, complete lab results. Some are there, SHBG and estradiol, but what about total and free testosterone? What are you hitting with your current protocol and an SHBG of 12.4?
    Please see first post it has my labs from 2015 (before TRT) all the way until August 2017. I have new labs from November but don't have files of them yet. Those are the ones I just gave you in my previous post though. Let me know if you need any other numbers from the November 2017 ones. Thanks!

  7. #6
    Your numbers look good except that when doing a daily or EOD protocol your numbers usually show higher because there is less trough between injections. So typically when someone does daily protocol we see even higher numbers. With that in mind I'd say your numbers look a little low. Have you tried more T in the past and did it help? Coastwatcher states an important point about low shbg guys using daily shots, it's s common protocol. So if you want to try it I would suggest this as a daily starting protocol. 20mg Test, and 100iu of HCG. Wait 6 weeks and then get labs. You may not need DIM anymore. Also you can put testosterone and HCG in the same syringe together and do just one injection per day. That's what I do and Nelson does too. There is a video on it here.

    Also you should get some labs for your thyroid and DHEA etc and see if it looks good or not. Regular physicians do not check thyroid properly compared to some HRT doc's who know what they are doing.

    Ok I see your labs now. Your ferritin is low and that causes lower FT3. So my guess is Dr. Saya may get you to supplement some iron. Dr. Saya is one of the best MD's so that's good. Once you raise your ferritin your FT3 should go up some and the T3 will start to get into your cells which means you would start feeling better.
    Last edited by ratbag; 01-13-2018 at 04:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratbag View Post
    Your numbers look good except that when doing a daily or EOD protocol your numbers usually show higher because there is less trough between injections. So typically when someone does daily protocol we see even higher numbers. With that in mind I'd say your numbers look a little low. Have you tried more T in the past and did it help? Coastwatcher states an important point about low shbg guys using daily shots, it's s common protocol. So if you want to try it I would suggest this as a daily starting protocol. 20mg Test, and 100iu of HCG. Wait 6 weeks and then get labs. You may not need DIM anymore. Also you can put testosterone and HCG in the same syringe together and do just one injection per day. That's what I do and Nelson does too. There is a video on it here.

    Also you should get some labs for your thyroid and DHEA etc and see if it looks good or not. Regular physicians do not check thyroid properly compared to some HRT doc's who know what they are doing.

    Ok I see your labs now. Your ferritin is low and that causes lower FT3. So my guess is Dr. Saya may get you to supplement some iron. Dr. Saya is one of the best MD's so that's good. Once you raise your ferritin your FT3 should go up some and the T3 will start to get into your cells which means you would start feeling better.
    Thanks so much for the reply! So it sounds like you agree on my starting protocol for daily test/hcg injections which is awesome! I stopped DIM on my recent labs and my estrogen was at almost 40 sensitive but like you said, maybe I won't need it. I have actually already started doing iron (just one pill with vitamin C 500mg) daily but the only concern there is my Hematocrit going up even more with the Iron so I definitely need to keep an eye on it.

    I have heard of putting the test and HCG together but isn't it easy to drop say test or hcg into the other ones bottle this way? What size syringe do you use and where do you inject? Like I previously stated, I used to do intramuscular injections for test cyp in my glutes with a longer needle and felt like it worked way better than what I'm currently doing (injecting test into my stomach with a 29 1/2" needle). Also I switched hcg to my upper thigh with the same needle as well. Since switching this up, it doesn't seem like I feel as good either. Any opinions/suggestions on this? I don't get what shallow IM injection is? Do you just not pinch the skin and inject in the upper thigh or shoulder? I need to get back to work and this stuff is driving me crazy. Please help . Thanks

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    System lord- For some reason I can't quote your post here is my reply to you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Systemlord View Post
    40mg EOD is a a bit much for a guy with low SHBG, I'm having trouble with 20mg EOD with an SHBG of 18-20 nmol/L. We low SHBG guys can barely tolerate estrogen since we have so much of it free in the same way we have more free T do to low SHBG.

    I had to lower my dose to 17.5mg EOD (70mg total weekly) and am starting to feel a little better every day since my reduction. If your E2 and free estrogen are high than that would explain why you feel nothing, when E2 is high it limits testosterone's effects on your receptors.

    When my E2 started climbing gradually 3 months ago I notice my testes start pulling up and very slowly TRT eventually stopped working and brain fog was returning, this was exactly how I felt before TRT. E2 is going down and I'm starting to feel the way I did before I increased my dosage, reducing my dosage is making me feel better, so perhaps it can for you.

    There are those who believe including myself that in order for a low SHBG guy to get dialed in you need to focus on your free numbers free estrogen.

    Here's a thread on E2 levels for low SHBG guys -->

    https://www.excelmale.com/showthread...-low-SHBG-guys
    Hi there thanks so much for the reply! What do you mean by free estrogen? Is that non sensitive or sensitive estrogen? For the most part my estrogen has been controlled with just DIM 200mg ED. The recent labs I just had where my estrogen was closer to 40 sensitive was when I stopped taking the DIM completely to see where it would fall without it. Can you please look at all of the labs I posted? I posted 2015's lab results for when I first noticed I had low T, 2016's where I was on clomid and then 2017's on T with Defy. Thank you much!

  10. #9
    I use a 27guage 1/2" syringe and when we say shallow IM we mean using a 1/2" needle and injecting into the muscle . Normally IM (Intramuscular) injections use a 1" needle. Pinching the skin and injecting under the skin only is called Subcutaneous or SC or SQ. Some people respond well to SC and others don't. I respond better to shallow IM. I inject into my shoulder. No worries mixing into the syringe. I sometimes load my syringe with 4 different products at once. There is never a problem providing you do not allow a vacume to happen in any of your vials. So every day I take a syringe and pull the plunger out and I insert the needle into the vial to equalize it so there is no vacume or pressure. This way you are assured that nothing will get sucked out of the syringe into the vial.

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm View Post
    System lord- For some reason I can't quote your post here is my reply to you:


    Hi there thanks so much for the reply! What do you mean by free estrogen? Is that non sensitive or sensitive estrogen? For the most part my estrogen has been controlled with just DIM 200mg ED. The recent labs I just had where my estrogen was closer to 40 sensitive was when I stopped taking the DIM completely to see where it would fall without it. Can you please look at all of the labs I posted? I posted 2015's lab results for when I first noticed I had low T, 2016's where I was on clomid and then 2017's on T with Defy. Thank you much!
    We have out total testosterone and free testosterone, TT is inactive (reservoir) and FT is active hormone which is what's responsible for actual feel good changes that occur in the body. We also have estrogen and free estrogen, if your estrogen is 20 your free estrogen can change without your regular estrogen changing.

    I believe this is why I hear so often low SHBG guys claiming TRT doesn't work, not all but some of those cases. I spent 3 months with my TT in the 800-900's and FT at the top of range (no AI, no HCG) and slowly TRT felt as if it's effectiveness was waning and I was beginning to feel low T again. I got to a point where I couldn't remember one of my neighbors name, I knew something was wrong as this was when that light in my head went off.

    My labs indicated my E2 levels were mid 40's, for a low SHBG guy this is bad. My SHBG is higher than yours so I could only imagine your free estrogen level. The lower your SHBG the higher your free testosterone and free estrogen, if regular estrogen is high for a low SHBG guy, free estrogen is expect to be high!

    I believe calcium D glucarate and DIM should be used on low SHBG guys do to the abundance of free hormones do to low SHBG. a regular estrogen of 19 could still be high for a guy with low SHBG if free estrogen is high.

  12. #11
    If fertility is a concern i would reconsider small daily HCG dosages and stick to at least 400-500IU 2x a week. A higher peak in plasma HCG in my experience is important to preserve fertility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratbag View Post
    I use a 27guage 1/2" syringe and when we say shallow IM we mean using a 1/2" needle and injecting into the muscle . Normally IM (Intramuscular) injections use a 1" needle. Pinching the skin and injecting under the skin only is called Subcutaneous or SC or SQ. Some people respond well to SC and others don't. I respond better to shallow IM. I inject into my shoulder. No worries mixing into the syringe. I sometimes load my syringe with 4 different products at once. There is never a problem providing you do not allow a vacume to happen in any of your vials. So every day I take a syringe and pull the plunger out and I insert the needle into the vial to equalize it so there is no vacume or pressure. This way you are assured that nothing will get sucked out of the syringe into the vial.
    Thank you so much for this info. I will definitely do the shallow intramuscular. I did 20mg of test in my thigh today with a 29 1/2 needle. Do you do the same for hcg or should I just stick to sub q stomach injections for hcg? I was just going to do 2 separate needles and cannot decide if I should do daily hcg or 2x per week in higher doses since I am concerned with fertility. Thoughts on fertility? I'm only 29 newly engaged. I definitely want kids in a few years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Systemlord View Post
    We have out total testosterone and free testosterone, TT is inactive (reservoir) and FT is active hormone which is what's responsible for actual feel good changes that occur in the body. We also have estrogen and free estrogen, if your estrogen is 20 your free estrogen can change without your regular estrogen changing.

    I believe this is why I hear so often low SHBG guys claiming TRT doesn't work, not all but some of those cases. I spent 3 months with my TT in the 800-900's and FT at the top of range (no AI, no HCG) and slowly TRT felt as if it's effectiveness was waning and I was beginning to feel low T again. I got to a point where I couldn't remember one of my neighbors name, I knew something was wrong as this was when that light in my head went off.

    My labs indicated my E2 levels were mid 40's, for a low SHBG guy this is bad. My SHBG is higher than yours so I could only imagine your free estrogen level. The lower your SHBG the higher your free testosterone and free estrogen, if regular estrogen is high for a low SHBG guy, free estrogen is expect to be high!

    I believe calcium D glucarate and DIM should be used on low SHBG guys do to the abundance of free hormones do to low SHBG. a regular estrogen of 19 could still be high for a guy with low SHBG if free estrogen is high.
    Holy cow man I'm sooooo confused now. So you don't think the new protocol I'm thinking will work? Have I not tested free estrogen then yet on the labs I posted? I just know pre-trt my anxiety was through the roof and now it is back to that. What do you feel like your levels need to be at to feel good again? I can definitely start taking calcum D glucrate as well. Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by HealthMan View Post
    If fertility is a concern i would reconsider small daily HCG dosages and stick to at least 400-500IU 2x a week. A higher peak in plasma HCG in my experience is important to preserve fertility.
    Hey thanks for the reply I'm 29 and engaged so definitely want kids in a few years when fiance gets out of pharm school. Will I feel better on hcg 100iu daily though? Why won't that give me good fertilty since I'm ending up with around the same per week overall? Please explain this more so I know. What protocol do you think is best? Thanks much

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systemlord View Post
    We have out total testosterone and free testosterone, TT is inactive (reservoir) and FT is active hormone which is what's responsible for actual feel good changes that occur in the body. We also have estrogen and free estrogen, if your estrogen is 20 your free estrogen can change without your regular estrogen changing.

    I believe this is why I hear so often low SHBG guys claiming TRT doesn't work, not all but some of those cases. I spent 3 months with my TT in the 800-900's and FT at the top of range (no AI, no HCG) and slowly TRT felt as if it's effectiveness was waning and I was beginning to feel low T again. I got to a point where I couldn't remember one of my neighbors name, I knew something was wrong as this was when that light in my head went off.

    My labs indicated my E2 levels were mid 40's, for a low SHBG guy this is bad. My SHBG is higher than yours so I could only imagine your free estrogen level. The lower your SHBG the higher your free testosterone and free estrogen, if regular estrogen is high for a low SHBG guy, free estrogen is expect to be high!

    I believe calcium D glucarate and DIM should be used on low SHBG guys do to the abundance of free hormones do to low SHBG. a regular estrogen of 19 could still be high for a guy with low SHBG if free estrogen is high.
    Not all of TT is (inactive), Total Testosterone = SHBG bound t and albumin bound t and Bioavailable Testosterone (active)= free testosterone+ albumin bound t.

    Not only free t but the weakly bound albumin t is also active hence BIO AVAILABLE TESTOSTERONE.

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm View Post
    Thank you so much for this info. I will definitely do the shallow intramuscular. I did 20mg of test in my thigh today with a 29 1/2 needle. Do you do the same for hcg or should I just stick to sub q stomach injections for hcg? I was just going to do 2 separate needles and cannot decide if I should do daily hcg or 2x per week in higher doses since I am concerned with fertility. Thoughts on fertility? I'm only 29 newly engaged. I definitely want kids in a few years.


    Holy cow man I'm sooooo confused now. So you don't think the new protocol I'm thinking will work? Have I not tested free estrogen then yet on the labs I posted? I just know pre-trt my anxiety was through the roof and now it is back to that. What do you feel like your levels need to be at to feel good again? I can definitely start taking calcum D glucrate as well. Thanks


    Hey thanks for the reply I'm 29 and engaged so definitely want kids in a few years when fiance gets out of pharm school. Will I feel better on hcg 100iu daily though? Why won't that give me good fertilty since I'm ending up with around the same per week overall? Please explain this more so I know. What protocol do you think is best? Thanks much
    Everyone is different and just because it didn't work for me doesn't mean it won't work for you. E2 is metabolized by the liver and cleared out of the body through the bowel, if this process is not working optimally it can lead to either high levels of estrogen. Keep working your way down until you start to feel better, when that happens you can lower your dose again until you find that sweet spot. It's a marathon not a sprint.

    Quote Originally Posted by madman View Post
    Not all of TT is (inactive), Total Testosterone = SHBG bound t and albumin bound t and Bioavailable Testosterone (active)= free testosterone+ albumin bound t.

    Not only free t but the weakly bound albumin t is also active hence BIO AVAILABLE TESTOSTERONE.
    I learn something new everyday. Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratbag View Post
    I use a 27guage 1/2" syringe and when we say shallow IM we mean using a 1/2" needle and injecting into the muscle . Normally IM (Intramuscular) injections use a 1" needle. Pinching the skin and injecting under the skin only is called Subcutaneous or SC or SQ. Some people respond well to SC and others don't. I respond better to shallow IM. I inject into my shoulder. No worries mixing into the syringe. I sometimes load my syringe with 4 different products at once. There is never a problem providing you do not allow a vacume to happen in any of your vials. So every day I take a syringe and pull the plunger out and I insert the needle into the vial to equalize it so there is no vacume or pressure. This way you are assured that nothing will get sucked out of the syringe into the vial.
    Quote Originally Posted by Systemlord View Post
    We have out total testosterone and free testosterone, TT is inactive (reservoir) and FT is active hormone which is what's responsible for actual feel good changes that occur in the body. We also have estrogen and free estrogen, if your estrogen is 20 your free estrogen can change without your regular estrogen changing.

    I believe this is why I hear so often low SHBG guys claiming TRT doesn't work, not all but some of those cases. I spent 3 months with my TT in the 800-900's and FT at the top of range (no AI, no HCG) and slowly TRT felt as if it's effectiveness was waning and I was beginning to feel low T again. I got to a point where I couldn't remember one of my neighbors name, I knew something was wrong as this was when that light in my head went off.

    My labs indicated my E2 levels were mid 40's, for a low SHBG guy this is bad. My SHBG is higher than yours so I could only imagine your free estrogen level. The lower your SHBG the higher your free testosterone and free estrogen, if regular estrogen is high for a low SHBG guy, free estrogen is expect to be high!

    I believe calcium D glucarate and DIM should be used on low SHBG guys do to the abundance of free hormones do to low SHBG. a regular estrogen of 19 could still be high for a guy with low SHBG if free estrogen is high.
    Quote Originally Posted by HealthMan View Post
    If fertility is a concern i would reconsider small daily HCG dosages and stick to at least 400-500IU 2x a week. A higher peak in plasma HCG in my experience is important to preserve fertility.
    Quote Originally Posted by Systemlord View Post
    Everyone is different and just because it didn't work for me doesn't mean it won't work for you. E2 is metabolized by the liver and cleared out of the body through the bowel, if this process is not working optimally it can lead to either high levels of estrogen. Keep working your way down until you start to feel better, when that happens you can lower your dose again until you find that sweet spot. It's a marathon not a sprint.



    I learn something new everyday. Thanks
    So just go with the every day protocol of 20mg of test and hcg daily too or just hcg 2x per week? I'm so confused with all of this info and just want to feel better!

  17. #16
    I'm sorry I thought you meant 20mg EOD, 20mg ED is too much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Systemlord View Post
    I'm sorry I thought you meant 20mg EOD, 20mg ED is too much.
    If I did 20mg EOD that would land me probably in the 400s for total T though? I'm trying to switch to an every day protocol. So you think low SBGH guys need a low total t number to feel good ? What would I do for hcg dosing and day Then? There are so many different opinions it's hard to figure this out.

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    I'm switching to daily injections starting today. My current protocol is 50mg T cyp E3.5D. 0.30 adex at time of injections. 250iu of Hcg Monday and Friday. My goal is to lower my total T dose to 70mg per week in hopes of being able to drop the adex altogether. I'm not going to change Hcg protocol. I'll run labs in four weeks and monitor any high E2 symptoms.

  20. #19
    Given that E is such a personal thing I went to EOD and then to daily and it never changed the large amount of aromatase that I have going on and still require anastrozole. The point here is that when you get to 70mg +/- you're well below what anyone would consider a basic starting weekly (cumulative) dose of 100mg. To a point its chasing your tail if you get a Total trough of 500 just to control E then there's absolutely a point of diminishing returns. One point of caution is that there's absolutely no linear value to any of this, anywhere. It's a totally individualistic journey if you will. because one guy says he controls E with X dose, it's extremely unlikely that that will work of be of any therapeutic value for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Carter View Post
    Given that E is such a personal thing I went to EOD and then to daily and it never changed the large amount of aromatase that I have going on and still require anastrozole. The point here is that when you get to 70mg +/- you're well below what anyone would consider a basic starting weekly (cumulative) dose of 100mg. To a point its chasing your tail if you get a Total trough of 500 just to control E then there's absolutely a point of diminishing returns. One point of caution is that there's absolutely no linear value to any of this, anywhere. It's a totally individualistic journey if you will. because one guy says he controls E with X dose, it's extremely unlikely that that will work of be of any therapeutic value for you.
    I understand what you're saying. For whatever reason, I respond very well to the T cyp. At 100mg/week, my TT and FT are in the upper range. I'm going from memory, but I was around 900 TT the last time I tested. So I'm thinking reducing the dose to 70mg will still have me around high 600's. If I can get to that level and not need an AI, I'll be happy. Providing I feel good. As you stated, E2 is individual. I spent too much time chasing a number. I was convinced my E2 needed to be in the mid 20's. Now I'm not so sure. Anyway, I appreciate your input. I will keep y'all updated on my progress and will post labs in 5 weeks or so.

  22. #21
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    I know this thread is getting pretty long and this is off the subject. Has anybody talk to you about your lipid panel, it looks terrible. Makes me wonder if coronary artery disease runs in your family.
    I am not a medical practitioner. Any suggestions I provide are not medical recommendations and are just my opinions. Please consult with your physician on any matters concerning your health.

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    Hi Storm, If understand your original question it is. Will daily T injections fix my anxiety/panic attacks? IF so, how much should I inject?

    I turned to TRT just over a year ago because of depression/anxiety/panic attacks. I was taking BusPar 15mg/day and also had lorazipam for emergencies.

    My TT before TRT was 173. When my TT hit 350 most of my anxiety was resolved.
    My TT ebbed and flowed between 350 and 630. I was able to get off my anxiety meds.
    I also did major diet changes(no more fast food, no bread no processed sugar) and joined a gym. I lost 30# and my triglycerides dropped to double digits

    Reading your last blood tests it does not look like your male harmones are the reasons you have anxiety.
    Your numbers look too good. You need to start looking else where for the cause of your anxiety. I don't think going from EOD to daily is going to do anything for your mental state.

    Best of luck. I know how you feel and it totally sucks.

    PS- There is nothing more addicting than klonopin you need to get off of that as soon as possible.

  24. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nashtide View Post
    I'm switching to daily injections starting today. My current protocol is 50mg T cyp E3.5D. 0.30 adex at time of injections. 250iu of Hcg Monday and Friday. My goal is to lower my total T dose to 70mg per week in hopes of being able to drop the adex altogether. I'm not going to change Hcg protocol. I'll run labs in four weeks and monitor any high E2 symptoms.
    It sounds like if I want to do daily then i should go to 15mg daily and try 100iu of hcg daily too since that's the same as 200iu every other day. Or I could stick with 200iu EOD and do test daily. It just makes sense for me to try to do everything daily if possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Carter View Post
    Given that E is such a personal thing I went to EOD and then to daily and it never changed the large amount of aromatase that I have going on and still require anastrozole. The point here is that when you get to 70mg +/- you're well below what anyone would consider a basic starting weekly (cumulative) dose of 100mg. To a point its chasing your tail if you get a Total trough of 500 just to control E then there's absolutely a point of diminishing returns. One point of caution is that there's absolutely no linear value to any of this, anywhere. It's a totally individualistic journey if you will. because one guy says he controls E with X dose, it's extremely unlikely that that will work of be of any therapeutic value for you.
    I've only ever had to use .2mg of anastrozole and that's when I wasn't taking DIM so maybe daily will work for me. What do you think my daily regimen should look like? Should I mimic what my EOD was and do 20mg of test ED or even lower it to 15mg and do 100iu of hcg or lower it to 50iu?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    I know this thread is getting pretty long and this is off the subject. Has anybody talk to you about your lipid panel, it looks terrible. Makes me wonder if coronary artery disease runs in your family.
    Hey they have talked to me but won't put me on any meds for it. On some of these tests I didn't fast. My numbers looked a bit better when I did a 12 hour fast. I still think I should be put on something for cholesterol. I currently just take the over the counter stuff like red yeast rice and cholestoff. What do you think? I can post my fasting one. It probably just runs in the family. I eat pretty healthy and when I'm feeling good I'm in the gym. I'm 6'4" 235 right now. Mainly eat ground turkey, chicken, eggs, brown rice, quinoa, etc. When I eat out it's usually chick fila or chipotle. Also since you do daily, what's your take on my regimen for daily for hcg and test? Do you always do shallow intramuscular and where do you inject? I am changing to injecting test back into muscle shallow and I was going to do my hcg sub q because isn't it better sub q? I'm following your journey in the other thread and it is fantastic. My goal with dailies is to also make it so I don't have to inject so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by FeelingLost View Post
    Hi Storm, If understand your original question it is. Will daily T injections fix my anxiety/panic attacks? IF so, how much should I inject?

    I turned to TRT just over a year ago because of depression/anxiety/panic attacks. I was taking BusPar 15mg/day and also had lorazipam for emergencies.

    My TT before TRT was 173. When my TT hit 350 most of my anxiety was resolved.
    My TT ebbed and flowed between 350 and 630. I was able to get off my anxiety meds.
    I also did major diet changes(no more fast food, no bread no processed sugar) and joined a gym. I lost 30# and my triglycerides dropped to double digits

    Reading your last blood tests it does not look like your male harmones are the reasons you have anxiety.
    Your numbers look too good. You need to start looking else where for the cause of your anxiety. I don't think going from EOD to daily is going to do anything for your mental state.

    Best of luck. I know how you feel and it totally sucks.

    PS- There is nothing more addicting than klonopin you need to get off of that as soon as possible.
    Thanks for your reply. I've done everything from salvia cortisol tests, ultrasound on my balls that found a slight varicolie but it was the same blood flow as other testicle so doc said that was fine. I did a sleep study that showed I have mild sleep apeana because I have a slight deviated septum but again it's right on the mild line. I think TRT did help my anxiety because I've been off of lexapro for over a year and i still would panic but it would subside. I just recently got put back on lexapro and stopped. It made things worse so this has to be hormone related. I also was off clonopin for over a year as well. I think I just need to get dialed in so I'm really hoping dailies will help. I just don't know what dose to do and what to do about HCG since I'm used to doing that EOD too.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated everyone! Thanks

  25. #24
    I completely missed that you were on Klonopin, I spent a year withdrawing off of it after 30 years and is the reason I'm on TRT. I never recovered. Whenever you start, then stop a medication like that you will go through withdrawal. Changing protocols won't fix your anxiety as much as you wish it would, it won't because of withdrawal.

    These medications wreck your hormones and make it seem like TRT isn't working, these are mind altering drugs that you must periodically increase from them to remain effective. You ask what good is it to shoot for the 400's ranges but you don't realise elevated E2 can cause anxiety, you want high T and high E2 with anxiety or do you want to feel good? Any chance you can get ahold of an AI from your doctor?

  26. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systemlord View Post
    I completely missed that you were on Klonopin, I spent a year withdrawing off of it after 30 years and is the reason I'm on TRT. I never recovered. Whenever you start, then stop a medication like that you will go through withdrawal. Changing protocols won't fix your anxiety as much as you wish it would, it won't because of withdrawal.

    These medications wreck your hormones and make it seem like TRT isn't working, these are mind altering drugs that you must periodically increase from them to remain effective. You ask what good is it to shoot for the 400's ranges but you don't realise elevated E2 can cause anxiety, you want high T and high E2 with anxiety or do you want to feel good? Any chance you can get ahold of an AI from your doctor?
    Hey I'm on klonopon currently taking 1mg 2x per day. I have an AI from my doctor and I only have to do .2mg of it to get me back in the high 20s or low 30s on the sensitive estrogen test. If I take DIM 200mg daily and I'm sure if I start taking that calcium supp then I wouldn't even need an AI.

    Currently I'm just trying to find out what daily protocol to try. It seems easiest if i did HCG and test daily but I know the half life on HCG is around 33 to 36 hours so that might make estrogen worse potentially if I did HCG daily

    What is everyone else doing for HCG on daily protocols for dosing, injection site, and ed, EOD, e3d, or e3.5 days. The 3.5 days would be very hard to track. Should i do hcg daily with test, EOD, or 2x a week like Monday and Friday? And at what dose? I was doing 200iu EOD with that labeork. So that's what I thought 100iu would be good daily or I could do 400iu or 500iu 2x a week or 250iu twice a week? Please help.

  27. #26
    Moderator Vince's Avatar
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    The current protocol that I'm on, I inject testosterone cypionate 16 mg every day, 500 IU of HCG every three and a half days and no AI. I do a circular rotation shoulders and ventorgluteal, I use a 29g 1/2 in syringe for shallow IM. My main reason to going to daily was to lower my HCT which it did, I haven't had to donate blood for almost 1 year now.
    I am not a medical practitioner. Any suggestions I provide are not medical recommendations and are just my opinions. Please consult with your physician on any matters concerning your health.

  28. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    The current protocol that I'm on, I inject testosterone cypionate 16 mg every day, 500 IU of HCG every three and a half days and no AI. I do a circular rotation shoulders and ventorgluteal, I use a 29g 1/2 in syringe for shallow IM. My main reason to going to daily was to lower my HCT which it did, I haven't had to donate blood for almost 1 year now.
    Hey Vince I definitely want to do 16mg daily of test cyp. That's. 08 on the syringe. My goal is to get my hematocrit down too and not have to donate. I also use a 29 .5 inch needle. Why is your HCG so high ? I've been averaging 600 to 800iu a week on the EOD schedule at 200iu. Any reason you don't do daily hcg at smaller doses? I've read that smaller doses daily is better for anxiety which is why I was going to try something like 50 to 100iu daily with the 16mg of test cyp. Where do you inject your hcg? Do you do the Nelson method? What's ventoglutal injection site? Any reason why you don't pin your upper outer thigh? Sorry for all of the questions. There was another guy who did only 50 to 100iu of hcg daily because he had a bad sense of well being like me and anxiety and felt like he was going to die and daily HCG fixed it and he had a kid and good fertility on it. Thanks

  29. #28
    Moderator Vince's Avatar
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    Best Injection site, no aspiration needed, avoids all nerves
    https://www.excelmale.com/showthread...ids-all-nerves
    I like the higher dose of HCG, I've been injecting 500 IU of HCG twice a week now for over 3 years. I've never felt any anxiety from injecting T or HCG. I did try injecting in my thighs for a short time but did not like injecting there. I inject HCG and testosterone separately in the same type of syringe 29g 1/2", both shallow IM. I just follow my rotation in a circle. I make nine separate injections a week.
    I am not a medical practitioner. Any suggestions I provide are not medical recommendations and are just my opinions. Please consult with your physician on any matters concerning your health.

  30. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    Best Injection site, no aspiration needed, avoids all nerves
    https://www.excelmale.com/showthread...ids-all-nerves
    I like the higher dose of HCG, I've been injecting 500 IU of HCG twice a week now for over 3 years. I've never felt any anxiety from injecting T or HCG. I did try injecting in my thighs for a short time but did not like injecting there. I inject HCG and testosterone separately in the same type of syringe 29g 1/2", both shallow IM. I just follow my rotation in a circle. I make nine separate injections a week.
    Thank you for this I always thought HCG should be sub q. So I take it you don't pinch the skin for the HCG either then? I didn't know I didn't have to aspirate that's awesome! I've always been afraid of hitting a vein or artery. Finally, what does your schedule look like for hcg then? I don't get the whole 3.5 day thing. I would rather do it when I'm not at work and in the mornings. Please breakdown what the schedule would look like for me. I just injected test 16mg today when I woke up. So when do I need to do the hcg injections ? Also since hcg only has a shelf life of 30 days when reconstituted in the fridge and most vials are 11000iu do you freeze any syringes with hcg? Thanks again for your expertise

  31. #30
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    Guys I started the protocol today with 16mg of test and 100iu of hcg. I'm just going to do it daily since it is easier for me to remember and according to Crisler he said the best protocol in his opinion is to do a t gel and hcg daily. I'm not doing a t gel but this should be just as good if not better I'm assuming. I will keep you guys updated.

    I'm really interested in knowing about the HCG shelf life though. I know that it diminishes in potency after 30 days in the fridge and most of us use the 1100iu vial a lot longer than that. So should we be freezing needles of hcg and then thawing them out? I've read about that and thought that would make the most sense.

    Also, if it is best to do HCG shallow IM versus sub q in my stomach, should I just inject for instance my shoulder with test and then choose another spot on that same shoulder right after and inject the HCG? I don't feel too comfortable with Nelson's method and if I freeze the HCG needles and thaw them out that wouldn't work anyways. I just want to be as consistent with this as possible. I'm going to do this protocol for 5-6 weeks and then get labs, but I just need help with this little stuff.

    Finally, can someone look at my DHEA levels and see if I need to be doing DHEA every day like most as well? If I'm reading it right it looks like in August I had a DHEA-Sulfate test and it was 216 on a 138.5 to 475.2 scale. Thoughts?

    Thanks again so much guys for all of the GREAT help!! I love this forum!!!

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