I took a peek at my Labs

Vince · Dec 3, 2017

lexer said:
Vince
thats too high. I read an interesting study to where those getting T replacement and staying within mid to upper mid range resulted in lower LDL cholesterol and slightly higher HDL.
when levels went to top of range and above the reference range, LDL levels increases and HDL decreased. When your levels are that high, you are basically doing a steroid cycle. High T levels also damage the lining of your artery walls which makes arteries less flexible as well as increase red blood cells that thicken your blood. Its a bad idea.
of course people feel good when T levels are through the roof, however, its a slippery slope.
finally, like a steroid cycle, HIGH T levels will increase the size of your heart.

Vince · Dec 3, 2017

madman said:
You were injecting 22mg daily for 6 weeks on your previous protocol than reduced your dose by only 2mg/day to 20mg daily and are posting over the range numbers. Simple solution you like daily so just lower your dose further 16mg daily? Even than I would still take VC advice and retest to be sure of your labs being accurate before adjusting protocol.

After my consultation I would think that lowering my does to 16mg daily would probably be their recommendation. Anyways after thinking about it yesterday that was my thought.

Vince · Dec 3, 2017

madman said:
Sure ones levels could be 1501 or 1700 and you are right that there is not strong evidence in the literature to support that having ones TT 20-30% above range causing health issues other than possibly negatively affecting lipids (decrease hdl/increase ldl), elevated hematocrit (which can be managed with donating blood), excess estradiol (which can be controlled with a.i) but excess testosterone levels above the physiological range are not needed for one to experience improvements in low t symptoms. Trt is just that testosterone replacement therapy designed to replace a males levels into the normal physiological range in order to treat low t symptoms and improve ones physical/mental well being whether that is attaining mid-normal or high/normal physiological testosterone levels not supra-physiological levels. Sure some may argue that they have more energy/better mood when raising levels into the supra-physiological range and I have no issue with that but if one claims to need to be over the top end of the physiological levels to experience benefits from having low t than I would argue that they should be looking into thyroid/adrenal/diet/sleep/stress related factors and not testosterone as supra-physiological levels are in no way needed to experience symptom improvement/relief of low t symptoms (the literature states this). Of course when one is injecting less frequently (once weekly or once every 2 weeks) with larger doses they will experience a supra-physiological peak the first few days after injection but their test levels will not remain in the supra-physiological range. Vinces levels are >1500 and he is injecting daily so his peaks/troughs are minimal hence his overall daily levels are over the top end of the range and those high levels are not needed. He felt great which he raved about on his older protocol of injecting every 3.5 days posting 1000+ trough. As far as I am concerned having ones levels in the supra-physiological range steady state in no way now how relates to trt replacement doses regardless of whether ones health markers are good and in range.The only truly main benefit of having excess testosterone levels is increasing ones muscle mass/strength period!

One thing that I'm amazed about is my HCT has been in a good range, I've had it checked a numbers of times because I stopped donating blood. Also a good lipid panel.

Henry · Dec 3, 2017

If he's feeling great and his blood work comes back good, my question is, why change it?

If someone had low T and no symptoms, he would be told to leave it alone and not get on TRT so why does the reverse not apply? If he has high levels, and no symptoms, why not leave it alone?

I'v been running around 1300's for the past couple of years on Androgel. My blood work comes back very well, I feel great, I don't have to donate or take AI's and my cardiologist says my heart is great. I don't see a reason for changing it. No prostate issues, no lipid issues, no HCT/HGB issues, I see my cardiologist once a year and he does the heart thing and I have no problems. Now, I will admit that I don't feel a difference from 600-800-900-1100-1300-1400 because I've tried all those levels, but I don't see why Vince should lower it if he's feel great just to fall under some numbers from a lab.

Let's remember those numbers, just a few months ago, were close to 1200 at the max. Now, they've been dropped to 900. I've seen some labs go as high as 700-800. Also, those same numbers are the ones that tell us all that low 200's is ok and you don't need TRT if you're 250 but we all feel different about that. Why would we ignore 250 but freak out at someone running 1300-1400?

Vince · Dec 3, 2017

Henry said:
If he's feeling great and his blood work comes back good, my question is, why change it?

If someone had low T and no symptoms, he would be told to leave it alone and not get on TRT so why does the reverse not apply? If he has high levels, and no symptoms, why not leave it alone?

I'v been running around 1300's for the past couple of years on Androgel. My blood work comes back very well, I feel great, I don't have to donate or take AI's and my cardiologist says my heart is great. I don't see a reason for changing it. No prostate issues, no lipid issues, no HCT/HGB issues, I see my cardiologist once a year and he does the heart thing and I have no problems. Now, I will admit that I don't feel a difference from 600-800-900-1100-1300-1400 because I've tried all those levels, but I don't see why Vince should lower it if he's feel great just to fall under some numbers from a lab.

Let's remember those numbers, just a few months ago, were close to 1200 at the max. Now, they've been dropped to 900. I've seen some labs go as high as 700-800. Also, those same numbers are the ones that tell us all that low 200's is ok and you don't need TRT if you're 250 but we all feel different about that. Why would we ignore 250 but freak out at someone running 1300-1400?

Henry thanks for your reply, like we always say don't chase numbers. This morning I injected 18mg of T cyp, I would like to try using 18mg for a time and have some labs in 12 weeks. But it's not up to me, I won't go against my doctor orders.

HealthMan · Dec 3, 2017

The only weird thing about all this is that this is not your first bloodwork on daily injections. You TT pretty much doubled from the first bloodwork to this one on a lower dosage right? I had some weird stuff going on as well while on this TRt jorney but not to this degree. Maybe something related to the big increase in SHBG

Vince · Dec 3, 2017

HealthMan said:
The only weird thing about all this is that this is not your first bloodwork on daily injections. You TT pretty much doubled from the first bloodwork to this one on a lower dosage right? I had some weird stuff going on as well while on this TRt jorney but not to this degree. Maybe something related to the big increase in SHBG

My labs when I first started daily injections of T, my thoughts are. I didn't give my protocol enough time for my levels to stabilize.

HealthMan · Dec 3, 2017

Vince said:
My labs when I first started daily injections of T, my thoughts are. I didn't give my protocol enough time for my levels to stabilize.

Vince
How many weeks on daily injections before first bloodwork? Amazing the spike in SHBG. Would love to hear your doctor thoughts on this. Again thanks for sharing your results with us!
I have recently switched to daily injections so looking forward for my next labs

Vince · Dec 3, 2017

HealthMan said:
Vince
How many weeks on daily injections before first bloodwork? Amazing the spike in SHBG. Would love to hear your doctor thoughts on this. Again thanks for sharing your results with us!
I have recently switched to daily injections so looking forward for my next labs

I was injecting 22mg of T cyp daily 500iu of HCG every 3 1/2 days and 50mg of dhea daily. I never used an AI and still never have. I followed that protocol for 6 weeks .

HealthMan · Dec 3, 2017

Your FT is pretty much the same in both bloodworks. Amazing. Looks like your body is fighting to keep things leveled out by increasing SHBG. At this point it looks like the additional T is just being wasted and you could reduce your dosage and achieve similar FT levels

lexer · Dec 3, 2017

Vince
are you using a statin ??? Did you ever? Those numbers are extremely low, not just low.
are you using finasteride? The fact that your Free T and Total T are so high and your DHT is barely mid range is extremely rare....how old are you and are you bald?
regarding high dosages, your heart can still get enlarged ( left ventrical) and that woukdnt be reflected in a lipod panel. The lining of the arteries can also stiffen. Your blood can still thicken. Its just not a good idea. You can eat a bag of candy every day and still have a good lipid profile until one day you dont.

FeelingLost · Dec 3, 2017

ratbag said:
Are these the first labs since you switched to daily dosing? It appears that everyone who tries daily dosing has the same results... meaning that the TT and FT increase substantially compared to their previous protocol. I think it's because your labs are taken only 24 hrs from your last shot and this skews the results comparatively.

I agree there is no trough anymore when you shoot daily. No more 500ng/dL swings.

madman · Dec 3, 2017

Henry said:
If he's feeling great and his blood work comes back good, my question is, why change it?

If someone had low T and no symptoms, he would be told to leave it alone and not get on TRT so why does the reverse not apply? If he has high levels, and no symptoms, why not leave it alone?

I'v been running around 1300's for the past couple of years on Androgel. My blood work comes back very well, I feel great, I don't have to donate or take AI's and my cardiologist says my heart is great. I don't see a reason for changing it. No prostate issues, no lipid issues, no HCT/HGB issues, I see my cardiologist once a year and he does the heart thing and I have no problems. Now, I will admit that I don't feel a difference from 600-800-900-1100-1300-1400 because I've tried all those levels, but I don't see why Vince should lower it if he's feel great just to fall under some numbers from a lab.

Let's remember those numbers, just a few months ago, were close to 1200 at the max. Now, they've been dropped to 900. I've seen some labs go as high as 700-800. Also, those same numbers are the ones that tell us all that low 200's is ok and you don't need TRT if you're 250 but we all feel different about that. Why would we ignore 250 but freak out at someone running 1300-1400?

No ones freaking out. If you have followed his previous posts he felt amazing at a 1000 trough, there is absolutely no need for excess levels especially 1500+ regardless if his blood work is good. No one needs to have trough levels well into the supra-physiological range to experience relief from low t symptoms. If anything many men may feel better and notice greater improvements running a trough in the high/normal physiological range. If one thinks they need trough to be in an excess range to benefit than testosterone level is not the issue and there are other underlying factors causing some one to feel unwell- thyroid/adrenals/poor diet/lack sleep/excess bodyfat/health issues. The only purpose to run extremely high supra-physiological levels would be if one were looking to increase muscle mass/strength whether 2x -10x the upper limit of the physiological range. The higher the supra-physiological levels the more substantial increase in muscle mass/strength up to a certain limit where the negative effects would eventually outweigh the positive effects. As I stated many times before steady state high trough supra-physiological levels of testosterone in no way are needed for the treatment of low t. Study the literature as the threshold for improvement in low t symptoms is not that high as people think. Many men do well having mid/normal physiological levels and others need to be in the high/normal physiological range of course including a healthy free t in both cases.

ratbag · Dec 3, 2017

ratbag said:
My MD was a big believer in TT being way over range and had me there for a long time. But I had read on numerous sites that some feel just as good with TT that is in range with some reporting that they were low in range, yet they felt great. I thought this info was interesting and thought I'd never know until I tried it and I did... I'm now on 35mg Test E3.5D (70mg per week) and 500iu HCG E3.5D and my TT is 700 with FT being at the very top of range and I feel as good as I did on a much larger dose. I know this doesn't work for everyone but I'm glad I tried it. It brought down my HCT and the other benefit is my labs now show in range and when other MD's see them they don't realise I'm on TRT.

Edit:... I forgot to add that I'm diabetic Type 2 and my HB-A1C was 5.5 for years when my TT was 1500. I was on 1000mg metformin at the time. They say pre-diabetics starts at about 5.6 - 5.8. I never thought much about it but I had read that the higher the dosing of Testosterone the higher your glucose will become/ Just go read what bodybuilders do... they take insulin injections because they take huge doses of testosterone. Long story short is when I worked my dosage down to 35mg E3.5D my next set of labs showed my A1C to be 5.0 That was a huge improvement and another reason I'll stick with my current protocol.

Forty2 · Dec 3, 2017

ratbag said:
My MD was a big believer in TT being way over range and had me there for a long time. But I had read on numerous sites that some feel just as good with TT that is in range with some reporting that they were low in range, yet they felt great. I thought this info was interesting and thought I'd never know until I tried it and I did... I'm now on 35mg Test E3.5D (70mg per week) and 500iu HCG E3.5D and my TT is 700 with FT being at the very top of range and I feel as good as I did on a much larger dose. I know this doesn't work for everyone but I'm glad I tried it. It brought down my HCT and the other benefit is my labs now show in range and when other MD's see them they don't realise I'm on TRT.

ratbag, are you taking an AI or Nolvadex? Have you ever had sensitive nipples from the 500iu dose of hCG?

ratbag · Dec 3, 2017

Forty2 said:
ratbag, are you taking an AI or Nolvadex? Have you ever had sensitive nipples from the 500iu dose of hCG?

I've been off AI's for a while now. Originally before TRT I had very high E2, sore nipples and suffered from gynomestia (however that is spelled) and when I started TRT I was on 1mg daily for quite a few years and it worked fine. Then as time marched on I was put on DHEA and progesterone and HCG and somehow with all of that my E2 started to crash and get too low so I reduced all the way down to .125mg daily until I finally stopped and I'm now fine without any AI at all. So somehow getting the rest of my hormones balanced helped me in this regard. I'm just not sure what the mechanism was.

Vince · Dec 4, 2017

HealthMan said:
Your FT is pretty much the same in both bloodworks. Amazing. Looks like your body is fighting to keep things leveled out by increasing SHBG. At this point it looks like the additional T is just being wasted and you could reduce your dosage and achieve similar FT levels

Yes that's something I also noticed, the way you stated it makes sense.

Vince · Dec 4, 2017

lexer said:
Vince
are you using a statin ??? Did you ever? Those numbers are extremely low, not just low.
are you using finasteride? The fact that your Free T and Total T are so high and your DHT is barely mid range is extremely rare....how old are you and are you bald?
regarding high dosages, your heart can still get enlarged ( left ventrical) and that woukdnt be reflected in a lipod panel. The lining of the arteries can also stiffen. Your blood can still thicken. Its just not a good idea. You can eat a bag of candy every day and still have a good lipid profile until one day you dont.

I've never used finasteride and yes I'm bald. I've been slowly losing my head hair since puberty and growing it in other places.

I have used minimal statin, presently Vytorin , I get the smallest tab available and cut it in quarter size. Heart disease is big in my family, both of my parents are alive after suffering heart attacks years ago. I'm 63 both of my parents will be 85 the beginning of next year, my oldest sister also suffered an heart attack.

Vince · Dec 4, 2017

FeelingLost said:
I agree there is no trough anymore when you shoot daily. No more 500ng/dL swings.

Having nice steady levels of testosterone, I believe really helps in keeping my other levels stay good.

Vince · Dec 4, 2017

madman said:
No ones freaking out. If you have followed his previous posts he felt amazing at a 1000 trough, there is absolutely no need for excess levels especially 1500+ regardless if his blood work is good. No one needs to have their levels in the supra-physiological range to experience relief from low t symptoms. If anything many men may feel better and notice greater improvements running in the high/normal physiological range. If one thinks they need to be in an excess range to benefit than testosterone level is not the issue and there are other underlying factors causing some one to feel unwell- thyroid/adrenals/poor diet/lack sleep/excess bodyfat/health issues. The only purpose to run supra-physiological levels would be if one were looking to increase muscle mass/strength whether 2x -10x the upper limit of the physiological range. The higher the supra-physiological levels the more substantial increase in muscle mass/strength up to a certain limit where the negative effects would eventually outweigh the positive effects. As I stated many times before steady state supra-physiological levels of testosterone in no way are needed for the treatment of low t. Study the literature as the threshold for improvement in low t symptoms is not that high as people think. Many men do well having mid/normal physiological levels and others need to be in the high/normal physiological range of course including a healthy free t in both cases.

The one thing I really like with higher levels of T. When I'm physically tired I can still mentally not be tried. I can think clear headed.

I took a peek at my Labs

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