I accidentally took too much Arimidex...did I screw myself!?

nurselyfe · Oct 14, 2017

Vitamin_C said:
But theoretically, E2 would pool and increase with each shot because it is not being absorbed by the receptor, that is why the congenital estrogen insufficiency patients all had very high E2. Also, estrogen increases SHBG, so if estrogen is not working on the cells you would see very low SHBG https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10439005

Also, I went through nursing school, I know how daunting it is, I am in school for my DNP currently. If you are surviving nursing school, you are doing fine man. I'm not saying you aren't struggling, but anxiety can manifest some nasty physical and mental symptoms.

E2 would not pool. Unless your liver didn't work. E2 has a half life of 12-15 hours. Before my issue, nursing school was a breeze. Now it's so difficult because I have no drive and focus.

Please do pay attention to what I say about myself before this issue. I never had anxiety and depression. I never had ANY of these physical symptoms when there's over 12 different symptoms. All started when I crashed my E2 to zero.

Im telling you, 5 months ago if someone told me what I'm telling you i'd say the same thing as you are. It's psychological. It is CLEARLY not. I'm having serious issues that are directly related to crashed E2 from months ago.

Vitamin_C · Oct 14, 2017

If you can get the anxiety down, other symptoms will improve. You can 100% figure out if you have this by working with an endo and taking large amounts of estrogen and see if it produces the negative effects on the male body. You can be the first person in medical literature that this happened to.

Do you have a diagnosis showing you have muscle wasting? any bone health labs done showing problems?

at15 · Oct 14, 2017

ok, nurselyfe let me ask you, what happened with the gym strength. Say before all this happened you were benching 185 for 10 reps and now what you would do with the same weight.

nurselyfe · Oct 14, 2017

Vitamin_C said:
If you can get the anxiety down, other symptoms will improve. You can 100% figure out if you have this by working with an endo and taking large amounts of estrogen and see if it produces the negative effects on the male body. You can be the first person in medical literature that this happened to.

Do you have a diagnosis showing you have muscle wasting? any bone health labs done showing problems?

I will absolutely not take pure estradiol because anything that raises my estrogen or that interacts with my estrogen receptors makes me permanently worse.

Getting anxiety down will only help me function. It does nothing for physical symptoms. And no this hapoened relatively recently but I'm going to inquire about all of this during my next endo appointment.

I will get this in the literature. I had a beautiful life before this, a lot of friends, great grades, a positive attitude about everything, supportive family, beautiful girlfriend, a stellar physique. I ruined all of that for myself and I'm determined to get it all back because I genuinely enjoy life and what is has to offer. I don't believe my good days end here at 24.

As for my stregnth, before this, I could progress every week as long as I ate my meals, slept, and didn't drink. I was benching 235 for 5-6 sets of 10 and getting an outrageous pump. Now I struggle with 225 for sets of 6 and there's no muscle contraction or pump. I feel extremely flat and not vascular. And I can't progress at all I've only gotten weaker. I used to squat 315 for sets of 15, now I can barely do 1. Lost a ton of strength on almost every compound exercise. You can rule out diet, sleep, and knowledge deficit on training. Diet has not changed, sleep is great, and I used to compete so I can confidently say I know what i'm doing training wise.

Vitamin_C · Oct 14, 2017

//I will absolutely not take pure estradiol because anything that raises my estrogen or that interacts with my estrogen receptors makes me permanently worse. //

If you already believe you have no estrogen sensitivity, how could it be worse? that is implying you have some still.

I'd be interested in hearing back what your endo said, let us know if you have muscle wasting or any other bone abnormalities like the congenital people with EIS.

nurselyfe · Oct 14, 2017

Vitamin_C said:
//I will absolutely not take pure estradiol because anything that raises my estrogen or that interacts with my estrogen receptors makes me permanently worse. //

If you already believe you have no estrogen sensitivity, how could it be worse? that is implying you have some still.

I'd be interested in hearing back what your endo said, let us know if you have muscle wasting or any other abnormalities like the congenital people with EIS.

Im pretty much down to the wire with how sensitive I am to estrogen. Before the clomid and nolva I probably had 15-25% left. Now I feel as if I'm at 5%, I don't want to chance anything as I've seen anytime E2 rises I get worse. LowE2sucks will say the same exact thing.

The only good news I have is that I believe this is curable. It's not a congenital genetic mutation. It's an epigenetic change; altered gene expression if you will. I think my only hope is coadministration of DMNT and HDAC inhibitors

Vitamin_C · Oct 14, 2017

I thought low E2 made your more vascular and shed water? You say you're not vascular anymore and you are holding water right? Bodybuilders crash their E2 to look dry and vascular during contest.

// I think my only hope is coadministration of DMNT and HDAC inhibitors//

Interesting, i'd be interested in hearing your theory behind this, how is this administered and for what?

nurselyfe · Oct 14, 2017

Vitamin_C said:
I thought low E2 made your more vascular and shed water? You say you're not vascular anymore and you are holding water right? Bodybuilders crash their E2 to look dry and vascular during contest.

// I think my only hope is coadministration of DMNT and HDAC inhibitors//

Interesting, i'd be interested in hearing your theory behind this, how is this administered and for what?

Yes Vitamin C you're catching on. Let me tell you typical low E2 symtoms and high.

Low: dehydrated, no water retention, no nipple puffiness, not too vascular unless I get my HR up, get cold easily, painful joints, dry skin, dry scalp, dry mouth, anxiety, rock hard erections, morning erections, flat muscles, very difficult to get a pump, strength is down, okay libido

high: water retention, puffy nips, great libido, great erections, full muscles, but difficult to get a pump (except for legs for some odd reason), strength is good, lubricated joints, calmness, easy to cry though

Now, i have all low e2 symptoms, except I have water retention. This is what caused me to keep my E2 crashed for long periods of time. I thought I had high E2 because I was bloated and wasn't getting pumps. I've never ever been bloated with low e2. So I kept taking more and more arimidex.

Regards to the two drugs I mentioned that are for cancer, I don't know what doctor is going to put his or her license on the line and administer them to me. Ill gladly explain my theory on what happened on the molecular level to me and why I think these drugs may be my only hope. But first Im spending the day with my girl and her family, I don't want to quickly write this up so I'll write a comprehensive step by step mechanism of how this happened, what DMNT & HDAC inhibitors will do, and studies to back it up.

ps what type DNP program are you enrolled in? Currently considering anesthesia.

Vitamin_C · Oct 14, 2017

I am at the University of Arizona's DNP program for family nurse practitioner. I want to specialize in HRT.

lowe2sucks · Oct 18, 2017

Vitamin_C said:
I thought low E2 made your more vascular and shed water? You say you're not vascular anymore and you are holding water right? Bodybuilders crash their E2 to look dry and vascular during contest.

// I think my only hope is coadministration of DMNT and HDAC inhibitors//

Interesting, i'd be interested in hearing your theory behind this, how is this administered and for what?

it's when e2 is very low but not crashed.. when it's absolutely crashed you loose all the water, you are not vascular anymore because your veins dissapear and basically you slowly turn in to 100 year old lady. your skin becomes dry, your hair becomes very dry, you are thristy as **** and constantly pissing out sodium and minerals making it impossible to rehydrate, testosterone isn't doing shit anymore because e2 is needed for testosterone to work so basically you feel hypogonadal even with normal androgen levels, lethargy, apathy, no joy in life and so on.. I had exact same thing as nurselyfe is going through right now. every time e2 goes up you have more and more low e2 symptoms for some reason.. It's like your e2 receptors don't react to e2 anymore.. the bad thing is there is no cure for this.. this is very similar as post finasteride syndrome but instead of insensitivity to dht it's insensitivty to e2.. people who had crashed e2 levles know how miserable they felt during that time but most normally recover but this situation is different.. you are not recovering but keep getting worse and more low e2 symptoms.. I have no idea if it's gonna get any better or no.Worst thing is nobody re****nizes this condition. 3 years post that crash I am still no better.. I don't even know if I ever will recover from this misery.. I also felt like I went backwards when I tried pregnenolone oral/cream.. Then I learned pregnenolone is also an aromatase inhibitor (https://raypeatforum.com/community/...d-androsterone-are-aromatase-inhibitors.3596/)..

Vitamin_C · Oct 18, 2017

Do you have labs to indicate you have electrolyte imbalances? DEXA scan to show bone loss or any other lab to show muscle wasting? Do you have labs showing elevated lipids and cholesterol? Elevated prolactin? High CRP? High BP? What do your labs look like pertaining to cortisol and thyroid? Don't just say "they are good".....I'd like to see some actual numbers if you could upload them to the site I'd appreciate it. As a researcher and future practitioner, I am fascinated by these claims but I just see a severe lack of evidence for it. There are women on 1mg of Arimidex a day for sometimes up to 7-10 years, thousands and thousands of women and there is absolutely no data they become insensitive to estrogen via Arimidex. Estrogen is needed for a wide variety of physiological processes in men, from keeping cholesterol in check, prolactin/dopamine etc. I would like to see if you had any lab abnormalities. Like I told nurselyfe, have your endo script you estrogen patches and if you have no high E2 symptoms you can be the first case of this happening in medical history. I am still not understanding the mechanism behind less vascularity and holding water with minuscule amounts of estrogen. Are you having libido/erection problems? Can you show pharmacologically that Arimidex can successfully knock out genes causing receptors to be insensitive? Pharmacology of Arimidex is very well known, there is absolutely NOTHING in literature that shows this medication can do this even at extremely high breast cancer dosages with extremely long durations. If any med could theorhetically do this, and its a lousy theory, wouldn't it be Nolvadex that actually has play with the receptor itself?

If Arimidex could cause estrogen receptor knockout, scientists would not have to use the knockout method aka genetically modified mice DNA to cause successful generations of estrogen insensitivity, they could just feed the mice arimidex, problem is nothing in literature shows Arimidex does this, that is why they don't.

nurselyfe · Oct 19, 2017

lowe2sucks said:
it's when e2 is very low but not crashed.. when it's absolutely crashed you loose all the water, you are not vascular anymore because your veins dissapear and basically you slowly turn in to 100 year old lady. your skin becomes dry, your hair becomes very dry, you are thristy as **** and constantly pissing out sodium and minerals making it impossible to rehydrate, testosterone isn't doing shit anymore because e2 is needed for testosterone to work so basically you feel hypogonadal even with normal androgen levels, lethargy, apathy, no joy in life and so on.. I had exact same thing as nurselyfe is going through right now. every time e2 goes up you have more and more low e2 symptoms for some reason.. It's like your e2 receptors don't react to e2 anymore.. the bad thing is there is no cure for this.. this is very similar as post finasteride syndrome but instead of insensitivity to dht it's insensitivty to e2.. people who had crashed e2 levles know how miserable they felt during that time but most normally recover but this situation is different.. you are not recovering but keep getting worse and more low e2 symptoms.. I have no idea if it's gonna get any better or no.Worst thing is nobody re****nizes this condition. 3 years post that crash I am still no better.. I don't even know if I ever will recover from this misery.. I also felt like I went backwards when I tried pregnenolone oral/cream.. Then I learned pregnenolone is also an aromatase inhibitor (https://raypeatforum.com/community/...d-androsterone-are-aromatase-inhibitors.3596/)..

Im actually constantly hydrated. I'm retaining a shitload of water. My piss hasn't been yellow in 5 months, even if I don't drink water. Preg doesn't lower E2.

nurselyfe · Oct 19, 2017

Vitamin_C said:
Do you have labs to indicate you have electrolyte imbalances? DEXA scan to show bone loss or any other lab to show muscle wasting? Do you have labs showing elevated lipids and cholesterol? Elevated prolactin? High CRP? High BP? What do your labs look like pertaining to cortisol and thyroid? Don't just say "they are good".....I'd like to see some actual numbers if you could upload them to the site I'd appreciate it. As a researcher and future practitioner, I am fascinated by these claims but I just see a severe lack of evidence for it. There are women on 1mg of Arimidex a day for sometimes up to 7-10 years, thousands and thousands of women and there is absolutely no data they become insensitive to estrogen via Arimidex. Estrogen is needed for a wide variety of physiological processes in men, from keeping cholesterol in check, prolactin/dopamine etc. I would like to see if you had any lab abnormalities. Like I told nurselyfe, have your endo script you estrogen patches and if you have no high E2 symptoms you can be the first case of this happening in medical history. I am still not understanding the mechanism behind less vascularity and holding water with minuscule amounts of estrogen. Are you having libido/erection problems? Can you show pharmacologically that Arimidex can successfully knock out genes causing receptors to be insensitive? Pharmacology of Arimidex is very well known, there is absolutely NOTHING in literature that shows this medication can do this even at extremely high breast cancer dosages with extremely long durations. If any med could theorhetically do this, and its a lousy theory, wouldn't it be Nolvadex that actually has play with the receptor itself?

If Arimidex could cause estrogen receptor knockout, scientists would not have to use the knockout method aka genetically modified mice DNA to cause successful generations of estrogen insensitivity, they could just feed the mice arimidex, problem is nothing in literature shows Arimidex does this, that is why they don't.

I have no lab indicating electrolyte imbalances. My CBC w/ diff and CMP looks good (I can say it looks good because I go to school for this and my doctor also said it looks good). Getting lipids done next week, I also have a baseline so we can compare, although I expect lipids to be the same, if not better because i'm not blocking aromatase. My body HAS estrogen.

Why the hell would prolactin be elevated? ER modulates prolactin in a direct relationship, E2 goes up so will
prolactin. Although I have low dopamine symptoms, I am not saying Im not producing dopamine.

My blood pressure went down a lot, used to average about 126/82. One time another nursing student took it and it was 130/86, I remember vividly I was having high e2 symptoms. This was 9 months ago before this issue. Now my BP goes as low as 108/64. Never in my life has it gone that low. I don't see how low E2 would contribute to high BP. It's the opposite.

My thyroid is fine, next week along with my lipids i'm getting Ft4, FT3, Antibodies and TSH done. Also getting aldo and renin. Cortisol was 12.1 at 2:30pm. that's a normal reading at that time.

You can deny it all you want Vit C. There's nothing in the medical literature about Finasteride causing ARKO but according to thousands of men, it does. This is no different. Something was triggered. I personally agree there's no issue with using arimidex for long periods of time, I had GREAT success with it for 3 years. It's when I crushed my E2 to ZERO is when this happened.

Vitamin_C · Oct 19, 2017

Just checking for symptoms of high prolactin. I messaged doctor Brett Osborn, a neuro-surgeon who also specializes in TRT about this and if he's ever seen or heard about it in practice and this is what he had to say

"Nope. More garbage. And we don't “see” anything with DHT/finasteride either GIVEN TIME, typically. It's a receptor-mediated phenomenon. This is WHY I never go on those forums. They're filled with anecdotes and locker-room style medicine that promulgated by individuals who not only have no pedigree, but have never seen a patient nor written a prescription. Receptors recover.."

Why haven't we seen EIS induced by Arimidex in the countless of thousands and thousands of women who take 1mg of Arimidex per day for 7-10 years? Many of these women are <5 for years upon years. There is nothing outside of anecdotal accounts that this happens and in the realm of medicine and research it simply cannot be substantiated.

nurselyfe · Oct 19, 2017

Also neither of us are putting more E2 in our bodies, when both of us show clear signs of further desensitization when E2 goes up. Not making myself worse to prove a point to you, my doctor, or the medical community when there's no cure. If there was a known cure, then sure. Id really like for someone to explain all of my symptoms that have occurred EXACTLY when this all happened. It's a complete difference than who I was before all of this. Ill go as far as providing pictures.

Vitamin_C · Oct 19, 2017

What is the mechanism behind "becoming" worse when your E2 raises? Pharmacodynamically, what is the mechanism behind Armidex causing the estrogen receptor to be desensitized? I mean I could see it with Nolvadex with has play on the receptor, and thats even a stretch, but dude we have THOUSANDS of women who have taken 20,000+ mg of Arimidex and nothing in the literature of desensitization of the receptor. I'm not saying you aren't having issues, but I do not believe its caused by the Arimidex.

The only way you can find out is see if an Endo will consider your case for a case study but you won't let them bump up your estrogen so you couldn't extrapolate any empirical data for your claims other than anecdotes.

nurselyfe · Oct 19, 2017

Vitamin_C said:
Just checking for symptoms of high prolactin. I messaged doctor Brett Osborn, a neuro-surgeon who also specializes in TRT about this and if he's ever seen or heard about it in practice and this is what he had to say

"Nope. More garbage. And we don’t “see” anything with DHT/finasteride either GIVEN TIME, typically. It’s a receptor-mediated phenomenon. This is WHY I never go on those forums. They’re filled with anecdotes and locker-room style medicine that promulgated by individuals who not only have no pedigree, but have never seen a patient nor written a prescription. Receptors recover.."

Why haven't we seen EIS induced by Arimidex in the countless of thousands and thousands of women who take 1mg of Arimidex per day for 7-10 years? Many of these women are <5 for years upon years. There is nothing outside of anecdotal accounts that this happens and in the realm of medicine and research it simply cannot be substantiated.

Sounds like an arrogant moron just like the first Nueroendo I went to, Dr John Ausiello. Tried telling me I had some kind of mental illness. I was highly ambitious and always in a good mood. Why wouldn't I be? I'm smart, reasonably good looking, have a lot of friends, pretty funny, and have a bright future. Now I'm depressed for no reason? Yeah right. That guy can shove it up his ass.

There's guys who have not recovered from Propecia sides So I don't know what that man is talking about. Also how do you know these values of these women? Have you seen studies?

Vitamin_C · Oct 19, 2017

Dr. O knows a great deal about receptors being a neurosurgeon and a ton about TRT, dude knows what he is talking about, he's never seen this in practice, I don't think anyone has. Low E2 can cause anxiety, anxiety can perpetuate symptoms and make you believe there is "permanent" damage. Anxiety can also cause depression at times. Many cases of people having anxiety over schizophrenia and feeling like they are getting schizophrenic symptoms when actuality its the anxiety fueling these thoughts.

//Also how do you know these values of these women? Have you seen studies?/

You can learn a lot browsing breast cancer forums, its a very interactive and large community, ZERO stories of estrogen insensitivity being caused by Arimidex despite tons of Arimidex being used.

nurselyfe · Oct 19, 2017

Vitamin_C said:
Dr. O knows a great deal about receptors being a neurosurgeon and a ton about TRT, dude knows what he is talking about, he's never seen this in practice, I don't think anyone has. Low E2 can cause anxiety, anxiety can perpetuate symptoms and make you believe there is "permanent" damage. Anxiety can also cause depression at times. Many cases of people having anxiety over schizophrenia and feeling like they are getting schizophrenic symptoms when actuality its the anxiety fueling these thoughts.

//Also how do you know these values of these women? Have you seen studies?/

You can learn a lot browsing breast cancer forums, its a very interactive and large community, ZERO stories of estrogen insensitivity being caused by Arimidex despite tons of Arimidex being used.

My E2 is not crashed. So I shouldn't have any anxiety.

I have not had anxiety or depression in my entire life. Sure I'd stress a bit when I had like 3 Orgo lab reports to do in a week but I'd get it done then go get a sick pump after.

Listen I have never seen this either. It shouldn't exist. Like I said, I saw lowe2sucks post and I said to myself this guy needs to get blood work and get it figured out that's impossible.

But how are are you gonna explain severe hair loss, severe dry skin, loss of muscle fullness, my veins, pumps, emotional flatness, feeling well being, ED, anxiety, and adverse reactions to clomid and nolva which you have taken before and felt GREAT on. There comes a point where you have to listen to the patient. I never had any of these before, always had oily skin, good mood, no anxiety, never knew what depression was until now, THICK full hair with no familial MPB, muscle fullness, could **** my girlfriend 3 times in a row with no issues. Now all of that has changed at the SAME exact time I crashed my E2 to zero. How are you going to say I have something solely psychological going on when I clearly do not and would've never if I didn't crash my E2. Im a 4.0 student, always played sports, love going out, always been sarcastic, always had aspirations to be successful in healthcare. It just doesn't add up. Just because you're a MD doesn't mean something can't happen if they say it can't. Physicians make mistakes all the time - you should know this.

Vitamin_C · Oct 19, 2017

nurselyfe said:
My E2 is not crashed. So I shouldn't have any anxiety.

I have not had anxiety or depression in my entire life. Sure I'd stress a bit when I had like 3 Orgo lab reports to do in a week but I'd get it done then go get a sick pump after.

Listen I have never seen this either. It shouldn't exist. Like I said, I saw lowe2sucks post and I said to myself this guy needs to get blood work and get it figured out that's impossible.

But how are are you gonna explain severe hair loss, severe dry skin, loss of muscle fullness, my veins, pumps, emotional flatness, feeling well being, ED, anxiety, and adversereactionsto clomidI and nolva which you have taken before and felt GREAT on. There comes a point where you have to listen to the patient. I never had any of these before, always had oily skin, good mood, no anxiety, never knew what depression was until now, THICK full hair with no familial MPB, muscle fullness, could **** my girlfriend 3 times in a row with no issues. Now all of that has changed at the SAME exact time I crashed my E2 to zero. How are you going to say I have something solely psychological going on when I clearly do not and would've never if I didn't crash my E2. Im a 4.0 student, always played sports, love going out, always been sarcastic, always had aspirations to be successful in healthcare. It just doesn't add up. Just because you're a MD doesn't mean something can't happen if they say it can't. Physicians make mistakes all the time - you should know this.

I understand, but to be the first person this has happened to in medical literature would require you to take large doses of ethinylestradiol to see if you respond but you are unwilling to do so. There is also no known pharmacological means in which Arimidex would do this, and this is a VERY studied drug in literature. Also, why would increasing your E2 make your insensitivity symptoms worse? Also, many dudes feel like ass on Clomid, I just heard Dr. Rand McClain mention this.

Do you have any abnormal labs you could post that shows estrogen is not physiologically working in your body? There should be clues in the labwork if E2 is not doing its thing.

I accidentally took too much Arimidex...did I screw myself!?

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