Adjusting Protocol to Mon-Wed-Fri

My current Protocol is Sun-Wed mornings. On these days I am injecting...

70mg Test C Sun-Wed mornings
350ui HCG on Mon-Wed-Fri
.22mg Arimidex on Mon-Wed-Fri

Labs at this Protocol are

SHBG 22.5 range Total T 1051 range
Free T 24.5 range
E2 sensitive 43.8 range

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My Test C script says I am to inject .24ml (48mg) on Mon-Wed-Fri but I have not made this move yet. I do not feel like I need my Test levels to go any higher, and at 144mg weekly, if I follow the 48mg 3 times a week, the Test numbers will rise even more. The reason I would like to make this move, Dr. Crisler new HCG paper that say to inject the HCG one day before the Test C. I figured this would be a good time as any to go a head and start following my prescribed protocol. Would moving my dose to 44mg 3 times a week put me close to the same numbers I am currently at? I have been playing with the Steroid Calc some, but not sure how accurate this is when determining a dose.

I currently feel OK, I do still have fatigue, but this is due to poor sleep and Adrenal Fatigue (low DHEA and Cortisol levels). While I am doing OK Libido is a hit or miss thing. One day I am on fire, the next I have no interest at all. This isnt ED, as I am able to rise up, I just dont feel like doing so. I dont think adjusting protocol will help, I only want to start perfecting my protocol since I have reached a feel good state.

HCG will be moving to Sun-Tue-Thur @ 300ui
Test C Mon-Wed-Fri @ ??mg
AI will still be .22mg the day after T shot, or same day as T shot?

Thanks in advance

I have never taken anastrozole and when I injected twice a week, I injected my T and HCG at the same time.

Vince said:

I have never taken anastrozole and when I injected twice a week, I injected my T and HCG at the same time.

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I tend to aromatase and need it.

I think I will go a bit lighter on the Test C, trying 44mg 3 times a week, rather than the 48 as prescribed. I am already over the Labs "normal" ranges, not that the ranges mean anything.

cleverusername said:

I tend to aromatase and need it.

I think I will go a bit lighter on the Test C, trying 44mg 3 times a week, rather than the 48 as prescribed. I am already over the Labs "normal" ranges, not that the ranges mean anything.

Click to expand...

Personally, I like where your levels are at now, but there's nothing wrong with tweaking your protocol. I do it all the time.

Things are not linear in that 48mg M/W/F is going to take you OVER what youre testing at now, It's almost something entirely new but I do like your thought to cut back just a little bit to start. Watch out for how you feel on Sunday leading up to a Monday injection, this will be the lowest point for T that you'll have all week. When I did it and my SHBG was lower than yours, Id get to a Low T state on Sunday night and feel like crap. EOD shots pretty much fixed that for me as I struggled to get back to my Monday shot.

The point of shooting HCG before your Cyp is to help bridge over to your shot the next day, a little endo Testosterone production but given M/W/F, EOD, or even daily I think the point is moot. I can see guys on E3.5D or (gasp) weekly shots HCG the 1 and 2 days prior to cyp helping to carry them thru the week.

cleverusername said:

I tend to aromatase and need it.

I think I will go a bit lighter on the Test C, trying 44mg 3 times a week, rather than the 48 as prescribed. I am already over the Labs "normal" ranges, not that the ranges mean anything.

Click to expand...

Of course the ranges mean something it allows one to differentiate between what is considered low/normal/excess levels. Many are misinformed regarding trt thinking ones levels need to be in the 1000+ range to benefit from trt where as in reality most men do well between 600-800 ng/dL along with a healthy free t range. Sure if you are one that falls in the 95th percentile and had high levels throughout puberty/young adulthood and now suffer from low t you may very well need to be 1000+ to experience relief of low t symptoms but it is not common that higher serum levels are always better. If you look over the chart for Bhasins (highly respected researcher in the field of androgens) results the mean total t for 20-29 yrs is 714 ng/dL. If you search the literature high/normal t levels are not always needed in order to experience relief of low t symptoms. There are also a lot of men misdiagnosed with low testosterone only to find out that it was really thyroid/adrenal dysfunction. Of course symptoms are important but labs are critical especially when diagnosing low t. The threshold for serum levels of testosterone is not as high as one would think to see relief/improvements of low t symptoms.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK279145/

Vince Carter said:

Things are not linear in that 48mg M/W/F is going to take you OVER what youre testing at now, It's almost something entirely new but I do like your thought to cut back just a little bit to start. Watch out for how you feel on Sunday leading up to a Monday injection, this will be the lowest point for T that you'll have all week. When I did it and my SHBG was lower than yours, Id get to a Low T state on Sunday night and feel like crap. EOD shots pretty much fixed that for me as I struggled to get back to my Monday shot.

The point of shooting HCG before your Cyp is to help bridge over to your shot the next day, a little endo Testosterone production but given M/W/F, EOD, or even daily I think the point is moot. I can see guys on E3.5D or (gasp) weekly shots HCG the 1 and 2 days prior to cyp helping to carry them thru the week.

Click to expand...

I was thinking about going EOD, but was not quite sure how to calculate that. I would hate to come up short and be needing a refill a week to soon. If I were to figure out a EOD schedule, then HCG really wouldnt need to be the day before, a 500ui twice a week would be sufficient, right? And if all things fail, I can always fall back on current protocol and stabilize myself again, I hope.

madman said:

Of course the ranges mean something it allows one to differentiate between what is considered low/normal/excess levels. Many are misinformed regarding trt thinking ones levels need to be in the 1000+ range to benefit from trt where as in reality most men do well between 600-800 ng/dL along with a healthy free t range. Sure if you are one that falls in the 95th percentile and had high levels throughout puberty/young adulthood and now suffer from low t you may very well need to be 1000+ to experience relief of low t symptoms but it is not common that higher serum levels are always better. If you look over the chart for Bhasins (highly respected researcher in the field of androgens) results the mean total t for 20-29 yrs is 714 ng/dL. If you search the literature high/normal t levels are not always needed in order to experience relief of low t symptoms. There are also a lot of men misdiagnosed with low testosterone only to find out that it was really thyroid/adrenal dysfunction. Of course symptoms are important but labs are critical especially when diagnosing low t. The threshold for serum levels of testosterone is not as high as one would think to see relief/improvements of low t symptoms.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK279145/

Click to expand...

I am fairly certain my levels at youth were not 1000+, but I do believe I was on the lower side during this time. I have a varicocele on my left testicle, and have had this since I can remember. I had asked a Dr but he said it's nothing to worry about. During my youth I was never really able to put on any sort of muscle, I hit the gym fairly hard from 18-20 and did "cut up" but produced no mass at all. This is my reasoning for thinking I have always been somewhat on the low side. Example, my back arms are now bigger than they have ever been, and this is just from work, no training at all. In fact I notice all my upper body seems to be stronger than in my youth. All my friends hit puberty way before I began to show signs of it as well. While at 42 this may be a good thing, I think I am also retaining water due to the high levels. I have sock intentions at the end of the day, my face seems a little puffy as well.

I didnt ask to be at 1000+, when I came to my current Dr I was on a 50mg e3.5d and was at a level of 500. My Free T was at 10.5 with a E2 Sensitive of 40.5, no AI at this time. Even at such low dosage I was already converting to much. That said I feel much better at 1000+ than I did at 500. I am also not against taking my levels down to a 700-800 range. As long as I can maintain feeling good, it may even reduce the retention and puffy face. Though judging by my levels @ the 50mg e3.5d I'll still need the AI. Makes me wonder if I have always converted so much, even while in my youth.


Wanted to add, my Adrenals are trashed! DHEA-S reads 60, Cortisol is low throughout the day as well. The drop between morning and noon is huge. I have begun taking something called a-Drenal, this seems to help somewhat during the day. But I feel like it is only a bandaid.

To figure an EOD just take what you're using now, 70mg 2 times per week = 140mg / 7 = 20mg, so 20 x 2 = 40mg EOD

That's how I would figure it for a start dose using the same cumulative weekly dose you're on now.

madman said:

Of course the ranges mean something it allows one to differentiate between what is considered low/normal/excess levels. Many are misinformed regarding trt thinking ones levels need to be in the 1000+ range to benefit from trt where as in reality most men do well between 600-800 ng/dL along with a healthy free t range. Sure if you are one that falls in the 95th percentile and had high levels throughout puberty/young adulthood and now suffer from low t you may very well need to be 1000+ to experience relief of low t symptoms but it is not common that higher serum levels are always better. If you look over the chart for Bhasins (highly respected researcher in the field of androgens) results the mean total t for 20-29 yrs is 714 ng/dL. If you search the literature high/normal t levels are not always needed in order to experience relief of low t symptoms. There are also a lot of men misdiagnosed with low testosterone only to find out that it was really thyroid/adrenal dysfunction. Of course symptoms are important but labs are critical especially when diagnosing low t. The threshold for serum levels of testosterone is not as high as one would think to see relief/improvements of low t symptoms.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK279145/

Click to expand...

I agree with this, but have limited experience. I am in the 500's for total T and feel great. With the exception of sex performance, I don't have any complaints. Maybe I would feel better if I was at 800, but I am happy, good workouts and energy levels, good mood (for me), and all my other blood work levels are good. Being at 800 to 900 and having high lipids or other out of wack bloods is not our goal and not ideal for long term health. It is all relative to what you experienced before, but sometimes feeling good is good enough (that might be from a song). Peace

Vince Carter said:

To figure an EOD just take what you're using now, 70mg 2 times per week = 140mg / 7 = 20mg, so 20 x 2 = 40mg EOD

That's how I would figure it for a start dose using the same cumulative weekly dose you're on now.

Click to expand...

Thanks, do you think using my same dose would take my trough much more than it is now?

Saul said:

I agree with this, but have limited experience. I am in the 500's for total T and feel great. With the exception of sex performance, I don't have any complaints. Maybe I would feel better if I was at 800, but I am happy, good workouts and energy levels, good mood (for me), and all my other blood work levels are good. Being at 800 to 900 and having high lipids or other out of wack bloods is not our goal and not ideal for long term health. It is all relative to what you experienced before, but sometimes feeling good is good enough (that might be from a song). Peace

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When you say "sex performance" do you mean Libido, as in the wanting to have? I think many of us have this from time to time. For me Libido seems to come and go, and I cant seem to pin down what is making it stronger at times and non existent at other times.

If the steroidcalc(dot)com is to be used/trusted, injecting 35mg EOD will keep my trough at near 1000. 40mg EOD will take it to a possible 1200, thats assuming my conversions are correct. So tomorrow morning I will begin at 40mg, then to 35mg EOD following. my AI will remain a Mon-Wed-Fri thing, as well as HCG. The new Crisler method will prove to difficult when on a EOD T schedule.

will report back!

cleverusername said:

If the steroidcalc(dot)com is to be used/trusted, injecting 35mg EOD will keep my trough at near 1000. 40mg EOD will take it to a possible 1200, thats assuming my conversions are correct. So tomorrow morning I will begin at 40mg, then to 35mg EOD following. my AI will remain a Mon-Wed-Fri thing, as well as HCG. The new Crisler method will prove to difficult when on a EOD T schedule.

will report back!

Click to expand...

Not a single bit of this is that linear...pick and dose and stick to it for 4 weeks min, test, and adjust if necessary. There's is not one single way to take a dose and equate it to a trough. Not one single way to do that.

Vince Carter's on the mark - there is no way anyone can say with certainty exactly where you'll land at trough after a protocol change. An experienced doctor can make an educated guess, just as an experi need patient can, but it always contains an element of uncertainty.

Vince said:

Personally, I like where your levels are at now, but there's nothing wrong with tweaking your protocol. I do it all the time.

Click to expand...

This is something I don't quite get yet. I see the advantage of being able to change how often you inject with what you have but I also want my doctor to be on the same page so he will be able to analyze my blood work better.
That being said, I also am unsure how to convince a doctor that you would be better off changing your protocol if you felt you were in a bad one. Do you just have to be persistent in explaining how you feel and asking why your blood work is the way it is?

busgalloway said:

This is something I don't quite get yet. I see the advantage of being able to change how often you inject with what you have but I also want my doctor to be on the same page so he will be able to analyze my blood work better.
That being said, I also am unsure how to convince a doctor that you would be better off changing your protocol if you felt you were in a bad one. Do you just have to be persistent in explaining how you feel and asking why your blood work is the way it is?

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Speaking for myself, and not for Vince, but addressing your question, I've never adjusted my protocol without significant discussion with my doctor. Over two years ago, I wasn't pleased, I was still clearing testosterone too quickly and my estradiol was slowly rising. In a pretty wide-ranging discussion we agreed to adopt a daily protocol in an effort to overcome both challenges. I'd read of them, but she raised the possibility. It was the best decision we made (and we made it jointly). A while later I was sick of HCG and told her so. She was dubious, but we discontinued it. I only resumed it when - after testicular atrophy became significant - she asked me to add it back. I wanted to give DHEA a try, we went back and forth on that for a few visits until I realized she was right - I felt wonderful and my labs weren't suggesting a real problem. Leave it alone. I raise all these examples to point out how we, the patient, ought to be full partners in our care. If something isn't right - or could be better - raise it with your doctor and have a wide-ranging discussion.

To add to my friend CW here, have it your back pocket that you may need to find a new Dr that is willing to learn and work with you. This may be the hardest part of all of this, finding competent care. But once you get there, having these conversations with a Dr that is knowledgable and works with you is a real bonus.

multi-reply post

Vince Carter said:

Not a single bit of this is that linear...pick and dose and stick to it for 4 weeks min, test, and adjust if necessary. There's is not one single way to take a dose and equate it to a trough. Not one single way to do that.

Click to expand...

I see, I sort of assumed by my current dose and trough could be somewhat gauged, but it makes sense that it cant. I really dont want to end up higher than I am already. In fact I would prefer a trough around 800-900, especially on a more freq injection cycle.

Vince Carter said:

To figure an EOD just take what you're using now, 70mg 2 times per week = 140mg / 7 = 20mg, so 20 x 2 = 40mg EOD

That's how I would figure it for a start dose using the same cumulative weekly dose you're on now.

Click to expand...

I went with 38mg EOD. 133 / 7 = 19mg x 2 = 38mg EOD

Really appreciate the calculation formula. Do you happen to know the T to E ratio formula?

CoastWatcher said:

Vince Carter's on the mark - there is no way anyone can say with certainty exactly where you'll land at trough after a protocol change. An experienced doctor can make an educated guess, just as an experi need patient can, but it always contains an element of uncertainty.

Click to expand...

I am far from a expert, not even out of the novice class yet. Is it fair to say, taking my same dose amount, 140mg weekly, and breaking this into EOD, my trough will rise?

busgalloway said:

This is something I don't quite get yet. I see the advantage of being able to change how often you inject with what you have but I also want my doctor to be on the same page so he will be able to analyze my blood work better.
That being said, I also am unsure how to convince a doctor that you would be better off changing your protocol if you felt you were in a bad one. Do you just have to be persistent in explaining how you feel and asking why your blood work is the way it is?

Click to expand...

I know you are replying to Vince, but I have spoken with my Dr. In fact that is who advised me to go to the Mon-Wed-Fri, I just have not done it yet. My Dr also gave me the freedom to play around with my AI, taking 1 less per week, or one more. Of course it wasnt meant to juggle the AI around, one week 2 the next 4 of them, but that I can increase or decrease, with a 4 week period between adjustments. I can order labs at any time, just pick up the phone and head to labcorp. In fact my latest labs were ordered by me. I was at a point of feeling pretty good so I wanted to pull my numbers. That said they forgot the DHT test I requested, O'well next time I guess.

***Update***

I am about 1 week into my protocol change, from 70mg e3.5d to 19mg EOD. It was a little rough at first, had a few bouts with some strong anxiety, but that seems to have mellowed out. While I still do feel anxious at times, it is not uncontrollable, I am able to remain calm and get past the anxiousness without any outward signs to those around me.

How do I feel? Not a whole lot different yet, I expect to be able to "feel" any positive or negative changes in a few weeks (4 at least). My HCG dose has been reduced from 350ui on mon-wed-fri to 200ui on none Test days, so EOD as well.

What do I hope to feel? I hope I can get more inline with natural hormone productions. My SHBG is on the lower side of the ref ranges, but at 70mg e3.5d I still had a trough of 1000+. Perhaps with this new protocol Ill play around with lowering my trough to about 800-900.

Do I still need my AI? Yes! I was going to take AI after each Test injection. But found out some weeks will have 4 pills, and others 3. I decided to pick a set schedule of mon-wed-fri regardless of what day I inject my Test C. Maybe when I lower my trough I can reduce my AI to twice per week instead of three times. The ultimate goal would be to eliminate the AI all together.

I just wanted to document this change somewhere, and figured this thread is as good as any place to do so.

Thanks for stopping by.

**Update**


I am coming up on a little over 3 weeks of the EOD injection schedule. So far, So good! I am feeling 100 times better than I was on e3.5d. I wish I had done this sooner, what a difference! My mood from day to day is now consistent, as where before I would start to level off close to my injection time. I am now wondering if a daily schedule would do me even better, but will wait before I attempt this. Right now I am injecting daily, just alternating Test C and HCG. The HCG is low dose at 200ui per injection.

Just wanted to post, let you all know things are going well for me and my new protocol. Thanks for the help everyone!

cleverusername said:

**Update**


I am coming up on a little over 3 weeks of the EOD injection schedule. So far, So good! I am feeling 100 times better than I was on e3.5d. I wish I had done this sooner, what a difference! My mood from day to day is now consistent, as where before I would start to level off close to my injection time. I am now wondering if a daily schedule would do me even better, but will wait before I attempt this. Right now I am injecting daily, just alternating Test C and HCG. The HCG is low dose at 200ui per injection.

Just wanted to post, let you all know things are going well for me and my new protocol. Thanks for the help everyone!

Click to expand...

Congratulations...keep us posted.