1. #1

    Creatine Question

    I started working out earlier this year and I'm doing pretty good. I've gradually made adjustments and added supplements as I go along so I can see what works for me. Since January I've lost 30 LBS.

    During this time I've added/stayed with Nurticost L-Citrulline Malate 2:1 (3g) and L-Arginine (5g). These seem to work great for me. My workout has improved, my resting heart rate is down 10 points (avg is now 58 resting), and erections are more frequent. I take these prior to heading for the gym in the AM. I'm not 100% I'm taking them far enough in advance to have them fully in my system when I start to workout. I take about 30 minutes before working out.

    I want to increase my muscle bulk. I going to add Creatine and I've read some post that Will Brink posted about it and it seems from what he's posted and what I've read online that Creatine Monohydrate is the best/tested option of all the different types out there.

    I'd like to hear what brands you guys use, what dose, and taking pre/post workout (or both)?

    I'm also taking a Whey Protein shake before heading to the gym. Its 50g of protein per drink. (2 scoops)

    Thanks for your suggestions.

    Steve

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  3. #2
    Creatine 5g/day elevated my serum creatinine too high, and eGFR changed with it, indicating kidney trouble. Everything returned to normal once discontinued and out of the system.

    Some say that elevated creatinine from creatine is OK and consider it a false positive for kidney disease, but I'd rather give my kidneys the break from having to deal with having to clear high creatinine levels.

    I don't think this is at all a problem for many, but just pay attention next cbc.

  4. #3
    Junior Member stevep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk View Post
    Creatine 5g/day elevated my serum creatinine too high, and eGFR changed with it, indicating kidney trouble. Everything returned to normal once discontinued and out of the system.

    Some say that elevated creatinine from creatine is OK and consider it a false positive for kidney disease, but I'd rather give my kidneys the break from having to deal with having to clear high creatinine levels.

    I don't think this is at all a problem for many, but just pay attention next cbc.
    Thanks for the heads up. I'll keep it in mind my next draw.

  5. #4
    I use and suggest the "Crea Pure" versions that out now, have more purity and potency than the stuff coming out of China and elsewhere, I think CreaPure is out of Germany, you might want to google and do some reading. I use 5g in my preworkout and I think...I think...(HA) its why my bodyweight is up and so are my lifts. I told my GF today that everything is working in my favor that last two weeks after feeling like I was plateaued.

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    As far as my Kidneys and many BB's do feel that Creatinie/Kidney can be false elevated with gym activity and/or Creatine use. After getting some high(er) tests there I started only doing bloods when I'm off 72hrs from the gym and Creatine and I make sure that I'm fasted 10hrs, water only, before my labs. Also the Creatinine test itself doesnt account for the increased muscle mass you/i/we are or maybe carrying...higher muscle mass = more creatinine in the system. More so high protein diet...a number of things should be factored in when looking at the Creatinine test results.

  6. #5
    Also to clarify its not a CBC with this test its a CMP.

  7. #6
    Junior Member stevep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Carter View Post
    Also to clarify its not a CBC with this test its a CMP.
    Thanks Vince, I'm researching Crea Pure now.

  8. #7
    Member Sean Mosher's Avatar
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    I personally have used AllMax Nutrition Creatine and their Beta Alanine as well.
    I add both of those along with Citrulline Malate 2:1 to my preworkout.
    Works like a champ.

  9. #8
    selfmade Pre-workout is 10x better than store bought, Ive been making my own for more than a year.

  10. #9
    Member Sean Mosher's Avatar
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    Vince Carter, same for me.
    How do you make yours?

    I use RSP Amino Lean as my base (caffeine and BCAA's), citrulline malate 2:1, beta alanine, arginine HCL, creatine mono, taurine.

  11. #10
    Beta Alanine
    Caffeine (100mg)
    Cit Malate
    Arginine
    Beet Root
    just added that CreaPure @ 5g per
    Sometimes flavored with 1tsp of powder G2

    Primarily I wanted a lot less caffeine than I was getting with one certain product it was like 200-300mg+ which was way to much.

  12. #11
    Super Moderator Gene Devine's Avatar
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    Do a post protein shake as well; bookend your workouts with whey protein isolate.

    Also, do a shake just before bed as when you sleep is when your body repairs and the needed proteins and BCAA's are critical for recovery and getting bigger!!!
    I am not a medical practitioner. Any suggestions I provide are not medical recommendations and are just my opinions. Please consult with your physician on any matters concerning your health.

  13. #12
    Member Sean Mosher's Avatar
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    I do a post workout shake and add leucine to it as well.
    Totally agree and am on board with you guys!

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by stevep View Post
    I started working out earlier this year and I'm doing pretty good. I've gradually made adjustments and added supplements as I go along so I can see what works for me. Since January I've lost 30 LBS.

    During this time I've added/stayed with Nurticost L-Citrulline Malate 2:1 (3g) and L-Arginine (5g). These seem to work great for me. My workout has improved, my resting heart rate is down 10 points (avg is now 58 resting), and erections are more frequent. I take these prior to heading for the gym in the AM. I'm not 100% I'm taking them far enough in advance to have them fully in my system when I start to workout. I take about 30 minutes before working out.

    I want to increase my muscle bulk. I going to add Creatine and I've read some post that Will Brink posted about it and it seems from what he's posted and what I've read online that Creatine Monohydrate is the best/tested option of all the different types out there.

    I'd like to hear what brands you guys use, what dose, and taking pre/post workout (or both)?

    I'm also taking a Whey Protein shake before heading to the gym. Its 50g of protein per drink. (2 scoops)

    Thanks for your suggestions.

    Steve
    Creatine monohydrate from any company using Creapure as their source any time of day as timing does not matter. That's literally all you need to know to make in informed choice on creatine. More info, see The Creatine Graveyard

  15. #14
    Junior Member stevep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Carter View Post
    Beta Alanine
    Caffeine (100mg)
    Cit Malate
    Arginine
    Beet Root
    just added that CreaPure @ 5g per
    Sometimes flavored with 1tsp of powder G2

    Primarily I wanted a lot less caffeine than I was getting with one certain product it was like 200-300mg+ which was way to much.
    Thanks for sharing this. Unknowingly, I guess I'm working toward something like this. With adding creatine I'm already halfway there with what I'm using.

  16. #15
    Junior Member stevep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Brink View Post
    Creatine monohydrate from any company using Creapure as their source any time of day as timing does not matter. That's literally all you need to know to make in informed choice on creatine. More info, see The Creatine Graveyard
    I read over the creatine graveyard last night, which assured me the creatine mono is the way to go.

  17. #16
    Junior Member stevep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gene Devine View Post
    Do a post protein shake as well; bookend your workouts with whey protein isolate.

    Also, do a shake just before bed as when you sleep is when your body repairs and the needed proteins and BCAA's are critical for recovery and getting bigger!!!
    I've only been having a whey protein shake before workouts. I can add them afterward and at the end of the day.

    My main goal was to drop weight and I've done a decent job of that over the past several months. But I think I need to add more protein and cut out more bad carbs to my diet if I want to grow my muscles more. I'm consuming less that 2500 calories a day. I still have a gut, but it's slowly going away. I"m guessing I've lost at least 4" off my waist.

  18. #17
    Im on 9 scoops of Whey per day, mid morning bout 8, gym @ 1030-1145, shake, then shake before bedtime.

  19. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Will Brink View Post
    Creatine monohydrate from any company using Creapure as their source any time of day as timing does not matter. That's literally all you need to know to make in informed choice on creatine. More info, see The Creatine Graveyard
    Thoughts on creatine HCL?

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by stevep View Post
    I've only been having a whey protein shake before workouts. I can add them afterward and at the end of the day.

    My main goal was to drop weight and I've done a decent job of that over the past several months. But I think I need to add more protein and cut out more bad carbs to my diet if I want to grow my muscles more. I'm consuming less that 2500 calories a day. I still have a gut, but it's slowly going away. I"m guessing I've lost at least 4" off my waist.
    Good for you. That is great. What helped me was to understand why I was eating. I was using it as entertainment or a treat. I did not need it for hunger or nutrition. I was not overweight, but it was that extra 10 to 15 lbs that I did not need. Once I said I am not eating for entertainment or because I am bored, it helped with the extra fat. That plus TRT and working out : )

  21. #20
    Junior Member stevep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Carter View Post
    Im on 9 scoops of Whey per day, mid morning bout 8, gym @ 1030-1145, shake, then shake before bedtime.
    Wow 9 scoops; 225 grams of protein. Then you have your meals on top of that.

    I'm anywhere between 90 to 150 grams depending on what I have that day.

    I've read where you should have 1g per pound of body weight (212lbs) and some articles say 1.5g to build muscle.

    I guess I need to make some more venison jerky to snack on.

  22. #21
    Junior Member stevep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saul View Post
    Good for you. That is great. What helped me was to understand why I was eating. I was using it as entertainment or a treat. I did not need it for hunger or nutrition. I was not overweight, but it was that extra 10 to 15 lbs that I did not need. Once I said I am not eating for entertainment or because I am bored, it helped with the extra fat. That plus TRT and working out : )
    Thanks, For me I like that sweet snack (Reese Cups or something) at night while watching TV and having a drink or two also. Lots of empty calories. Melissa at Defy asked me to give up the Reese Cups and to be honest I was surprised on our second meeting she asked how I was doing with that. I'm sure she documented it, but it still impressed me she was interested enough to follow up. I was kinda happy to tell her I hadn't had any leading up to our third conversation.

  23. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Carter View Post

    As far as my Kidneys and many BB's do feel that Creatinie/Kidney can be false elevated with gym activity and/or Creatine use. After getting some high(er) tests there I started only doing bloods when I'm off 72hrs from the gym and Creatine and I make sure that I'm fasted 10hrs, water only, before my labs. Also the Creatinine test itself doesnt account for the increased muscle mass you/i/we are or maybe carrying...higher muscle mass = more creatinine in the system. More so high protein diet...a number of things should be factored in when looking at the Creatinine test results.
    Help me out Vince, Trying to understand the logic of this. I don't get how that's false positive. It's more like you are creating a false negative by fudging the blood test, and the rest of the time your kidneys have to work harder to clear the extra creatinine load and the extra waste from muscle breakdown from all that extra muscle mass and protein intake. Is it the perspective that if you go back to no creatine intake and rest three days that your kidneys are not actually damaged?

    But then, is it a good thing to keep the higher workload on the kidneys all the time?

    Thanks



    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Carter View Post
    Also to clarify its not a CBC with this test its a CMP.
    Fair enough, sorry for my Misteak!

  24. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by stevep View Post
    Thanks, For me I like that sweet snack (Reese Cups or something) at night while watching TV and having a drink or two also. Lots of empty calories. Melissa at Defy asked me to give up the Reese Cups and to be honest I was surprised on our second meeting she asked how I was doing with that. I'm sure she documented it, but it still impressed me she was interested enough to follow up. I was kinda happy to tell her I hadn't had any leading up to our third conversation.
    That is a good example. For me it was chips or cereal or fruit/bread dessert. In any event, we don't need it for nutrition or because we are honestly hungry - it is just eating for fun because it tastes good and we are bored at night. Who doesn't like watching TV or reading and having a snack, but it was adding a pound a month or every other month. I cut back on the booze too. I also felt like I was eating/drinking because of the mental effects of low T or too much iron and that affected me mentally and made me more mentally weak or having apathy.

    By the way, your first post inspired me to try a pre-work out supplement to see if it helps, so thanks for that.

  25. #24
    Junior Member stevep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saul View Post
    That is a good example. For me it was chips or cereal or fruit/bread dessert. In any event, we don't need it for nutrition or because we are honestly hungry - it is just eating for fun because it tastes good and we are bored at night. Who doesn't like watching TV or reading and having a snack, but it was adding a pound a month or every other month. I cut back on the booze too. I also felt like I was eating/drinking because of the mental effects of low T or too much iron and that affected me mentally and made me more mentally weak or having apathy.

    By the way, your first post inspired me to try a pre-work out supplement to see if it helps, so thanks for that.
    I don't think you'll be disappointed by adding supplement(s). I'm happy with it so far.

    What got me interested was Gene's NO stack and what other people where saying about how it helps them as well. So I tried the L-Citrulline Malate 2:1 (3g) and L-Arginine (5g) and now I'm sold and looking at next steps to take this to the next level.

    It was recommended by someone here you need at least 6 grams of the L-Citrulline to be effective. I do that and the 5 grams of the L-Arginine along with the Whey Protein shake (60 grams) before working out. After reading these post I'm going to step up the Whey Protein and add Creatine Mono. I'll see what results I get over the next month or so.

    I'm new to body building so I'm sure I'll be making some mistakes down the line. I'm just winging it.

  26. #25
    I have found that the HCL Creatine works better for me than Mono. I don't get bloated at all with HCL, nor any gas. CreaPure would give me stomach issues. Preworkout contains HCL and I add 5g HCL to my post workout Whey Protein shake.

  27. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by stevep View Post
    I've only been having a whey protein shake before workouts. I can add them afterward and at the end of the day.

    My main goal was to drop weight and I've done a decent job of that over the past several months. But I think I need to add more protein and cut out more bad carbs to my diet if I want to grow my muscles more. I'm consuming less that 2500 calories a day. I still have a gut, but it's slowly going away. I"m guessing I've lost at least 4" off my waist.
    If you are looking at purity/quality Creapure (creatine monohydrate) is what you want and Carnosyn (beta-alanine). Just understand that if you are looking to add muscle bulk your diet is far more critical than creatine. Sure adding creatine to your supplement regime will increase atp production/hydrate the muscle cell leading to slight increases in strength/overall work load and increase recovery but the weight gain will be nothing to brag about as most gain anywhere from 2-5lbs due and increased intra cellular water in the muscle cells. Congratulations on your weight loss! You stated that originally your main goal was to drop weight (adipose tissue) and now you would like to bulk up. If you are consuming less than 2500 calories/day you will have a hard time adding muscle bulk and especially if you are following a lower carb diet as carbs are critical in the sense that not only do they increase glycogen storage in the muscle cells which will allow one to train more intensely/improve recovery but for every gram of glycogen stored in the muscle roughly 3 grams water is stored in the muscle which will improve muscle fullness/strength/pumps and allow one to put on more overall muscle mass. Overall calorie intake is important to whether one gains/loses body weight as it costs the body more energy to build new muscle tissue as oppose to maintaining it. Of course one can still build muscle on lower carbs but if bulking is your goal consuming a moderate/higher carbohydrate diet from lower g.i. complex carb sources will be superior as the human body is capable of storing up to 500 grams of carbohydrate in the muscle and one will be bigger/stronger/ with fuller muscles and improved recovery due to increased glycogen storage. The goal is to find how many carbohydrates your body can tolerate as some will do better with lower carbs as oppose to others who can consume moderate/higher carbs due to ones genetics/insulin sensitivity. Low carb diets are great for many for shedding body fat/achieving the ripped lean look but as far as being big/muscular I do not know too many low carbers that fit the profile. If anything I find when one goes too low carb their muscle glycogen stores are always depleted and the muscles look flat and I would say even when in a calorie surplus whether one is following low carb/high fat/moderate protein vs moderate-high carb/low fat/moderate protein the latter will always have an easier time adding overall muscle bulk! Just something to keep in mind.

  28. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Saul View Post
    Thoughts on creatine HCL?
    It's covered in the graveyard if that tells you anything. No real data on HCL.

  29. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Starplex View Post
    I have found that the HCL Creatine works better for me than Mono. I don't get bloated at all with HCL, nor any gas. CreaPure would give me stomach issues. Preworkout contains HCL and I add 5g HCL to my post workout Whey Protein shake.
    Did you pre dissolve in warm liquid? That cures stomach issues vast majority of the time.

  30. #29
    Junior Member stevep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madman View Post
    If you are looking at purity/quality Creapure (creatine monohydrate) is what you want and Carnosyn (beta-alanine). Just understand that if you are looking to add muscle bulk your diet is far more critical than creatine. Sure adding creatine to your supplement regime will increase atp production/hydrate the muscle cell leading to slight increases in strength/overall work load and increase recovery but the weight gain will be nothing to brag about as most gain anywhere from 2-5lbs due and increased intra cellular water in the muscle cells. Congratulations on your weight loss! You stated that originally your main goal was to drop weight (adipose tissue) and now you would like to bulk up. If you are consuming less than 2500 calories/day you will have a hard time adding muscle bulk and especially if you are following a lower carb diet as carbs are critical in the sense that not only do they increase glycogen storage in the muscle cells which will allow one to train more intensely/improve recovery but for every gram of glycogen stored in the muscle roughly 3 grams water is stored in the muscle which will improve muscle fullness/strength/pumps and allow one to put on more overall muscle mass. Overall calorie intake is important to whether one gains/loses body weight as it costs the body more energy to build new muscle tissue as oppose to maintaining it. Of course one can still build muscle on lower carbs but if bulking is your goal consuming a moderate/higher carbohydrate diet from lower g.i. complex carb sources will be superior as the human body is capable of storing up to 500 grams of carbohydrate in the muscle and one will be bigger/stronger/ with fuller muscles and improved recovery due to increased glycogen storage. The goal is to find how many carbohydrates your body can tolerate as some will do better with lower carbs as oppose to others who can consume moderate/higher carbs due to ones genetics/insulin sensitivity. Low carb diets are great for many for shedding body fat/achieving the ripped lean look but as far as being big/muscular I do not know too many low carbers that fit the profile. If anything I find when one goes too low carb their muscle glycogen stores are always depleted and the muscles look flat and I would say even when in a calorie surplus whether one is following low carb/high fat/moderate protein vs moderate-high carb/low fat/moderate protein the latter will always have an easier time adding overall muscle bulk! Just something to keep in mind.
    Thanks for the good information. When I say I want to bulk up, I'm not necessarily looking to become a body builder, but my 5' 11" frame was at 242 which wasn't a pretty sight last January. I want to get rid of my gut and build muscle. I want to be fit and look fit.

    Another thing Melissa told me was I can workout all I want, but until I get my diet under control I will make minimal gains. I believe she said it's 90% diet and 10% exercise.

    I know I need to eat more complex carbs but I have it in my head "protein = muscle". I've cut out a ton of simple carbs (sweets, white rice, pasta, etc) and I think that is the major reason I've dropped 30 lbs. I'm eating a lot of fruit, drinking a lot of water instead of eating/drinking junk. I need to add the beans, veggies, etc which I'm not a fan of. I prefer the veggies raw vs. cooked and I need to start integrating them in my diet. Today I asked my wife to pick me up some broccoli or cauliflower so I can eat it (raw). I think she got me cauliflower.

    What I don't understand if there is a ratio of (good) carbohydrates to protein I should strive to achieve?

    or

    As I read before 1 gram of protein for every pound of body weight. With that I need 212 grams of protein to effectively build muscle. Is there a rule of thumb that works for carbs?

  31. #30
    [QUOTE=stevep;81965]Thanks for the good information. When I say I want to bulk up, I'm not necessarily looking to become a body builder, but my 5' 11" frame was at 242 which wasn't a pretty sight last January. I want to get rid of my gut and build muscle. I want to be fit and look fit.

    Another thing Melissa told me was I can workout all I want, but until I get my diet under control I will make minimal gains. I believe she said it's 90% diet and 10% exercise.
    ************************************************** ************************************************** ************
    Complex carbs like oats/basmati rice/sweet potato/yam/whole grain pasta/beans and lentils are game and regarding fruits as healthy as they may be chalk full of(vitamins/minerals/fiber(soluble/insoluble) they contain mostly fructose and depending on the fruit a fair amount of carbs. Eating a few pieces/day is ok but you are far better off eating mostly vegetables. You need to eat starch derived from complex starchy carbs which are converted to glycogen and stored in the muscle. I would not go any lower than 100-150 grams/day. You are 200+ pounds so you could try 200 grams/day which would be 800 calories. Just start out on the lower end and increase slowly. Try a 1:1 ratio of carb-protein ( 200 gram carb + 200 gram protein)=1600 calories than you can make up the rest of your calories from healthy fats. Muscle cell is roughly 70% water 30% protein (actin/myosin) and of course protein is required to repair/maintain/build muscle tissue but it is only part of the equation as a calorie surplus (250-500 cal/day) is needed to aid in growth let alone a healthy anabolic environment test levels!

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