current protocol not working feel terrible

lowe2sucks · Aug 22, 2017

you can't judge on symptoms... sometimes you feel euphoric when you go too low on e2 because androgen to estrogen ratio changes and makes you get dopamine high.. so you may think you are perfectly balanced but you are not.. and then when you e2 raises to healthy levels you start to feel like shit if you were low for long time... nobody needs anastrozole on healthy dose of testosterone you think you need one because you feel like shit when hormones are in their healthy spots

nurselyfe · Aug 22, 2017

lowe2sucks said:
you can't judge on symptoms... sometimes you feel euphoric when you go too low on e2 because androgen to estrogen ratio changes and makes you get dopamine high.. so you may think you are perfectly balanced but you are not.. and then when you e2 raises to healthy levels you start to feel like shit if you were low for long time... nobody needs anastrozole on healthy dose of testosterone you think you need one because you feel like shit when hormones are in their healthy spots

Hey Bud, thanks for the reply. Everything you said is 110% correct. If my TT is 600-700 I probably don't need an AI. However with just 60mg x2 a week, my peak TT levels @ 48hrs post injection are at ~1,500! I'm sure my doctor will lower it during my next appt.

And about feeling good with low e2 is also right. I've experienced that, but I DID know my e2 was really low because I had other symptoms as well.

I really think my body is 'out of whack' for lack of better words from the crashes. Low e2 isn't giving me painful joints, euphoria, great pumps and morning wood (usual low e2 symptoms). It's giving me fluid retention dry skin no pumps and anxiety. I'm assuming it's because Id be severely dehydrated with E2 <5pg/mL so my body was holding on to water and is continuing to do so. I decided Im staying off AI for 6 weeks and getting blood work again. Doctor will probably lower my T dose as well depending on my trough levels. I'm going to let my body reach homeostasis with E2. Probably will stay off AI for months regardless of E2 levels.

user_joe · Aug 23, 2017

Lots going on here. I'll cut to what would be helpful if I were you based on just my experience.

1500 tt at peak isn't necessarily a big deal. Check trough. Don't change your dose now.

E2 17 is too low. Not by a bunch, but I've been there a couple times. For me libido isn't what it should be. I feel alright, but I know something isn't dialed in. You shouldn't be holding water from that. I'd look elsewhere.

Id agree with no ai as the next test. Pull an e2 test just 3 weeks in if you want and at 6 weeks. I don't think you will end up with e high enough to feel awful. It either will work out or you half the ai dose.

Just my $0.02.

nurselyfe said:
Hey Bud, thanks for the reply. Everything you said is 110% correct. If my TT is 600-700 I probably don't need an AI. However with just 60mg x2 a week, my peak TT levels @ 48hrs post injection are at ~1,500! I'm sure my doctor will lower it during my next appt.

And about feeling good with low e2 is also right. I've experienced that, but I DID know my e2 was really low because I had other symptoms as well.

I really think my body is 'out of whack' for lack of better words from the crashes. Low e2 isn't giving me painful joints, euphoria, great pumps and morning wood (usual low e2 symptoms). It's giving me fluid retention dry skin no pumps and anxiety. I'm assuming it's because Id be severely dehydrated with E2 <5pg/mL so my body was holding on to water and is continuing to do so. I decided Im staying off AI for 6 weeks and getting blood work again. Doctor will probably lower my T dose as well depending on my trough levels. I'm going to let my body reach homeostasis with E2. Probably will stay off AI for months regardless of E2 levels.

nurselyfe · Aug 23, 2017

user_joe said:
Lots going on here. I'll cut to what would be helpful if I were you based on just my experience.

1500 tt at peak isn't necessarily a big deal. Check trough. Don't change your dose now.

E2 17 is too low. Not by a bunch, but I've been there a couple times. For me libido isn't what it should be. I feel alright, but I know something isn't dialed in. You shouldn't be holding water from that. I'd look elsewhere.

Id agree with no ai as the next test. Pull an e2 test just 3 weeks in if you want and at 6 weeks. I don't think you will end up with e high enough to feel awful. It either will work out or you half the ai dose.

Just my $0.02.

Hey user_joe, thanks for the reply.

With my doctors next follow up panel I'm checking trough levels so we'll see what those are. And like I said, normally low E2 shouldn't make anyone hold water. It never made me hold water. Id become very dehydrated actually. Could eat as much salt as I wanted and not hold water.

However, when my E2 crashed (<5pg/mL), I held the most water i've ever did. I'm assuming it's the body's defense mechanism against dehydration. I'm not a doctor so I don't know. And since then, I've held water no matter my E2. Diet has not changed.

With that said, I'm assuming I need to reach homeostasis again and will continue on without an AI for 5 weeks @ the same T dose 60mg x2 week., Get retested @ trough. And update again. Going to ask Doc if we can test some of my mineralcorticoids such as aldosterone and vasopressin.

lowe2sucks · Aug 23, 2017

nurselyfe said:
Hey user_joe, thanks for the reply.

With my doctors next follow up panel I'm checking trough levels so we'll see what those are. And like I said, normally low E2 shouldn't make anyone hold water. It never made me hold water. Id become very dehydrated actually. Could eat as much salt as I wanted and not hold water.

However, when my E2 crashed (<5pg/mL), I held the most water i've ever did. I'm assuming it's the body's defense mechanism against dehydration. I'm not a doctor so I don't know. And since then, I've held water no matter my E2. Diet has not changed.

With that said, I'm assuming I need to reach homeostasis again and will continue on without an AI for 5 weeks @ the same T dose 60mg x2 week., Get retested @ trough. And update again. Going to ask Doc if we can test some of my mineralcorticoids such as aldosterone and vasopressin.

imo after all the crashes you should forget about AI forever... it's the AI overuse ****ed you up, first it made you feel really good but now you are burned out

nurselyfe · Aug 23, 2017

lowe2sucks said:
imo after all the crashes you should forget about AI forever... it's the AI overuse ****ed you up, first it made you feel really good but now you are burned out

Possibly, it made me feel great for 3 years. Used 0.2mg every 10 days or so.

Think I should talk to my doc to switching to ED or EOD dosing w/ no AI during my next appt in september? My e2 will be high at 60mg x2/week IM.

Really curious about the SubQ method and how it works for some people

ZoomyR6 · Aug 23, 2017

Vince said:
Too short of time on protocol, you at least 6 weeks for your levels to adjust. Remember do Labs on injection day before you inject.

Vince said:
I would skip the AI and keep the rest of your protocol for at least 6 weeks and do labs. Remember do labs on injection day before you inject, I always fast before labs.

Vince Carter said:
You get some animosity from me at least because you don't listen. period.

nurselyfe said:
How do I not listen...? You said post labs so I did. You said don't change my protocol so I haven't. You said be consistent so I have.

So how long after your T shot did you get labs pulled? I'm pretty sure this is what Mr. Carter means...

Saxon · Aug 23, 2017

nurselyfe said:
Last two years my protocol was 60mg x2 Test E weekly, not pharmaceutical grade. So it may have not been properly concentrated. No hcg, and 0.2mg anastrazole every 1.5-2 weeks. That kept me feeling incredible, energetic, libido through the roof, and great pumps. Plain and simple this worked for me.

Why did you change this? Unfortunately you've gone and gotten your body out of whack. Fortunately, you have a script and some experience. This does go ve your the opportunity to get dialed in using the pharma grade test. Your newest protocol seems pretty good (standard) but you're going to have to wait until you stabilize. How's your hematocrit level? I feel terrible when my crib levels get high and BP goes up. How is your BP?

Have you tried LISS? Have you tried a super low sodium diet for now? Those may help you with the high E sides a bit while you regulate.

nurselyfe · Aug 23, 2017

ZoomyR6 said:
So how long after your T shot did you get labs pulled? I'm pretty sure this is what Mr. Carter means...

For the E2 reading it was 24hrs post arimidex and T shot administration. But for my next blood work it's going to be trough (84hrs).

nurselyfe · Aug 23, 2017

Saxon said:
Why did you change this? Unfortunately you've gone and gotten your body out of whack. Fortunately, you have a script and some experience. This does go ve your the opportunity to get dialed in using the pharma grade test. Your newest protocol seems pretty good (standard) but you're going to have to wait until you stabilize. How's your hematocrit level? I feel terrible when my crib levels get high and BP goes up. How is your BP?

Have you tried LISS? Have you tried a super low sodium diet for now? Those may help you with the high E sides a bit while you regulate.

Hi Saxon, fantastic question. Since I was self medicating, I had trouble this past year on finding reliable sources for Testosterone. This threw things way out of whack. Ruined my 3 years of bein dialed in and it's probably why this all happened. My latest hematocrit shows 49.0, HgB is at 16.2, a month ago.

Its gone as high as 17.8 and even there I did not feel bad. Obviously donated blood since then.

My thyroid is normal. But t3 and t4 were both lower than previous tests from a year ago. Not surprised bc my metabolism is way slower, due to the fact I can barely build muscle right now.

And yep, I've tried low sodium, high sodium, low carbs, etc. As you said, I have experience, and when my estrogen was in range when my body wasn't out of whack, I never had much water retention and I had fantastic pumps and oily skin. I have none of that now. Dry skin, water retention, no pumps, joints feel incredible.

nurselyfe · Aug 23, 2017

Also would just like to state Im going to update this thread until my issues are completely 'fixed'

I've searched every thread on the internet and I've seen a handful of men with the same issue as me, and no one believes them or understands it. And worst part is these men stop updating their thread so others can't benefit.

So im going to keep at this so others can learn and take away from it.

lowe2sucks · Aug 23, 2017

man I know what your problem is... you desperately want to feel like you felt before but it's not gonna happen man... when you are low e2 you burn through dopamine like crazy.. first you feel nice moods, great pumps and strenght and libido, confidence all good stuff but it burns your dopamine.. you may think you were in your sweat spot but you wasn't.

nurselyfe · Aug 23, 2017

lowe2sucks said:
man I know what your problem is... you desperately want to feel like you felt before but it's not gonna happen man... when you are low e2 you burn through dopamine like crazy.. first you feel nice moods, great pumps and strenght and libido, confidence all good stuff but it burns your dopamine.. you may think you were in your sweat spot but you wasn't.

Low e2 or crashed? There's a huge difference. Low E2 I felt like everything you described above but I always feel good after, just some dry skin and achy joints for 2-3 days. Crashed E2 I have water retention no pumps depression suicidal thoughts anxiety.

My mood is good now no anxiety or any of that mental shit. I just don't PHYSICALLY feel like I did before, which obviously would put anyone in a bad mood here and there. I don't think dopamine has anything to do with that. Especially since dopamine is responsible for pleasure and motivation. I'm a highly motivated individual still and I do not have anhehondia.

lowe2sucks · Aug 23, 2017

I never felt physically the same when I quit AI for 3 years... physique changed completely but I was on right track.. you need doctor man.. but good doctor that knows what he is doing.. one that you can trust to manage your trt so you don't need to overthink it.. self medicating can lead to trouble even if it doesn't seem like it when you do it.

nurselyfe · Aug 23, 2017

lowe2sucks said:
I never felt physically the same when I quit AI for 3 years... physique changed completely but I was on right track.. you need doctor man.. but good doctor that knows what he is doing.. one that you can trust to manage your trt so you don't need to overthink it.. self medicating can lead to trouble even if it doesn't seem like it when you do it.

How were you before the Ai? On the AI? and how were you after? and now? what happened to you exactly?

I have a pretty good doctor. He just isn't open to the fact that I had water retention with crashed E2. He thinks it's just from being on Test and sodium. Which is true, but when I had normal or low E2 I never had this issue.

lowe2sucks · Aug 23, 2017

water retention is not always an e2 problem.. i've had my face lean with low e2 but then it was getting bloated all the time because i was getting dehydrated and body raised the water retention hormones to not die from dehydration.. so i was bloated with crashed e2 too don't judge e2 based on water retention there is a lot more to that. when my e2 got too low at first I started to feel really great and I thought I was in sweet spot but then it was all downhill from there... i have a lot of damage from that.. bone loss, my sex drive is very low most of the time, almost no self confidence.. i can definitely say that AI overuse in the past ****ed me up greatly.. even after 3 years i still can't get back to pre AI state.. so

worst of all I have signs of dopamine deficiency and have cravings to cigarettes, coffee and all that stuff and barely can function without it.. there was a thread here somewhere how estrogen deprivation leads to death of dopamine cells and it may not be 100% reversible.. so i am worried about guys here who throw AI into the mix when it's not really needed or judge AI use by morning wood and so on

nurselyfe · Aug 23, 2017

lowe2sucks said:
water retention is not always an e2 problem.. i've had my face lean with low e2 but then it was getting bloated all the time because i was getting dehydrated and body raised the water retention hormones to not die from dehydration.. so i was bloated with crashed e2 too don't judge e2 based on water retention there is a lot more to that. when my e2 got too low at first I started to feel really great and I thought I was in sweet spot but then it was all downhill from there... i have a lot of damage from that.. bone loss, my sex drive is very low most of the time, almost no self confidence.. i can definitely say that AI overuse in the past ****ed me up greatly.. even after 3 years i still can't get back to pre AI state.. so

worst of all I have signs of dopamine deficiency and have cravings to cigarettes, coffee and all that stuff and barely can function without it.. there was a thread here somewhere how estrogen deprivation leads to death of dopamine cells and it may not be 100% reversible.. so i am worried about guys here who throw AI into the mix when it's not really needed or judge AI use by morning wood and so on

Exactly, before my crashes I always had zero water retention with low e2 and water retention with high e2. This is when I could judge E2 off water retention. But then it got to a point where my body starting holding water when I was crashed, most likely from increased aldosterone so my body did not dehydrate.

I don't have any of those dopamine depletion issues, and dopamine actually makes you hold water. My motivation is good, mood is good, I don't crave anything, and I don't have any bone loss. But, I feel like my TRT isn't as good as before my crashes, something isn't right. You're saying I won't really be able to get pumps anymore? I won't be vascular again? I permanently screwed up my body? Have you gotten close to physically feeling like you were?

Also how did you crash your e2? What did your labs say!

lowe2sucks · Aug 23, 2017

[FONT=&quot]Dopamine is an important regulator of salt and water excretion by the kidney. The kidney has a robust intrarenal dopaminergic system, and there is increasing evidence that alterations in intrarenal dopamine signaling may underlie essential hypertension in certain human populations. Ongoing studies linking functional polymorphisms in GRK4 with hypertension in both experimental animals and humans provide a plausible mechanism for dysregulation of proximal tubule dopamine receptor function and signaling that may underlie increased sodium reabsorption and the ultimate development of hypertension ([/FONT]Fig. 2[FONT=&quot]).[/FONT]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3742329/

have you checked yourself for bone loss? im surprised you don't have bone loss from such huge doses of AI

johndoesmith · Aug 24, 2017

lowe2sucks said:
Dopamine is an important regulator of salt and water excretion by the kidney. The kidney has a robust intrarenal dopaminergic system, and there is increasing evidence that alterations in intrarenal dopamine signaling may underlie essential hypertension in certain human populations. Ongoing studies linking functional polymorphisms in GRK4 with hypertension in both experimental animals and humans provide a plausible mechanism for dysregulation of proximal tubule dopamine receptor function and signaling that may underlie increased sodium reabsorption and the ultimate development of hypertension (Fig. 2).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3742329/

have you checked yourself for bone loss? im surprised you don't have bone loss from such huge doses of AI

There's a difference between peripheral and neural dopamine.

ZoomyR6 · Aug 24, 2017

If I read this thread correctly, you felt great when you started trt with an AI and then felt like crap. Then you stopped the AI and felt great and then felt like crap again.

My opinion, stop the AI all together and deal with the sides (if you get any) for 6 weeks and then re-test bloods. Adjust from there. It seems as if you haven't ever gave your body a chance to stabilize NOT using an AI.
As stated before, you shouldn't have started with an AI to begin with. Stabilize, test bloods, and go from there.

current protocol not working feel terrible

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