Stopped My AI and HCG and It's Working

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Sorry for the long winded post, but needed to provide a detailed history to provide better clarity into the situation. I started TRT a few years ago, but didn't really have it dialed in because I was apparently seeing a doctor that knew nothing about TRT. Dosage prescribed was 200mg of TCyp once every two weeks. After a year of agony, I switched to a new doctor in March of 2016 and things got much better. Shortly after that, I found this site and began changing my protocol, based on feedback from many on this forum. Those changes worked very well for me, including; changing syringe size, dosage frequency, and overall dosage. Everything had been going well, but I still felt a bit of a roller coaster ride from week to week. The dosage I had been prescribed by my new doctor was 200mg once per week of TCyp, 1,500iu of HCG once per week, and .5 mg Arimidex twice per week. At that time, I was using 21g needles to draw and 25g-1.5" needles to inject quad. With help from forum members, I switched to 100mg of TCyp E3.5D, 350iu of HCG E3.5D, and .25mg of Arimidex E3.5D with 29g-1/2" needles to inject delt. I've always used 31g 5/8" needles to inject HCG into stomach fat. I was on this new protocol for about 4-5 months. Overall, I felt much better on this new protocol and REALLY enjoyed the thinner/shorter needles, as well. Night wood was good and libido was getting much better, but I knew I still wasn't dialed in.

At that point, I decided to make another change to see if I could feel even better. I switched to ED injections of 15mg of TCyp and kept my HCG at E3.5D along with the .25mg of Arimidex. I started feeling even more stable, but honestly still had somewhat of a roller coaster a few times a week. I am somewhat of a low SHBG guy, so I can feel the difference already with daily injections (latest labs 12 nmol/L - range 10-55 nmol/L). At that point, I decided to completely get rid of the AI and only use it if I felt it was needed. Again, started feeling better and better, but still not quite there. Again, night wood was getting better and libido was getting up there, as well. But it wasn't constant. It was up and down, so still not fully dialed in. I was on this protocol for about 4-5 months, as well. I honestly think I had crashed my E2's with my previous protocol. I was always tired, libido was starting to suffer, erections were not as pronounced (we'll say), and my eyes were always dry and felt tired (even after a good night sleep).

Recently, I tried MENT (Trestolone)...bad mistake. The first 3-4 days were amazing (felt the sweet spot for 3 days in a row), but it was short lived. After that, I started getting headaches and my blood pressure started to spike up pretty high. I stopped taking it immediately.

For the past 3-4 weeks, I decided to completely stop taking my HCG and I think I'm getting more and more dialed in to where I want to be. I had a vasectomy about 12 yrs ago, so I'm obviously not worried about fertility. Also not really worried too much about the testicle atrophy. So, I didn't really think I needed the HCG. I really think this is what's been giving me the roller coaster ride I had been on. Since I changed my protocol 3-4 weeks ago and ONLY taking 15mg of TCyp ED, my night wood has been constant, libido has been the most stable to date, energy and mood is getting better and better. My hematocrit levels are also now stable and constantly at 42, so I don't need to donate blood every 8 weeks anymore.

For me, tweaking my protocol and equipment (thanks to the advice of everyone on the forum) to find what works best for me and makes me feel the best (regardless of numbers on any labs) has been the best thing I could have ever done. The way I feel, I think, has more bearing than any number on lab work. Obviously, we all still need to get labs done to make sure everything is in line and where it should be for important things like hematocrit and lipid panel results, but I'm definitely not going to rely on specific or target T or E2 levels anymore. Eventually, I think I may even try reducing my dosage even lower to see if that helps me even more. I'll try this for about 2-3 months then start reducing and logging again to see where I feel the best. A million thanks to everyone for their input on this forum. It's made a world of difference for me and others, I'm sure.
 
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You're not the only guy that has found some positives with dropping HCG, I've stopped it for about 30 days but didn't really "feel" anything and I returned to and continue to use HCG just for the cosmetics of my ball sack. I've previously used as little as 100iu E3.5D, but now 250iu E3.5D.
 
Congratulations on your success. It's interesting because some people insist HCG is necessary to feel as good as possible on trt, but obviously there are exceptions. If there's one thing to be taken from your success story though it's that finding a reasonable way to eliminate AI usage is always a good thing.
 
You're not the only guy that has found some positives with dropping HCG, I've stopped it for about 30 days but didn't really "feel" anything and I returned to and continue to use HCG just for the cosmetics of my ball sack. I've previously used as little as 100iu E3.5D, but now 250iu E3.5D.

Yeah, I know what you mean. If I notice sack issues like some others have mentioned about pain I'll definitely keep some handy. But so far I haven't really noticed any issues. My wife actually says she prefers my balls not as saggy as they used to be, so sounds like a win-win for me. ;)
 
Congratulations on your success. It's interesting because some people insist HCG is necessary to feel as good as possible on trt, but obviously there are exceptions. If there's one thing to be taken from your success story though it's that finding a reasonable way to eliminate AI usage is always a good thing.

Thanks! In my opinion, and keep in mind I'm not a trained professional, I don't think HCG is absolutely necessary. Atleast it wasn't for me. Some could definitely benefit from it, but I think it's on a case by case basis. Also, as others have mentioned on this forum, eliminating AI usage as much as possible is definitely a good thing for sure.
 

Vince

Super Moderator
I'm always surprised to hear that's some people do not like to use HCG, it may also have something to do with being a low shbg guy, which I am not. Thanks for the update and I hope you have continued success.
 
I just noticed I put "I switched to ED injections of 15mg of TCyp...". That's actually incorrect, it's 15 units of TCyp on the syringe. That actually equates to 30mg of TCyp ED for a total of 210mg per week. Anyway, just thought I'd share my correction. Thanks.
 
I use 28 per day of Cyp.

Yeah, that seems to be where a lot of people are at, from what I see. To me, it just seems a little easier to draw to an exact number on the syringe like a 5 or a 10. I seriously doubt a few extra mg's makes that much of a difference, but I just find it easier when drawing and injecting, personally.

I'm going to keep trying different doses over the next 7 months until the end of this year to see where I feel best. Then, I'll start with that dose at the beginning of the year next year. Also thinking about switching to Defy next year, as well. I hear great things about them.
 

Vince

Super Moderator
Vince, was there a difference in the way or felt? Or what was the reasoning behind going down to a lower dosage? Was it having an effect on anything in specific?
After injecting 22mg daily for about 7 weeks I did labs. I fasted for 12 plus hours on injection day before I injected, it was also my HCG day. I normally inject about 4am, I did labs at 7:30 am. My total testosterone was 1389 nd/gL range 348-1197 nd/gL. Here's my labs.
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?10351-Vince-s-latest-labs-4-10-17
 

meelord

Member
This is a really good post. I also think the HCG messes with my E2 levels and causes some major moodiness. That said, I think it does help to some degree with libido...and hurts it as well. I am one who worries about cosmetics so having full nuggets matters to me. That said, I am considering canning it. Definitely don't need an ai when not using it and doing daily 20mg/ml of test cyp.
 
Yeah, like I mentioned, it seems as though it definitely works well for some. For me, I don't really see or feel a benefit. I have honestly had better libido and night wood without it. Just taking 30mg of TCyp and nothing else on a daily basis, I have honestly felt the best out of all previous protocols. And, honestly, the nuggets are back to normal after a few days so I honestly think this is the best protocol for me. I'll still keep tweaking with dosage throughout the rest of this year by lowering it some and also increasing it some to see how I feel then. I think switching to daily has actually been the best thing for me, though.
 

TRTME

Member
Sorry for the long winded post, but needed to provide a detailed history to provide better clarity into the situation. I started TRT a few years ago, but didn't really have it dialed in because I was apparently seeing a doctor that knew nothing about TRT. Dosage prescribed was 200mg of TCyp once every two weeks. After a year of agony, I switched to a new doctor in March of 2016 and things got much better. Shortly after that, I found this site and began changing my protocol, based on feedback from many on this forum. Those changes worked very well for me, including; changing syringe size, dosage frequency, and overall dosage. Everything had been going well, but I still felt a bit of a roller coaster ride from week to week. The dosage I had been prescribed by my new doctor was 200mg once per week of TCyp, 1,500iu of HCG once per week, and .5 mg Arimidex twice per week. At that time, I was using 21g needles to draw and 25g-1.5" needles to inject quad. With help from forum members, I switched to 100mg of TCyp E3.5D, 350iu of HCG E3.5D, and .25mg of Arimidex E3.5D with 29g-1/2" needles to inject delt. I've always used 31g 5/8" needles to inject HCG into stomach fat. I was on this new protocol for about 4-5 months. Overall, I felt much better on this new protocol and REALLY enjoyed the thinner/shorter needles, as well. Night wood was good and libido was getting much better, but I knew I still wasn't dialed in.

At that point, I decided to make another change to see if I could feel even better. I switched to ED injections of 15mg of TCyp and kept my HCG at E3.5D along with the .25mg of Arimidex. I started feeling even more stable, but honestly still had somewhat of a roller coaster a few times a week. I am somewhat of a low SHBG guy, so I can feel the difference already with daily injections (latest labs 12 nmol/L - range 10-55 nmol/L). At that point, I decided to completely get rid of the AI and only use it if I felt it was needed. Again, started feeling better and better, but still not quite there. Again, night wood was getting better and libido was getting up there, as well. But it wasn't constant. It was up and down, so still not fully dialed in. I was on this protocol for about 4-5 months, as well. I honestly think I had crashed my E2's with my previous protocol. I was always tired, libido was starting to suffer, erections were not as pronounced (we'll say), and my eyes were always dry and felt tired (even after a good night sleep).

Recently, I tried MENT (Trestolone)...bad mistake. The first 3-4 days were amazing (felt the sweet spot for 3 days in a row), but it was short lived. After that, I started getting headaches and my blood pressure started to spike up pretty high. I stopped taking it immediately.

For the past 3-4 weeks, I decided to completely stop taking my HCG and I think I'm getting more and more dialed in to where I want to be. I had a vasectomy about 12 yrs ago, so I'm obviously not worried about fertility. Also not really worried too much about the testicle atrophy. So, I didn't really think I needed the HCG. I really think this is what's been giving me the roller coaster ride I had been on. Since I changed my protocol 3-4 weeks ago and ONLY taking 15mg of TCyp ED, my night wood has been constant, libido has been the most stable to date, energy and mood is getting better and better. My hematocrit levels are also now stable and constantly at 42, so I don't need to donate blood every 8 weeks anymore.

For me, tweaking my protocol and equipment (thanks to the advice of everyone on the forum) to find what works best for me and makes me feel the best (regardless of numbers on any labs) has been the best thing I could have ever done. The way I feel, I think, has more bearing than any number on lab work. Obviously, we all still need to get labs done to make sure everything is in line and where it should be for important things like hematocrit and lipid panel results, but I'm definitely not going to rely on specific or target T or E2 levels anymore. Eventually, I think I may even try reducing my dosage even lower to see if that helps me even more. I'll try this for about 2-3 months then start reducing and logging again to see where I feel the best. A million thanks to everyone for their input on this forum. It's made a world of difference for me and others, I'm sure.

I know a lot of people like HCG but I personally felt horrible on HCG mono and then test cyp plus HCG. Also the Adex always made my anxiety go through the roof when that was added to combat the high E2. My moods were always all over the place on HCG even when my E2 was in range. I felt great the first few weeks on it but it went down hill from there
 

meelord

Member
It seems like a good idea to consider starting a thread to determine how many folks have opted to stop HCG. I'm definitely feeling like it makes me quicker to anger.
 
I don´t know if my experience of HCG is placebo kind but without it it I feel that my penis is less sensitive meaning harder strokes is necessary than on HCG as well.
 

meelord

Member
Doesn't surprise me to hear that...too many folks have reported sexual benefits from HCG, i.e., there's a real effect at play. That said I have only seen a tiny bit of research around how much HCG spikes T levels.
 
I think HCG bennies play in to my own thoughts that its supposed to enable this downstream hormonal conversion just as LH does but in many many guys that just doesn't happen, its more like injecting straight water, and then there's the guys that seem to love HCG and have benefit to using it. Seems to me that there's some enzyme(?) activity, perhaps, that makes this a plus or minus for the individual. I mean if the downstream was working why are some many of us on Preg and/or DHEA, or Progesterone....????
 
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