1. #1

    Cypionate: Half-Life and Steady-State

    I have been searching threads and thought I saw calculations on accumulation to stability on test cyp injections.

    Other sites show BIW and TIW calculations to stability with troughs and peaks.

    Does anyone have calculations of this?

    I know based on SHBG it differs. I have read stability is reached at 35-47 days.

    I am doing daily injections. I was doing 10mg and dropped to 9mg per day. I have read half lifes can be 5 -8 and also read where they can be a whopping 21 days.

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  3. #2
    Moderator Vince's Avatar
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    After changing my protocol, I try to wait at least 7 weeks before labs. I think most would agree that's how long it takes to become stable.
    https://www.excelmale.com/showthread...alf-life-table
    I am not a medical practitioner. Any suggestions I provide are not medical recommendations and are just my opinions. Please consult with your physician on any matters concerning your health.

  4. #3
    Half life and reaching steady state are tow different but intertwined things. I think to reach a steady state with Cyp and it's half life is close to 6 weeks.

  5. #4
    I am not a physician. Comments offered here are for discussion purposes only. Please consult your doctor before initiating, changing, or stopping any therapy.

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    CW,

    I read that over again. I am doing 10 mg cyp per day. Reading some of Dr. Mark Gordon starting 60-80 mg per week I figured 77 is upper end of that. At 10 mg per day at a true 7 mg of true test in 10 mg I am hitting the upper side of natural production of 4-7 (I don't remember measurement used) per day.

    If doubling that is 154 mg circulating at any giving time at 35-40 days and holding roughly that indefinitely, I would assume this is a lot of T coursing through the body.

    Does this sound correct?

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    On second thought, maybe it would be 10 mg accumulating over 35-40 days, putting the 10 mg at 20 mg circulating at day 35/40. This would put someone roughly at 14 true mg of test after loss of ester daily. This would be double the natural production of 4-7 true test.

    If hitting a natural level of 4-7 endogenous production, I would think 5 mg daily would get someone to 10 mg circulating at 35-40 days and a true 4-7 exogenous daily.

  8. #7
    Moderator Vince's Avatar
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    As you know it's somewhat different for everyone, so I'm just wondering why does it really matter?
    I am not a medical practitioner. Any suggestions I provide are not medical recommendations and are just my opinions. Please consult with your physician on any matters concerning your health.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    As you know it's somewhat different for everyone, so I'm just wondering why does it really matter?
    I was just pondering this too; overcomplicated.

  10. #9
    Moderator Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Carter View Post
    I was just pondering this too; overcomplicated.
    Yes very overcomplicated
    I am not a medical practitioner. Any suggestions I provide are not medical recommendations and are just my opinions. Please consult with your physician on any matters concerning your health.

  11. #10
    themud, you actually seem to understand half-lives really really well. Test cyp's half life is 7-8 days. To reach a steady state of any medication, it takes 5 half lives. Which would be 35-40 days for test cyp. And when you reach a steady state of a medication, you are absolutely correct in regards to the initial dosing being double the amount in your system when a steady state is achieved. So for example, if you were taking 100mg/ week, when a steady state is achieved you would now continually have 200mg in your system even while still only taking 100mg injections per week. 5mg per day is just not going to be enough BTW, even taking into consideration it doubling in your system in 35-40 days. Definitely at minimum stay on 10mg per day. Keep us posted on how things go on that dosage.

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    As you know it's somewhat different for everyone, so I'm just wondering why does it really matter?
    I think you're right Mr. Vince! For the past couple weeks I have been trying to understand half-life and steady state and making sense how so many seem to respond to different dosing schedules and what I was overlooking was how different and unique each person is. Being an engineer, I guess I was trying to fit all this into some orderly and predictable formula that would apply to everyone and your comment was a nice shot of common sense.

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Gman86 View Post
    .... Test cyp's half life is 7-8 days. To reach a steady state of any medication, it takes 5 half lives. Which would be 35-40 days for test cyp. And when you reach a steady state of a medication, you are absolutely correct in regards to the initial dosing being double the amount in your system when a steady state is achieved. So for example, if you were taking 100mg/ week, when a steady state is achieved you would now continually have 200mg in your system even while still only taking 100mg injections per week. ....
    Hello Gman
    it makes total sense to me how the half lives work. I understand why 35-40 days are needed to reach a steady state for Test Cyp, etc. Thinking about this further, it seemed to me that once steady state is achieved, that would imply our T blood levels would be steady and that a every 3.5 day dosing schedule should keep things very steady in the body. Reading further here, quite a few guys show large blood level swings between injections while on a every 3.5 day schedule and they have the lab results that backs that up. This was confusing to me why many would have a 300 pt total T swing between injections and why there are peaks and troughs if steady state is achieved? There has to be more to this and I'm just going to accept that everyone is different. I'd still be very interested to know why there are still big peaks and troughs of T blood levels between injections of a every 3.5 day schedule during steady state, but I'm not going to stress over it any more.

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by themud View Post
    CW,

    I read that over again. I am doing 10 mg cyp per day. Reading some of Dr. Mark Gordon starting 60-80 mg per week I figured 77 is upper end of that. At 10 mg per day at a true 7 mg of true test in 10 mg I am hitting the upper side of natural production of 4-7 (I don't remember measurement used) per day.

    If doubling that is 154 mg circulating at any giving time at 35-40 days and holding roughly that indefinitely, I would assume this is a lot of T coursing through the body.

    Does this sound correct?
    I'm still at a loss as to where that particular rec comes from. If you're taking cyp every day, half life is a moot issue really and as others said, don't over complicate it. Steady state is a different issue than half life, but they are related of course.

    I will posit this, which seems to get overlooked and or ignored, but T, as with many hormones, is not in a steady state in humans, but varies considerably and using esters daily with longer half lives never made much sense to me, and every 3-4 days if using Cyp/Enanth makes more sense and keeps high/lows well within physiological ranges, which do go and down naturally and may even better mimic natural rhythms better. This is an area that needs far more data and currently mostly based on subjective and anecdotal feedback. If I was going to do daily dose, would used Prop, but personally, I want to keep the human pin cushion thing to a minimum. Your mileage may vary...

    If you feel you feel better on that schedule, then carry on

    - Will @ www.BrinkZone.com

  15. #14
    Very good question seaexplorer. Probably a question many guys have. The answer is pretty simple luckily. Once you reach a steady state, this doesn't really mean you have a constant level. Let's use 100mg/ week as an example. When you reach a steady state, on shot day, the max you will have in your system is 200mg. There is still peaks and troughs of testosterone cyp throughout the week regardless of whether you have reached a steady state or not. For example, if you shoot 100mg/ week, and you shoot say every Monday, by Sunday you will only have about 100mg left in your system. To get to the 200mg in your system each week, you are relying on that 100mg shot each Monday to boost the amount in your system from 100mg to 200mg. The 100mg already in your system is the build up of all the half lives of the previous injections. So if instead of 100mg once a week, you did 50mg every 3.5 days, before every shot day you would have probably around 150mg in your system. Being in a steady state doesn't mean your levels are extremely consistent, it just means you have a build up in your system from all the previous injections that now adds to the 100mg per week shot you are doing. Steady state just means on shot day the max milligrams in your system is no longer still going up. Before steady state, each week your max in your system was constantly going up. For example, week one you had 100mg in your system. Week 2 you now had 150mg in your system on shot day. Week 3 you had 175mg in your system on shot day. At week 5 and onward, 200mg in your system on shot day is what your max is now consistently going to be, it will no longer raise from here. That is what steady state means. Your levels will still fluctuate during the week due to the peak and trough times of testosterone cypionate. Test cyp peaks around 24-36 hours, and then will continuously go down. So you actually reach your max of 200mg in your system on Tuesday if you inject 100mg every Monday. So as you can see there are still going to be fluctuations even while in a steady state. You also have to factor in SHBG. Low SHBG makes it so you clear the testosterone quicker. In layman's terms, the testosterone just peaks much quicker and starts to decline in your system quicker. So just keep it simple and know that if your SHBG is low, you are going to most likely need to inject everyday, or EOD. Possibly twice per week, but you would have to try that frequency and see if it works for you. Most likely though EOD is going to be the minimum frequency for TRT to be ideal for you. With high SHBG, twice weekly will be perfect. I wouldn't recommend once per week even with a high SHBG, but it could theoretically work. Only way to know is to try. Hope this helps. Not sure if I explained it good or not lol.

    The takeaway from this though is that the phrase "steady state" is kind of confusing. It just means that the max milligrams in your system on shot day is going to now be steady and consistent. But fluctuations of testosterone levels in-between shots is different. That's peaks and troughs of a medications. Steady state and peaks/ troughs are two completely different things. Just know, even when you've reached a steady state of a medication, peaks and troughs are unchanged. You still have to figure out the best protocol for you to minimize big fluctuations throughout the week. When trying to figure out your dosing frequency, totally ignore the whole steady state thing. That's my best advice. They are two completely different things.
    Last edited by Gman86; 04-21-2017 at 10:51 AM.

  16. #15
    You explained that very well Gman. Thank you very much.

    it would be very interesting to hear what a good Dr that prescribes testosterone treatment has to say and some general clinical observations.

    now, I will go back to reading a bunch of NFL mock drafts so I don't start overthinking this again

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    Will,

    It comes from PeakT.
    I just wondered if SHBG was high, does this effect steady state levels. Low SHBG guys seem to have better results with daily, but what about normal or high SHBG guys? Higher blood level, meaning they are high responders to low Testosterone. I seem to be responding to low dose. I have not had a correct Lab for E2, but will get one this week with discount labs.

    My first post try lab showed high E2 even on the low dose daily injections. I don't take an AI. I was getting sensitivity in nips. That's gone, but 6 weeks and it seems that if I don't take huge amounts of DIM, I don't get morning wood and when I do it needs continuous stimulation to keep it and libido is better on huge amounts of DIM.

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    Post trt lab....

  19. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Will Brink View Post
    I'm still at a loss as to where that particular rec comes from. If you're taking cyp every day, half life is a moot issue really and as others said, don't over complicate it. Steady state is a different issue than half life, but they are related of course.

    I will posit this, which seems to get overlooked and or ignored, but T, as with many hormones, is not in a steady state in humans, but varies considerably and using esters daily with longer half lives never made much sense to me, and every 3-4 days if using Cyp/Enanth makes more sense and keeps high/lows well within physiological ranges, which do go and down naturally and may even better mimic natural rhythms better. This is an area that needs far more data and currently mostly based on subjective and anecdotal feedback. If I was going to do daily dose, would used Prop, but personally, I want to keep the human pin cushion thing to a minimum. Your mileage may vary...

    If you feel you feel better on that schedule, then carry on

    - Will @ www.BrinkZone.com
    Thsi has been rattling around in my mind because I felt certain we'd had a discussion on Dr. Gordon here on EM (and low-dose TRT). Here is that thread.

    https://www.excelmale.com/showthread...ordon-question
    I am not a physician. Comments offered here are for discussion purposes only. Please consult your doctor before initiating, changing, or stopping any therapy.

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by CoastWatcher View Post
    Thsi has been rattling around in my mind because I felt certain we'd had a discussion on Dr. Gordon here on EM (and low-dose TRT). Here is that thread.

    https://www.excelmale.com/showthread...ordon-question
    I have read the thread and it really does nothing to answer the Q. We both know what will happen at doses that low. That's one area he needs to re think his approach.

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Will Brink View Post
    I have read the thread and it really does nothing to answer the Q. We both know what will happen at doses that low. That's one area he needs to re think his approach.
    We see eye to eye on that.
    I am not a physician. Comments offered here are for discussion purposes only. Please consult your doctor before initiating, changing, or stopping any therapy.

  22. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by CoastWatcher View Post
    We see eye to eye on that.
    Known him since we was just beginning his focus on HRT and TBI, but that just make no sense and not supported by the science.

  23. #22
    I was just researching DIM for a few hours. I'm trying to avoid using an AI if possible. What brand of DIM are you using? Also, I too have high SHBG and was also wondering if guy's with high SHBG can benefit from ED or EOD dosing. I'm on E3D currently, but am thinking about switching to EOD to try and minimize E2 spikes.

  24. #23
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    I take Vitamin Shoppe brand DIM, and Natural Source CDG. 2 each in a.m., 2 at lunch, 2 p.m.

    Some might say that is a lot, but again my research says they are excreted in 4-6 hours. So if knocking down E2 is going to happen it will have to happen in those windows. Prescribed dose for those is 1 DIM 2X/day and 2 CDG 2X/day.

    IMO Will and CW are correct. I am going to do my own labs this week. I want the sensitive E test and SHBG, and DHT done.

    I want steady state.

  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Gman86 View Post
    I was just researching DIM for a few hours. I'm trying to avoid using an AI if possible. What brand of DIM are you using?
    Not that you asked me, but I thought I'd put in a word for a brand I've been using and am very happy with. They just came out with a stronger formulation too (250mg vs. 200mg per pill). It's from Smoky Mountain Naturals: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...1?ie=UTF8&psc=

  26. #25
    Thanks Helboi and themud for the replies. The Smoky Mountain Naturals brand was the exact brand I was thinking about getting actually. The only thing that concerns me about DIM is all the stuff I read about it being an androgen and mTOR antagonist. If it wasn't for those two things continually popping up while researching, I would of already ordered it.

    http://atpscience.com/dim-diindolylm...anti-androgen/

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    I do not buy that it is an antagonist. It also has a very short half life, especially if you are hydrating a lot. You can smell it in your urine.

    The problem I have is the cost and efficacy. The cost and knowing it is working, and the only way to tell is to take it and get BW. Looking at the research it states up to 3500 mg. $$$$!!!! Same with CDG and IOC3. Some guys like PMgamer swear (even in with small dose) by it and some have had blood work and anectodally say it doesn't work.

    I dropped it and I have ordered labs with Discountlabs. As soon as I get confirmatin I am going in.

  28. #27
    Moderator Vince's Avatar
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    I was always told that DIM does not work, if you can post your before and after Labs using DIM. It would be interesting to see. I've never use an AI or a DIM, so I have no experience using them.
    I am not a medical practitioner. Any suggestions I provide are not medical recommendations and are just my opinions. Please consult with your physician on any matters concerning your health.

  29. #28
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    DIM works, I went from 127 sensitive to 92 sensitive on 400 Smoky Mountain DIM with no other changes other than addition of DCG, from Dec 27, 16 to March 13, 17. In order to get it lower still we have increased it to 600 daily and gone with daily injections. I am a high converter and also very sensitive to AI, so we continue to try ways to control it without AI.

  30. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Larabee View Post
    DIM works, I went from 127 sensitive to 92 sensitive on 400 Smoky Mountain DIM with no other changes other than addition of DCG, from Dec 27, 16 to March 13, 17. In order to get it lower still we have increased it to 600 daily and gone with daily injections. I am a high converter and also very sensitive to AI, so we continue to try ways to control it without AI.
    Your success is impressive. That's the most significant reduction of e2 due to DIM that I've read of. Congratulations.
    I am not a physician. Comments offered here are for discussion purposes only. Please consult your doctor before initiating, changing, or stopping any therapy.

  31. #30
    Moderator Tom Larabee's Avatar
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    Yes it is pretty significant but not enough yet. I'm hoping it will continue to go down and I am able to also reduce the amount of DIM, but that is all part of the ongoing dial in process.

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