YOUR TESTOSTERONE THERAPY: IF YOU COULD TURN BACK TIME?

DragonBits

Active Member
#21
It is also about maintaining optimal human physiology, if possible. Is it optimal to shut down LH receptors throughout the body?
I don't know, LH receptors are involved with ED and prostate growth, with high LH causing those problems.

Has anyone tried looking into what those other LH receptors are doing?

In aging men, LH typically increases, has that been a good thing?
 

DragonBits

Active Member
#22
I have heard about men, that only inject testosterone for many years and lose their sex drive. I am told when that happens, you need to add in HCG. I believe that it may eventually be necessary for every man on testosterone to include HCG.
If you are secondary, then HCG should increase TT, E2, and probably DHT as well even while you are injecting testosterone. That alone may account for those differences. It should also make the low points between injections higher.

After 5 years I didn't notice any big decline in interest in sex, though I did have some testicular atrophy and zero sperm count. Size and sperm came back after about 5 months of stopping TRT, though TT declined back to pre-TRT levels. At that point I still had an interest in sex, it was diminished to once every two weeks.
 
#23
If you are secondary, then HCG should increase TT, E2, and probably DHT as well even while you are injecting testosterone. That alone may account for those differences. It should also make the low points between injections higher.

After 5 years I didn't notice any big decline in interest in sex, though I did have some testicular atrophy and zero sperm count. Size and sperm came back after about 5 months of stopping TRT, though TT declined back to pre-TRT levels. At that point I still had an interest in sex, it was diminished to once every two weeks.
It's just my opinion but I still think men on trt will eventually need HCG. I just don't think you can let your testicles lay dormant and not have affect how you feel eventually.
 

DragonBits

Active Member
#24
It's just my opinion but I still think men on trt will eventually need HCG. I just don't think you can let your testicles lay dormant and not have affect how you feel eventually.
So you think the main reason HCG increases / renews sexual interest in some men is connected to your testicles and not the other LH receptors?

And that it isn't estrogen, Testosterone or DHT, as we can increase those hormones via other means. Maybe serum hormones are different than when they are produced in the testicles?

As with many things, time will tell. I have some dried (not reconstituted) HCG in the freezer if I want to go back to it.

But what I sort of wonder, even with TRT and HCG, how sexually active can we be at age 75? 80? 90? I seem to recall hugh hefner's wife said he wasn't very active sexually before he died. I once asked an urologist I was seeing in 2015, Dr. Craig Niederberger, the same question, he said his oldest client gave up TRT at age 90.

So for me, another 24 years if I am lucky.
 
#25
I would have tried a HPTA restart and focused more on reducing stress levels along with getting more sleep. I wish I would've tested more hormones at baseline before TRT, and maybe addressing issues that I found after TRT would've

Had that failed, I would have started much lower with frequent IM injections.
 
#26
I've decided to do a restart and get off of TRT for maybe 6 months or so because it's made me feel worse overall. This is what I plan to do if I resume TRT, but if I could go back 14 months and start over, this is what I would've done.

1. Try a restart, focus on lowering stress levels and sleeping more.
2. Do more thorough blood work at baseline and try to sort out other issues first.
3. Resume treatment with Defy and start low with frequent injections.

Overall I feel better off of TRT, although you could argue that I simply haven't found my optimum protocol. I wish I wouldn't have been so fast to hop on TRT in the first place and would have exhausted all other options and gotten a bigger picture of what was going on through labs.
 
#27
I can't complain about much, but I think for those of us that are not over-aromatizers, it is easy to over-focus on estrogen, which I think I did, and under-focus on prolactin, which I also did. Chasteberry every other day has been a big help, likely by lowering prolactin a small bit.
 
#28
I started in January of 2009, almost 10 years ago exactly to the day +/-.

I went for almost an entire year with the primary, which was initially referred and treated by the endo, who was a nightmare. Strangely, that was the BEST experience for me on this journey. If the treatment program would have been even semi mediocre, I might have just rolled with it and never expanded outward & upwards. However, it was such a mess, to the point it really made me have to start looking for answers and educating myself on TRT/HRT and the variables that go with it.

Somewhere during all of that I found a real passion for all of this, which only pushed me to learn more & more about hormones, health & wellness, anti-aging, and to be involved in network communities that it could be paid forward. I discovered that there are very few physicians that truly understand how to not only treat TRT, but knowledgeable with everything else that is related to TRT. Even after 10 years, I think things have improved, but there still seems to be a huge gap with mainstream medical practitioners who don't know how to effectively treat hypogonadism patients, or that even take the subjet seriously.

Like others, I wish I had got more involved with HCG sooner. Plus, I didn't fully understand the dynamics of the thyroid and other areas associated with finding balance, so when/if giving advise, I highly encourage new patients & members to look at the "whole" picture, don't put everything on the almighty testosterone as the be-all, end-all for wellness. It's only one component ... Yes, a critical component, but if your adrenals are shot or your thyroid is in the tank, TRT won't be all that effective .. In fact it could be highly counterproductive if other key areas are out of balance.
 
#29
First and foremost, I would have found this site sooner. I would have also paid more attention to my SHBG and understood how big of a part it plays in dose and frequency. I would have also started with much smaller needles instead of the harpoons I first used and pinning delts early on. I would have also first started with TCyp only until I dialed everything in, then figured out if I truly needed Anastrozole and HCG and worked those in one at a time in slow increments to get it all dialed in. Finally, I would MAKE myself understand that more is not always better. Focus on how you feel and not numbers.

How does one know HCG is necessary? The only obvious necessity is if you want children.
I could be wrong on this and hopefully someone can correct if needed, but I was under the impression it is also helps with testicular atrophy type issues.
 

fifty

Well-Known Member
#30
I would have started lower dose. I really don’t think i needed to triple my T level (and E2...and raise hematocrit to 55) right off the bat.

For some of these starter protolcols it’s like never drinking then being given 4 shots of bacardi 151, weed, and X all at once.
 
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#35
First and foremost, I would have found this site sooner. I would have also paid more attention to my SHBG and understood how big of a part it plays in dose and frequency. I would have also started with much smaller needles instead of the harpoons I first used and pinning delts early on. I would have also first started with TCyp only until I dialed everything in, then figured out if I truly needed Anastrozole and HCG and worked those in one at a time in slow increments to get it all dialed in. Finally, I would MAKE myself understand that more is not always better. Focus on how you feel and not numbers.



I could be wrong on this and hopefully someone can correct if needed, but I was under the impression it is also helps with testicular atrophy type issues.
Testicular atrophy happens to men after 40 even without TRT. I lost about 1 cm in diameter after 5 years of straight TRT. A fertility urologist had measured my testicles at that time in 2015, so I have a "baseline" measurement at my nadir.

It all came back after 5 months of stopping TRT, 3 of those months on clomid.

Yes, HCG should maintain testicular size/function in secondary hpyo men, I don't know what effect it has on primary hypo men as the testicles of those with primary hypogonadism don't respond well to LH/HCG. Maybe some doctor can chime in about that.

But if you don't want children, some might consider this a benefit. I don't think most men notice it unless they are looking for shrinkage, and it takes some time to happen.
 
#36
I would have used smaller injections with shallow IM dosing (we did not know any better in the early 90's). I would have also used HCG right away. I would not have tried finasteride either.
Hey Vince..I am going on 6 months of TRT..50mg every 3.5 days (subq) testosterone enanthate ..I was low on all the testing prior to starting, low TT 14, Free T 240, bioavailable T 5.7 etc..I even had mild anemia..after my first 3 months of blood work on TRT all my bloodwork went up to the optimal ranges TT 27, Free T 546 and bioavailable T of 12.8..even my anemia improved to the point my bloodwork was all midrange..I was feeling great again!

Now after my 6 month bloodwork testing, all my bloodwork numbers came back almost exactly where they were pre TRT? probably why I was feeling worse and worse over Christmas..

About 2 months ago I did make one small change to my injection schedule (due to my hectic work schedule).I work 12 hour shifts as a Police Officer, 4 days on and 4 days off, so I changed my injection schedule to inject my dose the evening prior to the start of my shift (day 1) and at the end of my last shift (day 4)..so I was injecting about every 4-4.5 days..I was also prescribed HGH 2.5 months ago..1.5 IUs 5 days on 2 days off..

Could the change to the injection schedule make that big of a difference and bring my numbers back down to pre TRT levels? even the anemia is back (and I feel like I did pre TRT !)..or could the HGH cause the TRT to be less effective?

Anyways, thanks Vince.I see my doctor on the 22nd of January but thought you may have some ideas or insight..by the way, I just started back to the 3.5 days injection schedule again..

Regards, Mark
I would have used smaller injections with shallow IM dosing (we did not know any better in the early 90's). I would have also used HCG right away. I would not have tried finasteride either.
 
#37
please do not think i am bashing TRT in general...i know many guys enjoy great benefits from TRT and i am very happy for them...things are now turning around for me thank God, but the beginning of my TRT journey was the beginning of the most difficult struggle of my life for many reasons i will not bore you with....but i will say:
1) if you are a good candidate for hcg monotherapy, STRONGLY consider it
2) do not fall into the trap of thinking the TRT is a panacea...that it will solve all of your libido/erection/brainfog/zestforlife issues and if it hasn't yet you just need higher levels (i got mine up beyond 1000 with VERY little benefit and considerable complications)
3) whatever protocol you ultimately employ, PLEASE shoot for moderate testosterone levels and titrate up only if neccessary (see 2 above)
4) do everything in your power to avoid blindly incorporating an estrogen blocker just because everyone else does (many people benefit from it but many do not need it....it really bleeped me up!)

Lastly, I honestly believe this is an awesome forum with many guys trying to genuinely help eachother...i welcome anybody's non-prescriptive/diagnostic reply...but i would respectfully ask... if you are not a physician who is well versed in TRT please do not reply with prescriptive/diagnostic advice

good luck to everyone!
 
#38
I would have joined Defy Medical and would have eventually found an (20-22mg) EOD protocol to be best for me do to lower SHBG in the low 20's. I would also find I tolerate aromasin better than anastrozole and take it infrequently or as needed until I dropped excess weight.
What does 20mg EOD do for you? You take hCG with that too?
 
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